If an Irish man won the Mr. Olympia contest........

DoctorEdgeWild

Gintonious wrote: »

I would again, disagree. What you have described relates more to a performance art, which is what I would see BB being closer to than a sport.

I really am failing to see how posing is a sport, like I said above, its more akin to a performance art like ballet.

But it is judged? Unlike a performance art which is not.

Frank Bullitt

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

But it is judged? Unlike a performance art which is not.

Performance arts are indeed judged and criticised, just not for a grand prize such as Mr.O, thats where BBing is unique.

thegreatiam

by your definition of a sport then xfactor is also a sport.

You are being a bit liberal with the definition in the first place.

Sangre

COH wrote: »

Enda won his class at the worlds a few years back, Tommy did the same and went on to win his class at the universe too in same year and the sum total of the media exposure was a short article in the Star where they got pretty much all the details confused. we hosted the NABBA worlds last year too, minimal coverage from any corner of the media and the lad that won the over all has since gone on to earn a pro card.

No market for bodybuilding in Ireland really. Irish supplement companies don't really even sponsor Irish bodybuilders!

Tommy hasn't even made the Raw "Wall of Fame" yet!

Those in glasses houses...

Mellor

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

A Googled definition of a sport: An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others.

With such a ridiculously blunt definition of a sport a load of other activities creep in.

Dancing
Singing
Soggy Biscuits

Physical exertion, yup.
Competition, ditto.
Individual or team, obviously.

DoctorEdgeWild

Mellor wrote: »

With such a ridiculously blunt definition of a sport a load of other activities creep in.

Dancing
Singing
Soggy Biscuits

Physical exertion, yup.
Competition, ditto.
Individual or team, obviously.

As I said, it's a Googled definition. Would you care to offer an alternative? Or is there a generally accepted definition we could use?

Alf Veedersane

Does it matter if it's a sport based on the description of a sport that no one seems to agree on anyway?

thegreatiam

what were the reasons it was turned down for Olympic selection?
the wikipedia page only says that it was because many do not consider it a sport. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodybuilding#Olympic_sport_discussion

I agree with Alf here, if people are getting bent out of shape because body building is not a sport. What difference does it make? Cooking is also not a sport, but chefs don't get po'd when you tell them that.

It's not a matter of rank, or prestige to call it a sport or not. It is merely a definition of what it is.

Mellor

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

As I said, it's a Googled definition. Would you care to offer an alternative? Or is there a generally accepted definition we could use?

You were asserting that it absolutely was a sport because it fit the google definition. But unless seeing, dancing and soggy biscuits are sports too, that theory is out the window.

Right now I don't have an iron clad definition. But that's irrelevant to my point. I wasn't trying prove that it isn't a sport, just that your argument was wrong.

DoctorEdgeWild

Mellor wrote: »

You were asserting that it absolutely was a sport because it fit the google definition. But unless seeing, dancing and soggy biscuits are sports too, that theory is out the window.

Right now I don't have an iron clad definition. But that's irrelevant to my point. I wasn't trying prove that it isn't a sport, just that your argument was wrong.

I don't reallu understand. I have mo interest in X Factor, Soggy biscuit or anything else. I just wanted to explain to people that a bodybuilding contest is a sporting contest and that bodybuilding is a sport. I offered a definition of what a sport is and then explained how bodybuilding fits that definition. I thought I had been pretty clear?

Alf Veedersane

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I just wanted to explain to people that a bodybuilding contest is a sporting contest and that bodybuilding is a sport.

I just don't get why it matters that it be called a sport.

I also don't get why someone would feel the need to try to prove it isn't a sport either, for the record.

It is what it is.

DoctorEdgeWild

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I just don't get why it matters that it be called a sport.

I also don't get why someone would feel the need to try to prove it isn't a sport either, for the record.

It is what it is.

That's totally fair enough. I was only resounding to people earlier in the thread who said it wasn't a sport. I felt they didn't understand what a bodybuilding show was and hoped to explain.

But if I've dragged things off topic, apologies to the mods and OP and to answer their question - I think they would be a minor celebrity for a few weeks and probably guest pose on the Late Late to the disgust and laughter of the audience.

Tom_Cruise

I asked the owner of my local gym this before, a bodybuilder himself. He said he thought it was more of an art more than a sport - just his opinion obviously but i thought being described as an art made it even more majestic.

Alf Veedersane

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I think they would be a minor celebrity for a few weeks and probably guest pose on the Late Late to the disgust and laughter of the audience.

