Heating system losing pressure?

Big Nelly

Hey Guys

Changed from oil system a few years back and put in gas with closed system. IN last 12 months have had to top up the system every 4-5 days as it was losing pressure. Didn't bother doing much about it but annoying me now.

Someone said to me it is probably a small weep or leak and to try a "leak Sealer". The pipes are old copper in the house from day one and I have wooden floor boards all downstairs. Can't see any leaks in ceiling so guess it is under floor boards

Went to plumbing shop today and got "Fernox Leak Sealer F4", cost about 35 quid. Anyway was wondering what is the best way to put into system? close off a rad and pour into rad and then add back into the system? any other idea's?

I just seen on the Fernox website they have express F4 which looks easier to use and they recommend just closing off a rad so was thinking about doing the same???? thanks:D

shane0007

I would only put in a leak sealer as a last resort. It can cause a few issues.
I would be looking at the usual suspects first.
If 12 months old, get it serviced so then expansion vessel pressure, safety valve, AAV's should be checked as standard.
Glands on rad valves other culprits also.

Froststop

Big Nelly wrote: »

Hey Guys

Changed from oil system a few years back and put in gas with closed system. IN last 12 months have had to top up the system every 4-5 days as it was losing pressure. Didn't bother doing much about it but annoying me now.

Someone said to me it is probably a small weep or leak and to try a "leak Sealer". The pipes are old copper in the house from day one and I have wooden floor boards all downstairs. Can't see any leaks in ceiling so guess it is under floor boards

Went to plumbing shop today and got "Fernox Leak Sealer F4", cost about 35 quid. Anyway was wondering what is the best way to put into system? close off a rad and pour into rad and then add back into the system? any other idea's?

I just seen on the Fernox website they have express F4 which looks easier to use and they recommend just closing off a rad so was thinking about doing the same???? thanks:D

The leak sealer may also be only a temporary solution. You would be better off to find the leak and repair it as it could be causing more damage to sub floors etc.
If you can answer the questions below it will help rule out any smaller issues you may be missing before considering the worst case scenario.
You can PM me the answers if you wish.

What temperature do you run the boiler at?
What pressure do you top up to?
Is there a pressure vessel fitted and what pressure is it charged to?
How much pressure is it loosing?
Do you vent after topping up & then top up again to get correct pressure? If not what procedure do you follow?
Do you top up when heating is off?
Some boilers have a small vent on top to vent the boilers, it looks like a small brass hose connection. Check to see if it's on yours.
After topping up, if the boiler is turned on does the pressure rise or drop?
Have you got zone valves?
Is there any sign of water from safety valves or overflows piped to outside outside which may be overlooked? (Check attic over flows also).

I have my reasons for bombarding you with questions and it will help rule out some problems I have come across before.

Big Nelly

What temperature do you run the boiler at? 60-70
What pressure do you top up to? It is down to zero, bring it up to around 2 on the little gauge
Is there a pressure vessel fitted and what pressure is it charged to? Not sure what this is
How much pressure is it loosing? goes back from the 2 down to zero. This takes around 3-5 days
Do you vent after topping up & then top up again to get correct pressure? If not what procedure do you follow? If not working I will just top up with water to get to correct pressure to get running again, then just fire it up
Do you top up when heating is off? Yes
Some boilers have a small vent on top to vent the boilers, it looks like a small brass hose connection. Check to see if it's on yours. Yes there is something on top of boiler which is brass, I guess this is it
After topping up, if the boiler is turned on does the pressure rise or drop?
Have you got zone valves? No
Is there any sign of water from safety valves or overflows piped to outside outside which may be overlooked? (Check attic over flows also)...Not that I can see

shane0007

As I said, get it serviced & checked at the same time....

Big Nelly

shane0007 wrote: »

As I said, get it serviced & checked at the same time....

Anyone know is Airtricity service is any good?

Big Nelly

https://www.airtricity.com/ie/home/airtricity-energy-services/gas-boiler-service

shane0007

Big Nelly wrote: »

Anyone know is Airtricity service is any good?

WOT. They will not look at the heating system & they will only gas test from boiler isolation valve & not from your meter.
Best to get a decent RGI in. Not a 20 minuter either.

Big Nelly

shane0007 wrote: »

WOT. They will not look at the heating system & they will only gas test from boiler isolation valve & not from your meter.
Best to get a decent RGI in. Not a 20 minuter either.

Always better to ask....found the following as well:

http://www.gasservicesdirect.ie/GasBoilerServiceRepair.htm

Any good or any recommendations for the D15 area? new baby in house so need heating up and running!!!

