Irish Welfare Trap Criticised

OldNotWIse

Have the junkies on Abbey Street only recently become unemployed because of the recession?

Terry1985

Celly Smunt wrote: »

And we go in a circle again.

Where are these magical jobs going to appear from when the dole is cut?

that's easy, taxi driving.

steddyeddy

As revealed by the Irish government before a budget? There's no way that can be objective.

blackwhite

old hippy wrote: »

I wonder how a family could survive on £100 a week

Are you on the dole?

Reducing the dole to €100 per week wouldn't force any family to live on just that. If there's two parents they'd be getting €100 each, plus child benefits, as well as probably rent assistance (or else be in council-provided housing), fuel allowance, supplementary welfare allowance and possibly more.

But you already knew that, and were just at the usual :rolleyes:

Highflyer13

People who refused to work and relied on sw payments when jobs were plentiful should be cut of the dole asap and made swim by themselves. I know some of these people and for them its a lifestyle choice and it pisses me off that a huge portion of my weekly wage goes into their pockets. Maybe if they were cut off they would magically find a job or be forced to emigrate to find work.

Of course I agree for recently unemployed in the last few years and disabled sw is a necessity for them and they are fully entitled to it.

darkpagandeath

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Cure the jobs problem? Yes that would be the solution. I don't know that it is only a % of a%. When we had hundreds of thousands of people coming here from abroad to work (the jobs problems was cured back then) we still had around 4% unemployment.

•The unemployment rate in Ireland increased from a low point of 3.6% in 2001 to 4.3% in 2006. Ireland had the third lowest unemployment rate in the EU 27 in 2006 at just over half of the EU 27 average of 7.9%. The long-term unemployment rate in Ireland was 1.4% in 2005, which was lower than the EU27 average of 4%.

And large numbers are still arriving from abroad to work eventhough the jobs cure turned out to be only temporary.

I'm sorry I'm still amazed at the hundreds of thousands? Were are the hoards of so called imports hanging out. I must go check my back garden see if they’re in there

steddyeddy

Anglo Irish, Lowry party whip politics, corruption, bribes, Bertie and all the rest and some people keep focusing on he bloody dole

Celly Smunt

blackwhite wrote: »

Reducing the dole to €100 per week wouldn't force any family to live on just that. If there's two parents they'd be getting €100 each, plus child benefits, as well as probably rent assistance (or else be in council-provided housing), fuel allowance, supplementary welfare allowance and possibly more.

But you already knew that, and were just at the usual :rolleyes:

You do realise that not everybody in Ireland has those benefits,nor children,nor any of the other stuff that everybody who isn't on the dole believe people have right?

blackwhite

Celly Smunt wrote: »

You do realise that not everybody in Ireland has those benefits,nor children,nor any of the other stuff that everybody who isn't on the dole believe people have right?

Someone asked how a FAMILY would survive on €100 per week if the dole was cut to that - hence the mention of children.

If a family's only income is what they get from welfare then they are, at a minimum, going to be entitled to more than just JSA/JSB.

Try to read what's been quoted in a post before jumping in with 2 feet

repsol

I think the problem is the number of people on the dole AND working. To combat this I would suggest making all claimants sign on daily at the social welfare NOT the post office. Those who are high, drunk or wearing clothing suggesting they are working ( overalls etc) should not be allowed sign. Miss a day you lose a days dole. You miss 2 days you lose the weeks dole. Give them the signing on time for the following day when they sign so they cannot organise their nixers in advance like they can now. Only a Doctors cert or a job interview would be acceptable excuses.
Won't be a popular one with claimants but if the numbers aren't drastically cut at some stage the genuine people are going to have their money cut to subsidise the spongers

darkpagandeath

So you spend alot of your money on bus fare traveling to and from the dole office seems fair

Celly Smunt

blackwhite wrote: »

Someone asked how a FAMILY would survive on €100 per week if the dole was cut to that - hence the mention of children.

If a family's only income is what they get from welfare then they are, at a minimum, going to be entitled to more than just JSA/JSB.