That's probably what would happen. They had the Fennelly chap (Ireland's strongest man) on lifting cars between guests on the Late Late around the time they showed 'The Gym'.

Mellor

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

I don't reallu understand. I have mo interest in X Factor, Soggy biscuit or anything else. I just wanted to explain to people that a bodybuilding contest is a sporting contest and that bodybuilding is a sport. I offered a definition of what a sport is and then explained how bodybuilding fits that definition. I thought I had been pretty clear?

I know what you did.
I offered singing, dancing and soggy biscuits to also fit that definition to explain that it doesn't prove that it's a sport.
I also thought that was pretty clear.

DoctorEdgeWild

Mellor wrote: »

I know what you did.
I offered singing, dancing and soggy biscuits to also fit that definition to explain that it doesn't prove that it's a sport.
I also thought that was pretty clear.

Would you care to offer another definition then? Seems to me that the onus is on you surely? I've offered mine and explained why and how it fits.

The IOC recognised it as a sport in 2000 (possibly earlier, sorry I don't have a link but will find one if you need).

Mentions of anything else like singing etc. really isn't anything to do with me.

I said Bodybuilding is a sport. I explained why. I'm happy to hear opinions/facts/whatever relating to that.

DoctorEdgeWild

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

That's probably what would happen. They had the Fennelly chap (Ireland's strongest man) on lifting cars between guests on the Late Late around the time they showed 'The Gym'.

I think it'll always be the way with minority/niche sports. There would probably be a rise in interest among younger people if the guy/girl was particularly charismatic or whatever. I don't think we'd see people lining up get on stage though. The vast majority of people who have any interest in bodybuilding fall away from it long before they get to a competitive level but if it leads them to an interest in health and fitness then at least it would do some good there.

moc8827

RidleyRider wrote: »

Usain bolt wouldn't be quicker on a bike from a standing start.. You mad?

Yeah, I didn't really think that analogy out too well. But I think my point is still valid. I'm sure there's better analogies!

shootermacg

Bodybuilding isn't a sport and never was. The body builder thinks of himself as a sculptor, so surely it's a form of art, although it's in the eye of the beholder / judges.
Ronnie Coleman was so much bigger than the rest, that the judges didn't have to split hairs over the decisions, Yeah Buddy!.

When two contestants are equal, it probably comes down to a bit of politicking / personality. Phil Heath is a great spokesman for the sport and he also has some crazy genetics.

How Arnie won so many mister Olympias with those legs I'll never know, not that it was a bad thing, he did his bit for the sport.

How Paul Dillet didn't win an Olympia I'll never know. The argument was he couldn't pose, but to be fair he didn't have to pose he dwarfed every man on stage.

moc8827

I think people see BodyBuilding as a sport because competitors need to do alot of weightlifting (which is a sport) in order to compete.

However, just because it requires training in weightlifting does NOT mean that bodybuilding itself is a sport.

DoctorEdgeWild

shootermacg wrote: »

Bodybuilding isn't a sport and never was...

Phil Heath is a great spokesman for the sport and he also has some crazy genetics.

...he did his bit for the sport.

How Paul Dillet didn't win an Olympia I'll never know.

I'm confused as to whether you think it is or isn't?

Perhaps the reason he didn't win was because it's not about being the biggest. It's about having AND presenting (this is the sport bit) the best overall package on the night.

DoctorEdgeWild

moc8827 wrote: »

I think people see BodyBuilding as a sport because competitors need to do alot of weightlifting (which is a sport) in order to compete.

However, just because it requires training in weightlifting does NOT mean that bodybuilding itself is a sport.

There is no weightlifting involved in a bodybuilding competition. There is a **** load of it required in training for one.

thegreatiam

lifting weights and weight lifting would be two different activities tho.

Weightlifting would usually refer to the Olympic sport, and to a less common extent powerlifting.

whereas lifting weights is working out with weights, they may contain the same moves, but they arent the same. (although in the public eye there is probably very little separating them)

The intention of bodybuilding is the aesthetic appeal of the end result, and conforming to whatever that is perceived as.
In an of it self it is not a sport but an artistic endevour.

The goal of other "artistic" sports such as figure skating is not to make a beautiful maneuver. but to execute it perfectly, regardless of individual aesthetics, the beauty of the more graceful sports (floor gymnastics, skating etc) comes from the athletes grace and is secondary to performing the sequence perfectly. In other words, you can have an ugly ass figure skater, but the bodybuilder needs to look good.