Dtp79

Big Nelly wrote: »

Always better to ask....found the following as well:

http://www.gasservicesdirect.ie/GasBoilerServiceRepair.htm

Any good or any recommendations for the D15 area? new baby in house so need heating up and running!!!

If there's a free carbon monoxide alarm worth 30 euro then the service is worth 44 euro. Ring them and ask how long will the service take. Anything less than an Hour and its not being done right

shane0007

Big Nelly wrote: »

Always better to ask....found the following as well:

http://www.gasservicesdirect.ie/GasBoilerServiceRepair.htm

Any good or any recommendations for the D15 area? new baby in house so need heating up and running!!!

No idea about them.

Give DGOBS or JohnnieK a PM, both good guys.
If they can't, I'm working in D15 for 10 days from Monday, so I could pop over if you're stuck. You won't go wrong with the either of the above 2 lads though, both excellent.

shane0007

Now that I think of it, DGOBS is doing a job in Blanchardstown tomorrow. I can PM you his number if you wish.

Big Nelly

Dtp79 wrote: »

If there's a free carbon monoxide alarm worth 30 euro then the service is worth 44 euro. Ring them and ask how long will the service take. Anything less than an Hour and its not being done right

Reply from him:

boiler is striped down cleaned serviced and commisioned as per annex C 1S 813 .
takes approx 45 mins.

Big Nelly

shane0007 wrote: »

Now that I think of it, DGOBS is doing a job in Blanchardstown tomorrow. I can PM you his number if you wish.

Please send on.....

Dtp79

Big Nelly wrote: »

Reply from him:

boiler is striped down cleaned serviced and commisioned as per annex C 1S 813 .
takes approx 45 mins.

Seems a little fast for my liking. As Shane said I'd go for dgobs too

shane0007

PM sent.
Annexe C is boiler service & boiler safety check only.
Annexe E is whole system check & is a must for any service, hence the €44 price! I'm sure if you have a gas hob, cooker, gas fire or other gas appliance, you'd like to know there is no gas leaks on those either.

Big Nelly

shane0007 wrote: »

PM sent.
Annexe C is boiler service & boiler safety check only.
Annexe E is whole system check & is a must for any service, hence the €44 price! I'm sure if you have a gas hob, cooker, gas fire or other gas appliance, you'd like to know there is no gas leaks on those either.

Just the heating, no other gas in house.......thanks

shane0007

You still need an Annexe E on the whole of the system

Big Nelly

shane0007 wrote: »

You still need an Annexe E on the whole of the system

Yeah rang Tony, doing a small test to see if leak is on boiler and then he will do full service...thanks

Big Nelly

Ok just a bit of update....talked to Tony, so filled up system and then closed off water to boiler. Left for around 24 hours. After the 24 hours the clock was still at the same point. When I opened the taps it dropped down. See picture before and after below.

From the above the leak is in the system and not the boiler......at this stage what options apart from putting in the leak sealant?




https://www.dropbox.com/s/vawyhv86gztehym/2013-08-29%2017.23.32.jpg


https://www.dropbox.com/s/8cj0bbgtld5f6cc/2013-08-30%2018.35.29.jpg

Froststop

Big Nelly wrote: »

Ok just a bit of update....talked to Tony, so filled up system and then closed off water to boiler. Left for around 24 hours. After the 24 hours the clock was still at the same point. When I opened the taps it dropped down. See picture before and after below.

From the above the leak is in the system and not the boiler......at this stage what options apart from putting in the leak sealant?




https://www.dropbox.com/s/vawyhv86gztehym/2013-08-29%2017.23.32.jpg


https://www.dropbox.com/s/8cj0bbgtld5f6cc/2013-08-30%2018.35.29.jpg

That's a small leak over 24hrs. Have you checked all the rad valve glands under the covers. When opening or closing any rad valves do any of them seem free compared to others. Both F&R valves on every rad need to be checked. Also check any gate valves on the heating system.

Sometime if a rad valve gland is leaking, the water can run down the back of the pipe into the floor without being seen.

Automatic air vents would need checking also if you have any.

Would be worth checking.

Big Nelly

Hey guys

Sorry to bring this old thread up, had been mad last few weeks so never got anything done on this

Came home yesterday and the Misses had got some guy in(he was doing job up the road), he installed a pressure release value, from what I can gather it just auto fills back up the system, it is worthwhile?

