M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

Leonard Hofstadter

Interesting that on the Today FM programme with Matt Cooper on Wednesday, the Deputy Transport Minister (Patrick O'Donovan) referred to this scheme as the 'Limerick to Foynes motorway'. Hopefully the Minister wasn't talking nonsense, given what's been said in this thread....

http://www.todayfm.com/player/listen_back/7/33545/16th_November_2016_-_The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper_Part_1

marno21

Economic disaster for Croagh if M21 link isn't built

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/235724/limerick-villagefaces-disaster-if-spur-road-is-not-built.html

.. and this about how the road upgrade (it's time to move on from upgrading the N69..) defines the future of the port

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/235733/success-of-foynes-port-depends-onnew-road.html

Irish_rat

marno21 wrote: »

Economic disaster for Croagh if M21 link isn't built

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/235724/limerick-villagefaces-disaster-if-spur-road-is-not-built.html

.. and this about how the road upgrade (it's time to move on from upgrading the N69..) defines the future of the port

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/235733/success-of-foynes-port-depends-onnew-road.html

Croagh is too small to require a junction. Its about 15 mins from the current M20

lottpaul

Any and every small village without a junction nearby is affected - Croagh and the 2 roadside petrol stations on the section between Adare and Newcastlewest will suffer as they are bypassed - especially the Applegreen one near Newcastle. Take a look at any section of the M7, M6, M11 etc -- the bigger towns do well -- they are freed from passing HGVs and general traffic and are close to junctions. The villages are not as close and their business drops and shops might close but they generally struggle on -- and the isolated, one off petrol stations suffer most of all. The outlook for them is often bleak.

marno21

Irish_rat wrote: »

Croagh is too small to require a junction. Its about 15 mins from the current M20

Normally I wouldn't support a junction for such a small place but in typical Irish style the area around Croagh and along the N21 and side roads there is littered with one off houses with a good deal of them driving to Limerick.

Were there to be no Croagh junction, said cars would have to go through Adare to access the M20/21. IMO it would be beneficial for an Adare South/Croagh junction with connectivity also to the R519. Just for the benefit of removing as much traffic as possible from Adare.

annfield1978

Is this scheme behind programme?

marno21

Design update due in April/May. Straight from the horses mouth.

marno21

Design options being considered in the townland of Blossomhill, Rathkeale:

https://media.wix.com/ugd/1cba1b_dc96b71b962b4b9cb041e5debaff913c.pdf

Looks like very little of the existing Rathkeale BP will be used.

Limerick74

Design Update now available on project website http://www.foyneslimerick.ie

marno21

Good to see. Couple of points.

1. The junction with the spur to Foynes from the main N21 will be a dumbell junction, meaning that the Foynes spur will surely be single carriageway.

2. The mainline from the existing M20 to Rathkeale has all full grade seperated junctions, meaning that the road will likely be Type 1 Dual Carraigeway or motorway standard.

3. The request for a Croagh junction has been facilitated. That's likely why we had a delay in the latest update for the scheme.

4. I wonder why they are building a spur off the new road to the existing N21 near Adare Manor? Why not just widen the L road that'll cross the new scheme to the Lantern Lodge that connects to the existing roundabout?

5. I wonder what'll happen with the existing 1990 Rathkeale bypass north of where the scheme is going ahead? The diagram doesn't seem to indicate a connection between where the new N21 merges with the existing Rathkeale bypass north of the new merge so it'll be interesting to see what happens it. The Foynes junction and existing R518 GSJ on the N21`will be quite close as well. There'll hardly be three roads between Croagh and Rathkeale West after this (new mainline, existing 1990 Rathkeale bypass, old N21 through Rathkeale).

Irish_rat

Unbelievable that Croagh got a junction. Look how close the Rathkeale and Adare junctions are

Cookiemunster

marno21 wrote: »

1. The junction with the spur to Foynes from the main N21 will be a dumbell junction, meaning that the Foynes spur will surely be single carriageway.

Not necessarily. J9 and J12 on the M18 are dumbbell junctions onto (admittedly short) dual carriageways.

marno21

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Not necessarily. J9 and J12 on the M18 are dumbbell junctions onto (admittedly short) dual carriageways.

J9 in fairness is a grade seperated roundabout, which was always a favourite for connecting dual carraigeways to dual carraigeways in Ireland (M50, Cork South Ring, Waterford bypass M9 junction)

I looked at the drawing again and there are two red lines over the slips on the existing Rathkeale/R518 junction. Not sure exactly what they are doing for the junction for the Rathkeale area going forward looking at that.

