Sex boxes in Switzerland

markomuscle

i think i need to get myself to Switzerland

Dravokivich

pundy wrote: »

that was a gay bar i think. so if that's the reaction to something like a gay bar, imagine the uproar of a hoor-house?!

Wasn't there an issue with a gay Nightclub/Hotel in Carlow, are you not thinking of that?

anncoates

mango salsa wrote: »

Would it work here?

Nah.

The punters have money to Bern over there.

Potatoeman

Morag wrote: »

We have laws about forced sex work, unfortunately the stigma which surrounds sex work makes it hard for people to get help and services to exercise their rights and press charges.

Which means the size of the problem is not known one way or the other. I dont think its inconcievable that some people do it by choice for the money.

Cody Pomeray

seamus wrote: »

we're not capable yet of having a mature conversation about sex.

Oh spare us the self hatred!

This is a pet peeve of mine. As soon as anything progressive/ rational is highlighted in a foreign country (preferably Germanic/ Nordic) the same old response comes up. Ah sure we're too thick/ incapable/ Catholic for that.

1. This decision is not without political and local opposition in Switzerland.
2. Simply having different values or opinions on prostitution does not make an entire people 'immature'.

It's the easiest thing in the world to look at what someone else is doing and copy it. Personally, and ON REFLECTION, I wouldn't be in favour of these facilities. That is not a position that is informed by religion or immaturity.

Of course Irish people are capable of having a mature conversation about sex ffs. I say this as an out gay man from a very traditional place.

Roger_007

Morag wrote: »

We have laws about forced sex work, unfortunately the stigma which surrounds sex work makes it hard for people to get help and services to exercise their rights and press charges.

But it is the easiest 'crime' in the world to detect and prosecute. All you have to do is get a policeman/woman to pose as a punter/provider and bingo. All sex workers have to advertise their services whether on the street or in brothels or on the internet. It would be like a bank robber letting the world when and where their next 'job' is going to be.
Also it must be the only 'crime' that I know of where the 'victim' is the one who benefits financially.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Dravokivich wrote: »

Wasn't there an issue with a gay Nightclub/Hotel in Carlow, are you not thinking of that?

iirc

the rumour spread around was that it was going to be a gay bar, but it was actually a gaa bar. was all marketing. and like every other bar in that particular location, it closed down unbelievably quickly.

actually im not even sure if that one ever opened.

Elbaston

Lando Griffin wrote: »

And what about the people who don't have cars, what are they meant to do? Hire a taxi?:mad:

Im picturing some fat fvcker zipping in on a go-kart.

Pitstop - how quick can she be.

There could even be one with the stop/go pole at the front.

Elbaston

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

iirc

the rumour spread around was that it was going to be a gay bar, but it was actually a gaa bar. was all marketing. and like every other bar in that particular location, it closed down unbelievably quickly.

actually im not even sure if that one ever opened.

at the gaa bar!! gaa bar!! gaa bar!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewrHj_RRk0Y

Witchie

Some people will do anything to get their swiss roll.......

Wibbs

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Oh spare us the self hatred!

This is a pet peeve of mine. As soon as anything progressive/ rational is highlighted in a foreign country (preferably Germanic/ Nordic) the same old response comes up. Ah sure we're too thick/ incapable/ Catholic for that.

+1000. while I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of Seamus' post the opening salvo grinds my gears.

Cool_CM

seamus wrote: »

Rather than waste resources fighting prostitution, we should be making it safe for those who engage in it.

Doubt you see any Irish city councils printing up a handbook for sex workers any time soon.

seamus

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

1. This decision is not without political and local opposition in Switzerland.
2. Simply having different values or opinions on prostitution does not make an entire people 'immature'.

It's the easiest thing in the world to look at what someone else is doing and copy it. Personally, and ON REFLECTION, I wouldn't be in favour of these facilities. That is not a position that is informed by religion or immaturity.

I wasn't referring to discussion about prostitution, I was referring to discussion about sex.
Before you can even begin to discuss prostitution in a rational manner, you need to be able to discuss sex in a rational manner. While the individual Irish people are perfectly capable of talking about it maturely, when it comes onto the national stage, the church and all of these other anti-sex groups get wheeled out to give their opinion, even though 90% of the country doesn't listen to them.
This is what I mean by "immature". National debates involving sex or reproduction ultimately become a debate between fundamentalists and nutjobs in the media, while the moderate majority sit and sigh.