Try to read what's been quoted in a post before jumping in with 2 feet

So how is reducing the cash flow for a family going to help anybody exactly?

blackwhite

Celly Smunt wrote: »

So how is reducing the cash flow for a family going to help anybody exactly?

I didn't advocate doing that.

Again - try reading what's been posted :rolleyes:

repsol

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So you spend alot of your money on bus fare traveling to and from the dole office seems fair

People who work have to pay bus fares in and out of work. That's life. Can't expect spongers to pay their way of course. Probably want a free pass for the bus to go with the free house, medical card etc

Celly Smunt

blackwhite wrote: »

I didn't advocate doing that.

Again - try reading what's been posted :rolleyes:

"Reducing the dole to €100 per week wouldn't force any family to live on just that. If there's two parents they'd be getting €100 each, plus child benefits, as well as probably rent assistance (or else be in council-provided housing), fuel allowance, supplementary welfare allowance and possibly more."

Right so,we reduce the dole for a family.So bang there's 172 euro gone out of the house per week.Right?,are you still with me here yes?

They use their rent assistance to pay the rent (unlikely for a 3-4 bedroom house,but sure their remaining dole money could prop up the rest :rolleyes:).Who needs food? Still there,yes,grand we'll move on so?

they'll feed,cloth and support their children to school on the childrens allowance (somehow).You're still with me right?

the fuel allowance will somehow stretch far enough to heat and put electricity into the home for 4 people,especially through the winter. (i'm gathering you're talking 2 parents and 2 children)

and the supplementary welfare allowance will magically pay for the rest.


Right now,supposing this miraculous family were somehow entitled and receiving all these benefits they still wouldn't be able to make ends meet.God forbid they had a mortgage.(but sure if you have a mortgage you'd probably be to well off to be getting the dole right :rolleyes:)

It seems like people will only be happy with social welfare when the recipients are starving,freezing and on the verge of homelessness.

wexie

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So you spend alot of your money on bus fare traveling to and from the dole office seems fair

Walk?!

Not like they don't have the time ?

dark crystal

repsol wrote: »

People who work have to pay bus fares in and out of work. That's life. Can't expect spongers to pay their way of course. Probably want a free pass for the bus to go with the free house, medical card etc

Who gets free houses? Are they the same people who get the free prams and cars?

wexie

dark crystal wrote: »

Who gets free houses? Are they the same people who get the free prams and cars?

Some 85,000 people get rent supplement, which is worth up to €1,000 a month for a couple with two children in Dublin, and €400 a month in Donegal for the same-sized family.

might not be free but it's a nice discount off market rates

Annasopra

dark crystal wrote: »

Who gets free houses? Are they the same people who get the free prams and cars?

Yeah they're also the ones who get free mobile phones

darkpagandeath

repsol wrote: »

People who work have to pay bus fares in and out of work. That's life. Can't expect spongers to pay their way of course. Probably want a free pass for the bus to go with the free house, medical card etc

Ah i see check. The JSA €188 a week is at the discretion of the taxpayer? what you spend it on? And if i want you to spend it all on bus fare you will? only Oap and Disabled are entitled to the bus pass. Why are people obsessed with everyone having a free house rent allowance does not pay for it all.

Celly Smunt

wexie wrote: »

might not be free but it's a nice discount off market rates

I'm pretty sure nobody who gets rent supplement gets near 1000 a month.

repsol

dark crystal wrote: »

Who gets free houses? Are they the same people who get the free prams and cars?

If you live in a council house and claim rent allowance and the dole which you use to pay your artificially low, subsidised rent that's a free house . Correct me if I'm wrong Dark Crystal

Celly Smunt

repsol wrote: »

If you live in a council house and claim rent allowance and the dole which you use to pay your artificially low, subsidised rent that's a free house . Correct me if I'm wrong Dark Crystal

As far as i'm aware,it's not possible to claim rent allowance on a council house (i could be wrong,but if true i'd support cutting that bollocks)

darkpagandeath

Ahhh I see were back to everyone on the dole is the same again? In a free house free car watching TV drinking going to the betting office.

dark crystal

wexie wrote: »

might not be free but it's a nice discount off market rates

What's the alternative for low income families then? No lending institution will give them a mortgage they can't afford, there aren't enough council houses by far, so how else will they manage to keep a roof over their heads?