Middle Man

marno21 wrote: »

Good to see. Couple of points.

1. The junction with the spur to Foynes from the main N21 will be a dumbell junction, meaning that the Foynes spur will surely be single carriageway.

But that section was going to be a single carriageway from very early on - I think they're going for Type 1 SC (segregated).

marno21 wrote: »

2. The mainline from the existing M20 to Rathkeale has all full grade seperated junctions, meaning that the road will likely be Type 1 Dual Carraigeway or motorway standard.

Looking at the interchange strategy for the N21 section, I'd say it will be Type 1 DC and designated as a motorway.

marno21 wrote: »

3. The request for a Croagh junction has been facilitated. That's likely why we had a delay in the latest update for the scheme.

One for everybody in the audience I guess!

marno21 wrote: »

4. I wonder why they are building a spur off the new road to the existing N21 near Adare Manor? Why not just widen the L road that'll cross the new scheme to the Lantern Lodge that connects to the existing roundabout?

Sounds logical, but using the existing L road appears closer to properties.

marno21 wrote: »

5. I wonder what'll happen with the existing 1990 Rathkeale bypass north of where the scheme is going ahead? The diagram doesn't seem to indicate a connection between where the new N21 merges with the existing Rathkeale bypass north of the new merge so it'll be interesting to see what happens it. The Foynes junction and existing R518 GSJ on the N21`will be quite close as well. There'll hardly be three roads between Croagh and Rathkeale West after this (new mainline, existing 1990 Rathkeale bypass, old N21 through Rathkeale).

I've taken a very close look at the detailed map and this is what I reckon will happen:
1. Existing ramps from R518 will be stopped up.
2. New dumbbell interchange for N69 Link will be constructed to the North East (just North of existing Rathkeale Bypass).
3. Existing Rathkeale Bypass (Eastern section) will be diverted into Southern roundabout of proposed interchange.
4. Link will be provided from same roundabout westwards to R518 (South of existing bypass).
5. New N21 mainline will tie into South Western section of existing Rathkeale Bypass (using existing bridge over R518).

Middle Man

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Not necessarily. J9 and J12 on the M18 are dumbbell junctions onto (admittedly short) dual carriageways.

AFAIK, the Foynes Spur will be constructed as a segregated Type 1 Single Carriageway.

BelfastVanMan

Middle Man wrote: »

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Not necessarily. J9 and J12 on the M18 are dumbbell junctions onto (admittedly short) dual carriageways.

AFAIK, the Foynes Spur will be constructed as a segregated Type 1 Single Carriageway.

What is that, exactly? WS2?

marno21

Middle Man wrote: »

But that section was going to be a single carriageway from very early on - I think they're going for Type 1 SC (segregated).

I would've always assumed SC as well - but there was always a question of how the single carriageway would conform to the TEN-T route standard requirements - clearly that must have been sorted.

Middle Man wrote: »

Looking at the interchange strategy for the N21 section, I'd say it will be Type 1 DC and designated as a motorway.

Seems that way. The only standard the junctions conform to is Type 1 DC. There is a clear alternative route along the entire length of the scheme too.

Sounds logical, but using the existing L road appears closer to properties.

The location of the planned roundabout near Adare Manor looks like a difficult enough place to be building it too. The L road obviously won't be feasible and in fairness this seems to be the only way they can do it.

Middle Man wrote: »

I've taken a very close look at the detailed map and this is what I reckon will happen:
1. Existing ramps from R518 will be stopped up.
2. New dumbbell interchange for N69 Link will be constructed to the North East (just North of existing Rathkeale Bypass).
3. Existing Rathkeale Bypass (Eastern section) will be diverted into Southern roundabout of proposed interchange.
4. Link will be provided from same roundabout westwards to R518 (South of existing bypass).
5. New N21 mainline will tie into South Western section of existing Rathkeale Bypass (using existing bridge over R518).

I see this now after looking it at in more detail. Makes sense.

I'm surprised the existing Rathkeale bypass is being left as is for most of its length. It doesn't really serve any purpose. There's an alternative route via the R523 through Rathkeale.

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

What is that, exactly? WS2?

Type 1 SC = 2.5m hard shoulder | 3.65m lane | 3.65m lane | 2.5m hard shoulder

Narrower than WS2 which had 3m shoulders and 5m lanes. Segregated means just that roads intersecting the scheme will be bridged with no access to the mainline.

Middle Man

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

What is that, exactly? WS2?

Type 1 SC:

2 x 3.65m Traffic Lanes
2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders

Overall Pavement - 12.3m

marno21

Another thing, this will connect directly to the existing N21 west of Rathkeale with no roundabout. Good to see rather than the terminal roundabout becoming a chokepoint, although there will likely be queueing where the 2 lanes become 1 at peak times.

