Advertisements in Online Directories and phonebooks

taber

I have a concern with publications for example, online directories and websites displaying goods and services that actually may not be genuine professional,qualified people claiming to provide advertised services.

An incident took place recently in which an elderly family member was persuaded to permit someone to start a job on the premises. They displayed a well known directory logo on their vehicle and produced a leaflet with the same, this contributed to her belief that they were genuine trades people, it was transparent on arrival of other relatives that these so called roofing contractors were not genuine and steps were taken to have them desist.

Has anyone had similar experiences?

Menas

Someone turned up to do a job with an eircom phonebook logo on their van and leaflet?

Cabaal

If it was the golden pages or something then in all honesty this is no mark of quality or dependability. You'd be wrong to assume it is.

When it comes to tradesmen word of mouth is best, failing that you should always ask to see work they've done and speak to people in the places they've done work in

Any repetable tradesmen will have no issue with this,

taber

I understand what your saying Cabaal, but when people are advertising in well known directories/ websites it may convince less well informed and vulnerable people to engage in their services. Since the onus is now on homeowners to use safe contractors or potentially face criminal charges(the new regulation recently signed into law by Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Richard Burton TD, agencies should require the correct credentials of clients before publishing their advertisement?

taber

They had a well know directory logo on the van and leaflets with their name attached and cold called soliciting for business

L1011

I don't see how a 'well known directory logo' suggests anything at all? Definitely does not guarantee or even vaguely hint at trustworthiness.

Menas

The idea that every advertiser should check the credentials of every advert is nuts.
If I advertise a Barney DVD on eBay should I expect eBay to come knocking on my door to check that the DVD is authentic and really is Barney?


Caveat emptor holds firm. If you are buying a service from someone you must satisfy yourself that they can do the job for you. No one else can provide that guarantee unless they have been officially certified by some agency.
Its a big bad world out there.

Cabaal

taber wrote: »

I understand what your saying Cabaal, but when people are advertising in well known directories/ websites it may convince less well informed and vulnerable people to engage in their services. Since the onus is now on homeowners to use safe contractors or potentially face criminal charges(the new regulation recently signed into law by Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Richard Burton TD, agencies should require the correct credentials of clients before publishing their advertisement?

But its only a directory, a listing of service providers. Nothing more,

It makes no guarantee's on any level regarding the workmanship of anybody listed in the directory and never has, new regulations regarding work being compliant have no affect on this.

I don't have a copy of the goldenpages next to me but their website does state:

3.2 Use of www.goldenpages.ie is at your own risk. FCR Media Limited is not an agent for and does not vouch for those persons, companies and other organisations whose goods or services may be displayed, advertised or referred to in, or whose website may be linked to from, www.goldenpages.ie, nor for the availability, suitability, reliability, quality or prices of such goods or services. All users should satisfy themselves as to the exact details regarding any goods or services referred to on www.goldenpages.ie.

http://www.goldenpages.ie/q/business/static/terms.html

I'm afraid that your argument for wanting the directory company to take a level of responsibility is like buying a tv from electrical retailer who's details you found in the directory and then complaining that its the directory's owners fault for not vetting the retailer's because you experience poor customer service.

The issue would be with the retailer here, the same as your issue is with the contractor.

If however you still doubt this then perhaps check it the national consumer agency,

dudara

Consumers need to take some level of personal responsibility, rather than seeking to pass the blame elsewhere. All the logo meant what that they had paid a fee to the directory. Nothing else. And that's even assuming that their use of the logo was genuine.

All the old-fashioned directory offers is a listing of people who claim to offer the service. After that, it's up to the consumer to select the company/person they think is best for the job.

There are newer directory services where tradesmen can sign up and be rated, that's probably a more effective way of doing research.

taber

My question is how are professional/services advertisements that go in to directories etc proved to be compliant with the Consumer Protection 2007

The main legislation concerning advertisements in Ireland is the Consumer Protection Act, 2007. This Act sets out, among other things, various rules that apply to claims made about goods and services. In particular this Act protects consumers from misleading advertisements and ensures that trade is fair. Under the Act it is an offence for an advertiser/trader to make false claims about goods, services or prices. All types of communications that promote goods or services are covered by the Act. consumerhelp.ie

I am referring to professional adverts that say they are" professional and qualified in their field" not personals where you sell your own things

Menas

taber wrote: »

My question is how are professional/services advertisements that go in to directories etc proved to be compliant with the Consumer Protection 2007

The main legislation concerning advertisements in Ireland is the Consumer Protection Act, 2007. This Act sets out, among other things, various rules that apply to claims made about goods and services. In particular this Act protects consumers from misleading advertisements and ensures that trade is fair. Under the Act it is an offence for an advertiser/trader to make false claims about goods, services or prices. All types of communications that promote goods or services are covered by the Act. consumerhelp.ie