It's not an ideal situation for anyone, but spouting that free house rubbish like the other poster serves no purpose except to exacerbate an already prejudiced view against the unemployed and families on low incomes. Not everyone is out to screw the taxpayer like some wish to make out.

Celly Smunt

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ahhh I see were back to everyone on the dole is the same again? In a free house free car watching TV drinking going to the betting office.

Don't forget 2 foreign holidays a year including christmas shopping in New York.

Annasopra

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Don't forget 2 foreign holidays a year including christmas shopping in New York.

Plus the leaving prams constantly on the bus cos they get new ones

smellmepower

So cut the dole and encourage more people to participate in the black economy.Future FG minister right there!

suicide_circus

Reduce the amount of minimum wage employers have to pay while increasing the min wage. Bare with me.

So the min wage goes to 9.95 but employers pay 7.65 and the state pays 2.00.

The minimum wage goes up, employers costs go down, employers can employ more people, more people can get off SW dependence, SW bill goes down....problem?

shopaholic01

repsol wrote: »

I think the problem is the number of people on the dole AND working. To combat this I would suggest making all claimants sign on daily at the social welfare NOT the post office. Those who are high, drunk or wearing clothing suggesting they are working ( overalls etc) should not be allowed sign. Miss a day you lose a days dole. You miss 2 days you lose the weeks dole. Give them the signing on time for the following day when they sign so they cannot organise their nixers in advance like they can now. Only a Doctors cert or a job interview would be acceptable excuses.
Won't be a popular one with claimants but if the numbers aren't drastically cut at some stage the genuine people are going to have their money cut to subsidise the spongers

How do you suggest we pay the extra staff that would be required for this? Where would it take place - in the already over crowded SW offices?

dark crystal

repsol wrote: »

If you live in a council house and claim rent allowance and the dole which you use to pay your artificially low, subsidised rent that's a free house . Correct me if I'm wrong Dark Crystal

I live in a council house, but I'm not on the dole, nor collect rent allowance (you cannot claim rent allowance for a council house, btw). Trust me, it's not a free house at all.

Annasopra

Celly Smunt wrote: »

As far as i'm aware,it's not possible to claim rent allowance on a council house (i could be wrong,but if true i'd support cutting that bollocks)

You're correct. Rent supplement is not given to people living in Council Houses

Celly Smunt

suicide_circus wrote: »

Reduce the amount of minimum wage employers have to pay while increasing the min wage. Bare with me.

So the min wage goes to 9.95 but employers pay 7.65 and the state pays 2.00.

The minimum wage goes up, employers costs go down, employers can employ more people, more people can get off SW dependence, SW bill goes down....problem?

That's something i have put forward before.But that may cause employers to sack their current employees to get a piece of the new cheap labour.

gifted

[QUOTE=dark crystal;86231884]What's the alternative for low income families then? No lending institution will give them a mortgage they can't afford, there aren't enough council houses by far, so how else will they manage to keep a roof over their heads?

It's not an ideal situation for anyone, but spouting that free house rubbish like the other poster serves no purpose except to exacerbate an already prejudiced view against the unemployed and families on low incomes. Not everyone is out to screw the taxpayer like some wish to make out.[/QUOTE]

wild guess but how about getting a job and renting a house and don't give me any crap about no jobs out there, plenty jobs out there, but people won't work those jobs cos they get the same or more on social.

darkpagandeath

Celly Smunt wrote: »

That's something i have put forward before.But that may cause employers to sack their current employees to get a piece of the new cheap labour.

You mean there are some unscrupulous employers who would abuse a system designed to help everyone :P

Radiosonde

suicide_circus wrote: »

Reduce the amount of minimum wage employers have to pay while increasing the min wage. Bare with me.

So the min wage goes to 9.95 but employers pay 7.65 and the state pays 2.00.