Plus the fact that bodybuilders have no requirement to actually be physically capable of doing anything.
They just need to give of the image of perfection. All of the training, the preparation etc goes into giving the image of strength and body perfection.

DoctorEdgeWild

thegreatiam wrote: »

lifting weights and weight lifting would be two different activities tho.

Weightlifting would usually refer to the Olympic sport, and to a less common extent powerlifting.

whereas lifting weights is working out with weights, they may contain the same moves, but they arent the same. (although in the public eye there is probably very little separating them)

The intention of bodybuilding is the aesthetic appeal of the end result, and conforming to whatever that is perceived as.
In an of it self it is not a sport but an artistic endevour.

The goal of other "artistic" sports such as figure skating is not to make a beautiful maneuver. but to execute it perfectly, regardless of individual aesthetics, the beauty of the more graceful sports (floor gymnastics, skating etc) comes from the athletes grace and is secondary to performing the sequence perfectly. In other words, you can have an ugly ass figure skater, but the bodybuilder needs to look good.

Plus the fact that bodybuilders have no requirement to actually be physically capable of doing anything.
They just need to give of the image of perfection. All of the training, the preparation etc goes into giving the image of strength and body perfection.

You are not correct here. A bodybuilder does not need to just look the best on the stage. If that were the case then I would 100% agree that it's not a sport. He/she must physically hold and perform poses, directly competing with others to match/beat/draw away from them. THAT is the sport.

thegreatiam

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

You are not correct here. A bodybuilder does not need to just look the best on the stage. If that were the case then I would 100% agree that it's not a sport. He/she must physically hold and perform poses, directly competing with others to match/beat/draw away from them. THAT is the sport.

Competitive posing is pageantry not sport.

The very fact that people claim it's not a sport makes it not a sport.

Like I said, in the same way cooking is not a sport, even competitive cooking. Same as football is not an art form (despite what people say about some players)

Trying to claim other wise is pointless.

No one is saying that they are not athletes, but the end goal is not to be strong but to look strong.

rubadub

Are there any other activities people do not consider sports -where some competitors might consider them to be sports?

People are giving fairly unfair comparisons/examples, like I doubt any chef considers that activity a sport.

Maybe synchronised swimming or something.

thegreatiam

chefs kind of make my point tho, cooking is not a sport. Its a hobby to some, a profession to other and done in its highest form its an art.
There is also a competitive aspect to it. But no one ever refers to it as a sport. Despite the fact it fits the definition outlined here.

Poker/darts/chess/golf have all been defined as sports by some even tho they are not considered sports by the majority.

Phill taylor is an incredible champion with 15(16?+) world titles competing against the worlds best. But it's a game, not a sport.

maximoose

rubadub wrote: »

Are there any other activities people do not consider sports -where some competitors might consider them to be sports?

Darts?

Alf Veedersane

Dressage.

Archery.

Theresalwaysone

Archery is more of a sport than speedwalking or bodybuilding imo.

moc8827

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

There is no weightlifting involved in a bodybuilding competition. There is a **** load of it required in training for one.

Yes exactly, that's my point.

All medical doctors require studying science as part of their training. However, that does not make them scientists. When they go to work every day, they're still doing doctor tasks. Even if reading science articles helps them with their work, they're still doctors not scientists.

Similarly, lifting weights or weightlifting (or whatever a bodybuilder chooses to do in the gym), does not change the nature of what they do when they get up on stage. Weightlifting is just preparation for that. Admittedly, it's a HUGE part of the preparation.

To use another analogy - many male models will have to work out in the gym to prepare for work (depending on what type of thing they're modelling for). Of course they won't have to train as much as bodybuilders, but they will still have to put in alot of training.
That does not make male modelling a sport.

Will Heffernan

I was having this discussion with regard to sports at the Olympics that should be removed in the context of wrestling being dumped...I made the point that I think anything I played on holidays has no right to be an Olympic sport.

LuckyLloyd

Performance Art rather than sport imo.

Alf Veedersane

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Archery is more of a sport than speedwalking or bodybuilding imo.

0.1 is greater than 0 but it's also less than 1. Or something.

Burkatron

Poker/darts/chess/golf have all been defined as sports by some even tho they are not considered sports by the majority.

Darts & golf have a quantifiable physical skill aspect & measurable way to win!