I am referring to professional adverts that say they are" professional and qualified in their field" not personals where you sell your own things

But none of those provisions cover the medium used for advertising. Your issue is with the provider of the services to you, not the directory.

coylemj

taber wrote: »

I am referring to professional adverts that say they are" professional and qualified in their field" not personals where you sell your own things

'Professional' simply means that's what they do for a living and what does 'qualified' mean in the context of repairing a roof? It means absolutely nothing and you need to recognise that. You need to be a bit more sceptical when it comes to accepting/believing what you see or hear in advertising.

There is a well known company currently advertising a home improvement product on the radio and making lavish claims about their 'expertise' while at the same time there is a thread on boards.ie slagging them off big time for shoddy workmanship.

Roof maintanence seems to be the speciality of a lot of cowboys, probably because the customer can't inspect the work when it's finished and doesn't find out that they are the victim of gross incompetence until the next downpour.

Fries-With-That

taber wrote: »

I have a concern with publications for example, online directories and websites displaying goods and services that actually may not be genuine professional,qualified people claiming to provide advertised services.

An incident took place recently in which an elderly family member was persuaded to permit someone to start a job on the premises. They displayed a well known directory logo on their vehicle and produced a leaflet with the same, this contributed to her belief that they were genuine trades people, it was transparent on arrival of other relatives that these so called roofing contractors were not genuine and steps were taken to have them desist.

Has anyone had similar experiences?

Hi Taber,

I can see where someone might be concerned that an elderly relative had allowed a trades person start a job without checking for references.

I don't understand how it was apparent to the the other relatives that the workers were not genuine, were these relatives roofing contractors with the ability to assess the work being done by the individuals that were advertising themselves as roofing contractors.

If you suspect that they were using the logos of a well known directory in a fraudulent manner , perhaps you should pass on their details to the directory.

If they were going door to door and had a van and literature advertising their contact details etc, they weren't trying to hide what they were doing, so maybe they were genuine.

In my experience the casual caller looking to clean yer chutes or wash yer windows doesn't have literature or a van with any kind of a logo on it.

coylemj

Fries-With-That wrote: »

In my experience the casual caller looking to clean yer chutes or wash yer windows doesn't have literature or a van with any kind of a logo on it.

Which is precisely why the OP's realtives fell into the trap they did.

The guys stuck the logo (of a well known trade directory) on the side of the van which gave them the aura of respectablity and on that basis the OP's relatives engaged them to do work with absolutley no checks on their track record or competence and they never asked them for local references.

Clearly Joe Duffy has had an effect in this area but all it has meant is additional revenue for (well known trade directory) for the use of their logo.

L1011

coylemj wrote: »

Clearly Joe Duffy has had an effect in this area but all it has meant is additional revenue for (well known trade directory) for the use of their logo.

You're making a massive assumption that they paid - rather than just slapping the logo on regardless.

coylemj

MYOB wrote: »

You're making a massive assumption that they paid - rather than just slapping the logo on regardless.

A 'MASSIVE' asumption?

Or just a common or garden assumption?

Getting the artwork faked and an allweather vehicle sticker manufactured would probably be more expensive than paying for the 'genuine' article.

L1011

coylemj wrote: »

A 'MASSIVE' asumption?

Or just a common or garden assumption?

Getting the artwork faked and an allweather vehicle sticker manufactured would probably be more expensive than paying for the 'genuine' article.

Yes, it is a massive assumption.

During the boom there were thousands of vans going around with fake, often extremely outdated or even wrong country, guild logos on them.

And no, it won't cost very much for either of those - have you priced a van wrap recently?

coylemj

MYOB wrote: »

And no, it won't cost very much for either of those - have you priced a van wrap recently?

Can't say I have. But who produces fake van stickers for directories - are the genuine ones so expensive that there's a trade in fakes?

L1011

coylemj wrote: »

Can't say I have. But who produces fake van stickers for directories - are the genuine ones so expensive that there's a trade in fakes?

Anyone with the appropriate kit who wants/needs a bit of cash. And that's quite a few people.

taber

Alot of directories are not just a listing of names and numbers like before, they have full size advertisements and notes about services. If a doctor for example is listed and says "specialist in travel vaccinations", what do they need to substantiate this claim to advertise this in the directory or can anything go in? It not just listings, its advertising.

taber

Fries-With-That wrote: »

Hi Taber,

I can see where someone might be concerned that an elderly relative had allowed a trades person start a job without checking for references.