Ireland, as a nation, still treats sex as a dirty word. Any proposals which are anything but "down with prostitution" will be flattened by politicians before it even gets to the public forum.

clairefontaine

One foot in front of the other folks.

Maybe work on public toilets first.

Baby steps....

Cody Pomeray

seamus wrote: »

While the individual Irish people are perfectly capable of talking about it maturely, when it comes onto the national stage, the church and all of these other anti-sex groups get wheeled out to give their opinion, even though 90% of the country doesn't listen to them.

I disagree. One morning recently I was in work... 9.30am... long conversation on national radio station about maintaining excitement in your sex life as a married person. Nobody bats an eye lid in the office.

National conversations about sex are all over the media

Foreign media has created a plethora of Irish (usually female) writers who write about sex on the national media.

Here's The Independent with a feature about putting a spark in your marriage by cheating
http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/so-is-wild-sex-what-women-really-want-239302.html

And here's an Irish website where married people can find sex outside marriage
http://www.maritalaffair.ie/

Thousands recently marched in Dublin for marriage equality, another recent march sought fair treatment for gay people in Russia. I didn't see any noticeable 'traditional values' backlash in either case.

There is plenty of mature, sexual discussion in the national media and between grown adults in this country. Your suggestion that Irish people are incapable of having a conversation about sex, or that Irish society is immature, is itself incapable of forming a mature response to the discussion.

limklad

Morag wrote: »

Brothels are illegal here, running a brothel is a crime
Any building which more then one sex worker works in is considered a brothel.

Prostitution is Legal.
Soliciting is illegal, but being paid for sex and paying for sex is not currently illegal.
There is a push to make paying for sex illegal but that only makes things worse for sex workers.

What about those rich men with women for sex and those women are with him for his money that he gives them in turn illegal too.

There is stories last year going around about college girls selling themselves to richer gentlemen to get through their college. approx 4000 in Ireland.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/education/irish-students-in-demand-from-sugar-daddies-willing-to-pay-fees-170906.html
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/4000-irish-students-seek-sugar-daddies-29255491.html

While it not illegal yet, it could be with new legislation as she is selling herself with sex in exchange for money and these are young women in third level colleges looking for degrees and higher..

Irish independent wrote:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/4000-irish-students-seek-sugar-daddies-29255491.html
"It's a lifeline for many students. It could mean the difference between them finishing college or being forced to drop out."
Overall, membership from Ireland is the seventh-largest in the world, behind the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, France and Germany.

http://www.her.ie/story/more-than-4-000-irish-female-college-students-are-signed-up-to-online-sugar-daddy-dating-service-933100
Intentions could be innocent enough but a survey last year found that about 80 per cent of all relationships made through the online service involve sex.

UCD topped the list with a total of 399 members, followed by Trinity College Dublin with 395 girls who have signed up to the site. The report also shows that a further 749 new students joined the website last year.

The Daily Mail reported on the arrival of "Sugar Daddy Parties" to the UK in 2011. The newspaper reported the parties as being where "daddies" discuss fees for future dates with women who take their fancy.

The matchmakers were said to justify the event by claiming all participants were consenting adults, but critics said the parties were bordering on prostitution.

awec

Park and ride.

Sunglasses Ron

dharma200 wrote: »

It makes perfect sense, the woman are not 'kidnapped' but find themselves in situations where they are all but so..... The woman in these brothers do not work independently and are frequently controlled by those who they work for. The women may be illegal immigrants, women so have debts, many women are trafficked from brazil, Eastern Europe.

As in kicking up a percentage to brothel owners who provide a secure venue to work from?

These women are not battered and tied up but they may as well be. The might be very enthusiastic whilst at work, but hardly as enthusiastic when they hand their money over.

Nobody likes paying their taxes. The only difference here being that instead of paying VAT, public insurance, rent, heat and light, and all the other costs that hemorrhage money out of any legitimate business, they kick up a few quid for someone else to sort the rent and have a heavy drive them to meet clients or be in the next room if things get violent. Boo hoo those poor women have to pay money to nasty gangsters- name me one business that doesn't have to pay extortionate overheads to insurance firms, the tax man and government regulators. Everyone wants a business where every note that comes into the till belongs to them, but that is not realistic.