Poker & chess aren't physical! Bodybuilding DOESN'T have a quantifiable way of winning & IMHO posing isn't a skill in the comparison to something like a gymnastic routine! Gymnastics is a grey area, I'd consider it a sport (it's in the olympics)but other people will jump on this and say it's not, although it's alot easier to judge who did a better high bar dismount & landing then which dude had a better lat spread & way more impressive!!

DoctorEdgeWild

thegreatiam wrote: »

Competitive posing is pageantry not sport.

The very fact that people claim it's not a sport makes it not a sport.

If I claim football isn't a sport, does that make it so?

It seems myself and Olympics folk are the only ones who believe it to be a sport so convincing others seems a losing battle. Could anyone offer me a better definition of a sport than my Googled one? Because bodybuilding fits that one like a glove.

Mellor

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

Would you care to offer another definition then? Seems to me that the onus is on you surely? I've offered mine and explained why and how it fits.

As I said I'm not trying to offer a better definition. I'm not even sure that one exists. I'm just pointing out that your blanket definition is wrong. I understand what you are saying about poses and such being competitive, but for me it's not a significant enough part to class it as a sport.

rubadub wrote: »

Are there any other activities people do not consider sports -where some competitors might consider them to be sports?

Competitive eating
Breakdancing

Professional eaters have to do lots of training to be able to eat ridiculous amounts. I'm sure it requires dedication to get to the top, it's competitive obviously, but its not a sport.

DoctorEdgeWild

Mellor wrote: »

As I said I'm not trying to offer a better definition. I'm not even sure that one exists. I'm just pointing out that your blanket definition is wrong. I understand what you are saying about poses and such being competitive, but for me it's not a significant enough part to class it as a sport.

Fair enough, there's not much point in arguing opinions without any kind of facts to work off so I'm off to do some competitive eating.

Frank Bullitt

Well for the winner of a BB contest, they are judged on aesthetics, not ability, the prejudging at a show involves no routine, thats merely for the show for the crowd.

So when you take into consideration that BBers are judged on how they look more than how they move, it gets rid of the ability aspect which a sport has.

thegreatiam

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

If I claim football isn't a sport, does that make it so?

It seems myself and Olympics folk are the only ones who believe it to be a sport so convincing others seems a losing battle. Could anyone offer me a better definition of a sport than my Googled one? Because bodybuilding fits that one like a glove.

You are not many people.

Of course your definition fits like a glove, because its vague as it comes.
The definition of pageant also fits:

A beauty pageant or beauty contest, is a competition that mainly focuses on the physical beauty of its contestants, although such contests also incorporate personality, intelligence, talent, and answers to judges' questions as judged criteria. The phrase almost invariably refers only to contests for women and girls; similar events for men or boys are called by other names and are more likely to be bodybuilding contests.

So only using your logic then bodybuilding is not a sport it's a pageant.
and because contestants on the xfactor exert themselves and are judged against each other they are sportsmen.

And the Olympic committee denied submitting bodybuilding because it's not a sport.

DoctorEdgeWild

thegreatiam wrote: »

You are not many people.

Of course your definition fits like a glove, because its vague as it comes.
The definition of pageant also fits:


So only using your logic then bodybuilding is not a sport it's a pageant.
and because contestants on the xfactor exert themselves and are judged against each other they are sportsmen.

And the Olympic committee denied submitting bodybuilding because it's not a sport.

Just because something fits one definition does not necessarily preclude it from fitting another - example - One can be a human AND a mother. However, not all humans are mothers nor all mothers human.

So, if bodybuilding fits the description of a pageant, it still doesn't stop it being a sport.

If you don't accept my definition of sport, you surely have to offer an alternative? Mine just came from Google, I'd be happy to try and prove how bodybuilding fits an alternative definition.

'At the 1998 Nagano Winter Olympics, bodybuilding received provisional status by the International Olympic Committee. The sport has two years to overcome prejudices and misconceptions and receive confirmation of acceptance as a demonstration sport in the 2000 Sydney Summer Olympics.'

Quote copied and pasted from Frederick C. Hatfield, International Sports Sciences Association, Santa Barbara CA, USA
Sportscience News Mar-Apr 1998.

DoctorEdgeWild

Gintonious wrote: »

Well for the winner of a BB contest, they are judged on aesthetics, not ability, the prejudging at a show involves no routine, thats merely for the show for the crowd.

So when you take into consideration that BBers are judged on how they look more than how they move, it gets rid of the ability aspect which a sport has.