The minimum wage goes up, employers costs go down, employers can employ more people, more people can get off SW dependence, SW bill goes down....problem?

We don't need to be naked for this.

Celly Smunt

Radiosonde wrote: »

We don't need to be naked for this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sxtHODemi0

Radiosonde

Celly Smunt wrote: »

As far as i'm aware,it's not possible to claim rent allowance on a council house (i could be wrong,but if true i'd support cutting that bollocks)

You don't, they charge rates based on a person's ability to pay, so they pay next to no rent if they're on welfare. RA was a sort of stopgap while they sorted out social housing, I think, only they never sorted it out and the stopgap is still with us.

BattleCorp

I know plenty of people on the dole and a lot of of them don't want work. They have things too handy as it is.

Two people related to me don't give a bollix, no interest in working. Why should they when they get money for free for staying in bed, drinking cans, going to the gym and pretty much laughing at me when I get up for work at 5.30am because they can stay in bed as long as they like. One of them has done this for the past 20 years. He has never ever seriously tried to get a job. And after doing fcukall for that long, who'd give him a job.


Now don't get me wrong, I also know plenty of people who would take the arm off you for a job to try and get off the couch and get back earning a wage again.

I'll be shot for saying this but nobody should get stuff for nothing. If you are on the dole, you should have to do some sort of community work on the days that you don't have job interviews etc. I'm not talking about slave labour or killing yourself working, just doing something light that might benefit the community. Maybe work 2 hours per day 4 days a week. That would stop welfare tourists and make it harder for lads to work and sign. And it would encourage lazy layabouts to get out of bed and do something for the community. If you aren't a lazy layabout, then you should have no bother doing a couple of hours work to earn your dole.

Bring in proof that you have a job interview that day, off you go to the interview. Don't bother getting out of bed, fcuk you, you lose a days dole money.

What's so wrong with an idea like that?

Celly Smunt

BattleCorp wrote: »

I know plenty of people on the dole and a lot of of them don't want work. They have things too handy as it is.

Two people related to me don't give a bollix, no interest in working. Why should they when they get money for free for staying in bed, drinking cans, going to the gym and pretty much laughing at me when I get up for work at 5.30am because they can stay in bed as long as they like. One of them has done this for the past 20 years. He has never ever seriously tried to get a job. And after doing fcukall for that long, who'd give him a job.


Now don't get me wrong, I also know plenty of people who would take the arm off you for a job to try and get off the couch and get back earning a wage again.

I'll be shot for saying this but nobody should get stuff for nothing. If you are on the dole, you should have to do some sort of community work on the days that you don't have job interviews etc. I'm not talking about slave labour or killing yourself working, just doing something light that might benefit the community. Maybe work 2 hours per day 4 days a week. That would stop welfare tourists and make it harder for lads to work and sign. And it would encourage lazy layabouts to get out of bed and do something for the community. If you aren't a lazy layabout, then you should have no bother doing a couple of hours work to earn your dole.

Bring in proof that you have a job interview that day, off you go to the interview. Don't bother getting out of bed, fcuk you, you lose a days dole money.

What's so wrong with an idea like that?

It makes sense,that's whats wrong!

darkpagandeath

Job bridge but to many employers have been taking the P*ss you cant do anything here for the greater good without people abusing it

computer44

I agree on this point, if your able and healthy why are people refusing training courses.

Call Me Jimmy

folan wrote: »

I wasnt suggesting that most were taking the piss, i believe that that is a % of a %, as you say. Sorry, i wasnt clear.

What I mean is how the social welfare, not just the dole, is broken. Vital resources do not make it to those who need them most because of inefficiency and a lack of means testing, among other issues.

Why even bother givingn a **** about a% of % who abuse the system when there would be equally as much waste in every other department?

Celly Smunt

computer44 wrote: »

I agree on this point, if your able and healthy why are people refusing training courses.

Because a load of them are utter bollocks.FAS should be scrapped.

SCOOP 64

BattleCorp wrote: »

I know plenty of people on the dole and a lot of of them don't want work. They have things too handy as it is.