Now of course the realistic argument could be made that gangsters could be taken out of the equation and all of the above taxes and costs could be paid by on the books mandatory STI tested hookers.

There have been cases where passports are confiscated, women have ran to embassies for their life... Women are frequently moved around from county to county, some hardly knowing where they are. I assure you this is not written from a feminist if perspective, I am all for proper legislation to provide safe working conditions and proper health screening for prostitutes.. However if you visit some apartment in cork, Dublin, Galway, wherever... N think that all these women are only just delighted to be there, you are very very much mistaken.

Is there even a shred of proof for this? Like, one court case, a few convictions off google?

I had a look at Google. Found one forced case in N Ireland and one in the UK.

And this

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country.

The failure has been disclosed by a Guardian investigation which also suggests that the scale of and nature of sex trafficking into the UK has been exaggerated by politicians and media.

Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all.

Just like forced drug mules make for terrible smugglers, forced hookers make for a crap ride. Which is bad for business. Which is why they all but do not exist.

Sunglasses Ron

I saw this story and recalled this thread

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2411812/Men-cheer-dancing-half-naked-women-Amsterdams-red-light-district-shocked-anti-trafficking-ad.html


Again, is there any actual evidence that prostitution slavery is even remotely existent in Western Europe?

corktina

careful now, they'll be taxing sex next... (I'll be getting a refund then I reckon....)

munchkin_utd

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

I saw this story and recalled this thread

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2411812/Men-cheer-dancing-half-naked-women-Amsterdams-red-light-district-shocked-anti-trafficking-ad.html


Again, is there any actual evidence that prostitution slavery is even remotely existent in Western Europe?

yup, some of the african women working in the trade are essentially slaves (EDIT: they have imaginary "debts" which have to be worked off). Worse still its family members who organise their passage and profit from their plight.
There was a prominent documentary on german tv recently about it.

It'd be similar I suppose to some of the chinese who end up in restaurants working. One great case a couple of months back of a chef in a chinese restaurant in holland who was kept in a cage and only was allowed out to work!
Now, if that was a woman being forced to be a prostitute it'd be front page news.
But it was only a man, in a cage, who cooked, so an unimportant (and not sufficiently morally outrageous) story relegated to a few lines in the other stories column.

Sunglasses Ron

munchkin_utd wrote: »

yup, some of the african women working in the trade are essentially slaves (EDIT: they have imaginary "debts" which have to be worked off). Worse still its family members who organise their passage and profit from their plight.
There was a prominent documentary on german tv recently about it.

But is it true? The previous Guardian article I linked earlier suggests it is not. An article that a few feminists had no response to.

It'd be similar I suppose to some of the chinese who end up in restaurants working. One great case a couple of months back of a chef in a chinese restaurant in holland who was kept in a cage and only was allowed out to work!
Now, if that was a woman being forced to be a prostitute it'd be front page news.
But it was only a man, in a cage, who cooked, so an unimportant (and not sufficiently morally outrageous) story relegated to a few lines in the other stories column.

Dare I say it, it is easier to threaten a man who completely relies on you for shelter and food to perform a job hidden in a kitchen far from the eyes of the customer than it is to force a terrified woman to pretend to have enjoyable sex with multiple men day in day out.

Basically, a large scale investigation revealed that sex slavery in Western Europe is almost certainly completely an urban legend, and there is zero evidence to suggest otherwise.

Sex box Sex Box, you're my sex box, you can give it me when I need to drain my...

munchkin_utd

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

<snip>
Basically, a large scale investigation revealed that sex slavery in Western Europe is almost certainly completely an urban legend, and there is zero evidence to suggest otherwise.

actually, thats what I was implying by mentioning the story of the girls from Africa. Its a tiny fraction of the whole thing. Its sad for the individuals involved but they are a small tiny percentage of an industry which is predominantly white and east european not black and african.
Its the exception to the rule.
And to be honest, the prostitution isnt the core of their problems, its the slavery itsself. If the girls weren't being forced to do that, they would be forced to work in a sweat shop or on a farm or whatever.