I don't understand how it was apparent to the the other relatives that the workers were not genuine, were these relatives roofing contractors with the ability to assess the work being done by the individuals that were advertising themselves as roofing contractors.

If you suspect that they were using the logos of a well known directory in a fraudulent manner , perhaps you should pass on their details to the directory.

If they were going door to door and had a van and literature advertising their contact details etc, they weren't trying to hide what they were doing, so maybe they were genuine.

In my experience the casual caller looking to clean yer chutes or wash yer windows doesn't have literature or a van with any kind of a logo on it.

Hi, it became apparent when we heard they asked for €350 for a job without even inspecting the roof, and 5 minutes later claimed it would be €1050,along with other details, we haven't rang the telephone numbers I will let you know if we do.

Cabaal

taber wrote: »

Alot of directories are not just a listing of names and numbers like before, they have full size advertisements and notes about services. If a doctor for example is listed and says "specialist in travel vaccinations", what do they need to substantiate this claim to advertise this in the directory or can anything go in? It not just listings, its advertising.

Ok but again its not the directory's issue, they don't decided what information goes into the ad.

Ok take this example,
Eircom run an advert on RTE which advertised a Broadband service but misrepresented the monthly charge people would pay as part of a promotion.

Now RTE get paid for the advert, but would you consider it their fault if you were mislead or would you blame eircom?. Based on this thread you'd blame RTE.

However, in reality somebody complains to the ASAI about the advert, then ASAI take action but this is against Eircom.

Eircom are told to edit the advert and depending on the level of the issue their could be other actions taken.

In all honesty you are barking up the wrong tree on this issue,

Thoie

taber wrote: »

A lot of directories are not just a listing of names and numbers like before, they have full size advertisements and notes about services. If a doctor for example is listed and says "specialist in travel vaccinations", what do they need to substantiate this claim to advertise this in the directory or can anything go in? It not just listings, its advertising.

Yes, but it's not up to the newspaper/directory/website to verify credentials. I can pay 6 different places right now to put an ad in saying "Thoie - world renowned surgeon and tiler. Professional face licking." It means nothing. If you employ me on the basis of that ad, and find that I'm none of these things, then you report me to the ASAI. As long as I'm paying for my ad the newspaper/website/phonebook doesn't care. When the ASAI catches up with me (on foot of your complaint that my face licking was nowhere near professional standard , for example), they can force me to take down the ads.

foggy_lad

There was some programs on the BBC recently which showed how their trading standards office were targeting and taking successful prosecutions against the same type of cowboys the OP is talking about. some of these travelling workmen even had notebooks containing details of thousands of pensioners and other elderly and infirm people around the country with many marked for repeat calls.

The only way to protect fully against these conmen is for family or friends/neighbours to keep in touch on a daily basis with elderly relatives and elderly neighbours, especially those that live alone. Even if family cant be there it could be as easy as asking a neighbour to drop in for a chat for a few minutes each day, someone living alone might not mention workmen during a telephone call but they almost certainly would if sitting down with a cuppa having a chat.

taber

I don't know why genuine businesses would bother to pay money to go into these directories, when any chancer could be in it, its not money well spent, just in my opinion.

coylemj

taber wrote: »

I don't know why genuine businesses would bother to pay money to go into these directories, when any chancer could be in it, its not money well spent, just in my opinion.

You do have a point, the same could apply to lots of trades and professions like builders, plumbers, solicitors, dentists - in general terms the successful ones don't need flashy listings in trade directories, they rely almost exclusively on word of mouth for new business and have plenty of existing customers/patients/clients to keep them busy. This means that they never need to actively go looking for new customers.

It's often the ones with flashy listings that need the business most so you'd ask yourself why that it is and in the case of builders, why they need to cold call elderly people who are less likely to be aggressive about contract negotiation, asking for local references etc. The reason they're continuously looking for new business is because they never get repeat business for reasons that don't require a Ph.D to figure out so they need to be avoided at all costs.

I don't mind lads knocking on my door offering to clean up the front garden or powerwash my drive (provided they have decent looking equipment and don't ask to borrow my hose!) but I wouldn't dream of dealing with any cold caller offering building services.

taber

Further to our enquires into the matter of ungenuine construction/builders/tradespersons soliciting for business we have been onto some of our local TD's and put forward the following, lobbying to have the law for "cold calling" changed to help society in general and protect old and vulnerable people who are targeted by door to door scams.
If the law could be changed to allow a cooling off period before its legal to accept payment for work touted for door to door From what I understand law this is currently in place in Perth in Australia.
Perth scammers
http://www.oneperth.com.au/2011/06/08/mandurah-scammers-hit-the-roof/
and there is lots of info about successful clamps down stories on BBC.