Egass13

Big Nelly wrote: »

Hey guys

Sorry to bring this old thread up, had been mad last few weeks so never got anything done on this

Came home yesterday and the Misses had got some guy in(he was doing job up the road), he installed a pressure release value, from what I can gather it just auto fills back up the system, it is worthwhile?

Your just masking the problem , and making matters worse potentially. Constantly topping up system with fresh water will result in a sludged up system and if your in a hardwater area , a scaled up system . Don't leave it on the long finger or it'll end up a lot worse

Froststop

Big Nelly wrote: »

Hey guys

Sorry to bring this old thread up, had been mad last few weeks so never got anything done on this

Came home yesterday and the Misses had got some guy in(he was doing job up the road), he installed a pressure release value, from what I can gather it just auto fills back up the system, it is worthwhile?

If he fitted an auto-fill valve, it will keep the pressure in the system. But as you will have fresh water entering the system your not solving the problem as Egass 13 has suggested in the previous post. You will also cause rads to rust from the inside. I think you have no choice only to get in someone to trace the leak with leak tracing equipment or an infra red camera.

Big Nelly

Froststop wrote: »

If he fitted an auto-fill valve, it will keep the pressure in the system. But as you will have fresh water entering the system your not solving the problem as Egass 13 has suggested in the previous post. You will also cause rads to rust from the inside. I think you have no choice only to get in someone to trace the leak with leak tracing equipment or an infra red camera.

Any idea how much this would cost?

Big Nelly

Hi Guys

Still looking at this,......the auto valve is doing the job and I dont have to fill up the system but just wondering how I can actually fix the problem? I have looked around and cannot find the leak.....I have wooden floors everywhere and can't lift them.....is there an easy way?

I would guess not!

scudo2

No offence, but 5 months on and you haven't got the leak fixed !!!!

You just fitted a valve that would keep automatically adding water to your system and keep destroying it by rusting.
Did you ever get it checked out by an experienced plumber ?

10 miniute later:
EDIT: SORRY I NEVER SPOTTED YOUR POST ON THE ATTEMPTS TO GET IT .FIXED

Froststop

Big Nelly wrote: »

Hi Guys

Still looking at this,......the auto valve is doing the job and I dont have to fill up the system but just wondering how I can actually fix the problem? I have looked around and cannot find the leak.....I have wooden floors everywhere and can't lift them.....is there an easy way?

I would guess not!

I would advise you get a leak trace guy in to find where the leak is, then worry about how to fix it once you know where it's located.

Big Nelly

Froststop wrote: »

I would advise you get a leak trace guy in to find where the leak is, then worry about how to fix it once you know where it's located.

Any ideas who is a leak trace guy>

Froststop

Big Nelly wrote: »

Any ideas who is a leak trace guy>

I don't know where your based, I know a guy who covers most of Munster or if you google it you might find a guy closer to where you live.

jca

My system was losing pressure over a longer period approx 10-12 weeks, it would drop from 1 bar cold to zero. It turned out the expansion vessel was ruptured and full of the water I was letting into the system.. Everything was fine up until last week when I noticed the gauge was very close to zero again. On reading Shane's advice I went around all radiator taps with a 12mm spanner and the glands took a surprising amount of turns to tighten on the shaft. I topped up to 1 bar and it hasn't stirred since. My system has an auto filling valve but I don't leave the water turned on to it,they hide a lot of sins.

Froststop

jca wrote: »

My system was losing pressure over a longer period approx 10-12 weeks, it would drop from 1 bar cold to zero. It turned out the expansion vessel was ruptured and full of the water I was letting into the system.. Everything was fine up until last week when I noticed the gauge was very close to zero again. On reading Shane's advice I went around all radiator taps with a 12mm spanner and the glands took a surprising amount of turns to tighten on the shaft. I topped up to 1 bar and it hasn't stirred since. My system has an auto filling valve but I don't leave the water turned on to it,they hide a lot of sins.

The glands on the rad valves should not be "tightened", only give them a pinch if leaking/weeping. If you tighten them and they leak again the gland will not be able to seal any more and the valves will need to be changed.

jca

Froststop wrote: »

The glands on the rad valves should not be "tightened", only give them a pinch if leaking/weeping. If you tighten them and they leak again the gland will not be able to seal any more and the valves will need to be changed.

Ah now, you know what I mean.. I tightened them up enough so there was a slight drag on the spindle while turning.. I didn't do a King Kong job on them or anything:rolleyes:

Froststop

jca wrote: »

Ah now, you know what I mean.. I tightened them up enough so there was a slight drag on the spindle while turning.. I didn't do a King Kong job on them or anything:rolleyes:

Ha Ha, King Kong job! good one.