Heres a shortened report on the matter on ARD (german equivalent of RTE/ BBC ) titled "forced prostitution with voodoo magic", where girls in Africa are forced to travel to europe
http://www.ardmediathek.de/das-erste/weltspiegel/nigeria-zwangsprostitution-mit-voodoo-zauber?documentId=13759316
and heres an article on it which might be google-translatable.
http://www.daserste.de/information/reportage-dokumentation/dokus/sendung/wdr/ware-frau-130325-108.html

Capt'n Midnight

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

I can't recall where I read it, but despite the harping on of certain feminist groups, there has either never, or barely ever, been a case of even suspected forced prostitution in Ireland and the UK. Sex trafficking may exist in terms of the deliberate smuggling of illegals across borders, but the vast majority are willing, and get paid quite handsomely for it. Much like kidnapping and forcing women to become drug mules, forcing women to be hookers against their will when there is a surplus of women who are willing to do it for voluntary employment makes no sense. This may shock and appall these feminists, but believe it or not most blokes would not enjoy shagging a bird who seems withdrawn, has some bruises and seems terrified of her very surroundings. Most blokes would have no hesitation in reporting a woman being kept prisoner if she whispered it to him or passed him a note.

http://www.dailyedge.ie/prostitutes-trafficking-immigrant-council-ireland-790813-Feb2013/ A QUARTER OF sex buyers in Ireland have come in contact with women and girls who they believe were trafficked, controlled or underage.

http://www.childrensrights.ie/resources/response-hse-statement-no-missing-child-hse-care-has-been-trafficked

http://www.barnardos.ie/what-we-do/campaign-and-lobby/separated-children.html Of the 513 children who have gone missing from State care between 2000 and 2010, 440 are still unaccounted for.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-who-sought-underage-sex-jailed-26103233.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0314/298663-carrolltj/

Treora

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.dailyedge.ie/prostitutes-trafficking-immigrant-council-ireland-790813-Feb2013/ A QUARTER OF sex buyers in Ireland have come in contact with women and girls who they believe were trafficked, controlled or underage.

http://www.childrensrights.ie/resources/response-hse-statement-no-missing-child-hse-care-has-been-trafficked

http://www.barnardos.ie/what-we-do/campaign-and-lobby/separated-children.html Of the 513 children who have gone missing from State care between 2000 and 2010, 440 are still unaccounted for.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-who-sought-underage-sex-jailed-26103233.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0314/298663-carrolltj/

The first link is the Sisters of Mercy/ICI creating their own report for a political purpose. The commented votes of 250:60 for a legalised industry is telling.

And the second link is by Jillian van Turnhout, which is in the same as ICI, 'I don't agree with what they are saying so they are wrong'. It has the national fear reaction of a blond Roma child.

The independent article does not show that there are underaged people as sex workers, just that we have the some of the worst selection processes and self inspection of police in the western world. It also shows that when Ireland criminalised sex worker's clients that the police will have even more opportunity to rape sex workers.

The barnadoes case just points to the Independent's case. It show the effectiveness of those we pick to be cops.

The RTE report references ruhama (sisters of charity) so that puts paid to that (a sex worker slavery organisation saying that they want to save sex workers). It does not disclose the reality that it is christian pastors (often supported by the immigrant council of Ireland) and their partners that use multiple religious indoctrinations on vulnerable minds to coerce them. The same religious ideology that was used in the Magdalene Laundries.

It does show that 'self directed co-operative sex work' is needed for sex workers to protect themselves by using state inspected & licenced private security. Private security that are vetted and audited by a wide group of police in order to stop the one off cop, from the independent article, raping women.

I would have thought that since demand will increase and go underground (the profit from the RTE case and the warped drive from the Independent case should open eyes to this) if criminalised (as with Norway and Sweden - there are so many articles on thelocal.se or .no) the intelligent thing to do would be to licence and destigmatise sex workers. Then give clients bounties for identifying and being a DPP witness in cases of corercion or third party direction/profiteering. Stephen Roger's book 'On the game' lauds the drunken client that phones up his union representative to find out how to help a distressed enslaved women whom he was told as a sex worker.

This is a polarised mind situation where emotion outstrips rational measures that are far more effective at protecting vulnerable people while protecting the liberty of those Irish sex workers in Australia and disabled Australian's using touchingbase.org.