Two people related to me don't give a bollix, no interest in working. Why should they when they get money for free for staying in bed, drinking cans, going to the gym and pretty much laughing at me when I get up for work at 5.30am because they can stay in bed as long as they like. One of them has done this for the past 20 years. He has never ever seriously tried to get a job. And after doing fcukall for that long, who'd give him a job.


Now don't get me wrong, I also know plenty of people who would take the arm off you for a job to try and get off the couch and get back earning a wage again.

I'll be shot for saying this but nobody should get stuff for nothing. If you are on the dole, you should have to do some sort of community work on the days that you don't have job interviews etc. I'm not talking about slave labour or killing yourself working, just doing something light that might benefit the community. Maybe work 2 hours per day 4 days a week. That would stop welfare tourists and make it harder for lads to work and sign. And it would encourage lazy layabouts to get out of bed and do something for the community. If you aren't a lazy layabout, then you should have no bother doing a couple of hours work to earn your dole.

Bring in proof that you have a job interview that day, off you go to the interview. Don't bother getting out of bed, fcuk you, you lose a days dole money.

What's so wrong with an idea like that?

Something like a CE SCHEME.

repsol

shopaholic01 wrote: »

How do you suggest we pay the extra staff that would be required for this? Where would it take place - in the already over crowded SW offices?

Obviously you cannot use the same offices that deal with new applicants. Use buildings like Gardiner street exchange in Dublin and staff them with redeployed civil servants so minimal extra costs which would be dwarfed by the savings on dole payments. Signing on is a very quick process so overcrowding would not be an issue. Give everyone a 1 hour window to arrive , open through lunch etc. If it takes a while so what? If a person is working they are required to put in about 8 hours every day. If a dole claimant cannot spare a similar amount of time, what are they doing elsewhere, working perhaps?

brokenarms

When I got laid off a couple of years back, it was no easy ticket. Dropping from a decent 40k income to 190 a week was like being punched in the face.

I then got a seasonal part time job on the X and O system . This was the worst thing I could have done. I got means tested on the best weeks wages of the last year.
My benefit was cut to 30 euro. No matter how much begging up at the SW office they would not give me a penny more.
I have a mortgage and family with a partner who was making 24k a year. I was so angry as I contributed way more than most people all my life.

We nearly went into arrears with the house and maxed or only line of credit. Visa. (which im still paying for . GRRRR)

Its horrible being unemployed .

I now am gainfully employed but know how painful most people JSB or JSA have it. I would not advise them to leave it unless they have something good to go to though. The dole will screw ya if you need a supplament .

SCOOP 64

suicide_circus wrote: »

Reduce the amount of minimum wage employers have to pay while increasing the min wage. Bare with me.

So the min wage goes to 9.95 but employers pay 7.65 and the state pays 2.00.

The minimum wage goes up, employers costs go down, employers can employ more people, more people can get off SW dependence, SW bill goes down....problem?

Seems like a good idea, but the new jobplus offer for the long term unemployed ,€7,500 for any employer who takes on someone on dole for 12 months or €10,000 for someone on dole for 24 months, should encourage, but how many employers know about it, should you put a link on your cv to jobplus for the employer?

hoodwinked

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Only the employed and the smug ever call for the dole to be reduced. And the only reason they call for it is because they enjoy seeing people in pain.

im not employed or smug, but if you work it out,


most 'full time' workers in a retail supermarket i know get 20 hour weeks these days, down from the previous 40+ hours they used work,


which means on minimum wage they earn less than those on the dole, €188/20 = €9.40ph and they are taxed on that, while those on welfare are not, they pay travel costs, lunch costs, all of which are unavoidable if they are going to work.


solution a = Raise minimum wage or stop taxing those on below welfare hourly rates,

solution b = lower welfare until you reach the point where the 20 hour minimum wage job raises your income.

also this retailer is still hiring because they can not find anyone who will come off welfare to work those shifts.

shopaholic01

hoodwinked: What is the benefit to the retailer of only offeriing 20 hour contracts? Do employees have fewer rights?