BelfastVanMan

marno21 wrote: »

Middle Man wrote: »

But that section was going to be a single carriageway from very early on - I think they're going for Type 1 SC (segregated).

I would've always assumed SC as well - but there was always a question of how the single carriageway would conform to the TEN-T route standard requirements - clearly that must have been sorted.

Middle Man wrote: »

Looking at the interchange strategy for the N21 section, I'd say it will be Type 1 DC and designated as a motorway.

Seems that way. The only standard the junctions conform to is Type 1 DC. There is a clear alternative route along the entire length of the scheme too.

Sounds logical, but using the existing L road appears closer to properties.

The location of the planned roundabout near Adare Manor looks like a difficult enough place to be building it too. The L road obviously won't be feasible and in fairness this seems to be the only way they can do it.

Middle Man wrote: »

I've taken a very close look at the detailed map and this is what I reckon will happen:
1. Existing ramps from R518 will be stopped up.
2. New dumbbell interchange for N69 Link will be constructed to the North East (just North of existing Rathkeale Bypass).
3. Existing Rathkeale Bypass (Eastern section) will be diverted into Southern roundabout of proposed interchange.
4. Link will be provided from same roundabout westwards to R518 (South of existing bypass).
5. New N21 mainline will tie into South Western section of existing Rathkeale Bypass (using existing bridge over R518).

I see this now after looking it at in more detail. Makes sense.

I'm surprised the existing Rathkeale bypass is being left as is for most of its length. It doesn't really serve any purpose. There's an alternative route via the R523 through Rathkeale.

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

What is that, exactly? WS2?

Type 1 SC = 2.5m hard shoulder | 3.65m lane | 3.65m lane | 2.5m hard shoulder

Narrower than WS2 which had 3m shoulders and 5m lanes. Segregated means just that roads intersecting the scheme will be bridged with no access to the mainline.

Thanks for that. Wasn't sure. :-)

Chris_5339762

Middle Man wrote: »

Type 1 SC:

2 x 3.65m Traffic Lanes
2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders

Overall Pavement - 12.3m

Basically what the spur from Kilkenny to the M9 is. Thats pretty much the only recently built example we have, I think.

Hilarious (and we all know why) that you'll still have to turn off this lovely pristine new motorway to Foynes to get to Cork, and have to trundle down the section between Mallow and Croom, but thats a fight for the M20 thread.

marno21

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Basically what the spur from Kilkenny to the M9 is. Thats pretty much the only recently built example we have, I think.

Hilarious (and we all know why) that you'll still have to turn off this lovely pristine new motorway to Foynes to get to Cork, and have to trundle down the section between Mallow and Croom, but thats a fight for the M20 thread.

We've a few more alright, the Ballaghaderreen bypass on the N5, even the realigned N21 just west of Newcastlewest is Type 1 SC. The only difference between these is that the Foynes link won't have any junctions with minor roads, these will be bridged instead.

Irish_rat

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Hilarious (and we all know why) that you'll still have to turn off this lovely pristine new motorway to Foynes to get to Cork, and have to trundle down the section between Mallow and Croom, but thats a fight for the M20 thread.

Still it'll be nice to know the N21 is motorway standard as far as Rathkeale. Adare village can add between 10-30mins on a journey. Glad it'll be bypassed.

mydiscworld

What's the start date on this? Has the EU funding come through?

Cookiemunster

mydiscworld wrote: »

What's the start date on this? Has the EU funding come through?

3-4 years. Plenty of stages still to go. Final route selection, EIS, planning, CPOs, tender for construction.

marno21

Cookiemunster wrote: »

3-4 years. Plenty of stages still to go. Final route selection, EIS, planning, CPOs, tender for construction.

I believe it's to be send for planning permission at the end of the year. Should be 2021 start

Cookiemunster

marno21 wrote: »

I believe it's to be send for planning permission at the end of the year. Should be 2021 start

Exactly. 3-4 years

dashoonage

So anything more on this or the proposed opening of the rail line again ?

marno21

dashoonage wrote: »

So anything more on this or the proposed opening of the rail line again ?

The next update we'll likely get is the publication of the final proposed route and the publication of the EIS, which is expected to be published and sent to ABP in Q4 2017.

Cookiemunster

Small update. They've decided to go with the Eastern option for the Croagh junction. https://www.limerick.ie/council/newsroom/public-notices/foynes-limerick-road-improvement-scheme-croagh-junction-update