That is not correct. A well performed posedown can elevate someone from second to first etc. It has happened many times that the best body on stage does not win because the bodybuilder does not present himself correctly and is outshone by another.

thegreatiam

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

If you don't accept my definition of sport, you surely have to offer an alternative? Mine just came from Google, I'd be happy to try and prove how bodybuilding fits an alternative definition

We do accept your definition of a sport. There is no need to provide an alternative. The problem is you are being too liberal with your definition.

I showed that bodybuilding comes under the definition of pageantry.
I also showed that simply fitting a definition is not enough to be classed as a sport since by the definition alone many things become sports.

The exertion of posing doesn't qualify it as a sport. Not when countless other non-sporting activities use posing as their judgement method.

You are arguing that it is a sport based simply on the fact that posing is hard and if you dont pose correctly you dont get points.

Well, models pose, beauty pageant contestants pose and crufts contenders pose. All 3 of those activities also fit the definition of a sport.

Just because you can find a loose justification to make bodybuilding fit into the definition of a sport does not mean you are right to do so. Im sorry, but bodybuilding fails to meet the first aspect of your definition as posing is not exertion.

ex•er•tion (ɪgˈzɜr ʃən)
n.
1. vigorous action or effort.
2. an effort: a great exertion to help others.
3. exercise, as of power or faculties.
4. an instance of this.

vig·or·ous
ˈvig(ə)rəs/
adjective
adjective: vigorous

1.
strong, healthy, and full of energy.

A bodybuilder makes no actions, and needs to be none of the things which define vigorous as his strength, health and energy are not judged. Only his appearance.

DoctorEdgeWild

thegreatiam wrote: »

We do accept your definition of a sport. There is no need to provide an alternative. The problem is you are being too liberal with your definition.

I showed that bodybuilding comes under the definition of pageantry.
I also showed that simply fitting a definition is not enough to be classed as a sport since by the definition alone many things become sports.

The exertion of posing doesn't qualify it as a sport. Not when countless other non-sporting activities use posing as their judgement method.

You are arguing that it is a sport based simply on the fact that posing is hard and if you dont pose correctly you dont get points.

Well, models pose, beauty pageant contestants pose and crufts contenders pose. All 3 of those activities also fit the definition of a sport.

Just because you can find a loose justification to make bodybuilding fit into the definition of a sport does not mean you are right to do so. Im sorry, but bodybuilding fails to meet the first aspect of your definition as posing is not exertion.



A bodybuilder makes no actions, and needs to be none of the things which define vigorous as his strength, health and energy are not judged. Only his appearance.

But if you accept the definition of sport and I prove that BB fits that definition, that means it's a sport, yes?

Do you not accept that posing, holding those poses through muscular control, counter posing based on what you opponents are doing (to highlight their weaknesses or hide your own) is an action?

Theresalwaysone

This is so mind numbingly stupid.

thegreatiam

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

But if you accept the definition of sport and I prove that BB fits that definition, that means it's a sport, yes?

Do you not accept that posing, holding those poses through muscular control, counter posing based on what you opponents are doing (to highlight their weaknesses or hide your own) is an action?

yes, now you're trying to squeeze bodybuilding into the definition.

You shouldn't need to have to explain how something fits a definition, it does or it doesn't. You shouldn't need to explain that posing is an exertion, it should be self evident.

As we have stated, if we try hard enough almost anything can fit that definition.

Alf Veedersane

I keep reading your username as thegreatjam.

That would nearly drive a man to eat a big tablespoon of jam.

thegreatiam

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I keep reading your username as thegreatjam.

That would nearly drive a man to eat a big tablespoon of jam.

it's not just good jam.
It's great jam

Alf Veedersane

thegreatiam wrote: »

it's not just good jam.
It's great jam

Now I have Eamo Dunphy's voice saying that, in my head.

Thanks!

Frank Bullitt

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

That is not correct. A well performed posedown can elevate someone from second to first etc. It has happened many times that the best body on stage does not win because the bodybuilder does not present himself correctly and is outshone by another.

So are you saying that posing is the main aim of BBing then? Rubbish.

Most of the work for a BB is done in the kitchen, and then in a gym doing the same type of training that you see in any gym anywhere.

The ability to pose is not the defining factor in BBing, its a part of it. The sole goal of BBing is aesthetics, plain and simple, and posing just shows their aesthetics more, thats the point. If a BBer put in all the effort to cut down to a low % of bodyfat and couldn't pose, went up against someone who is not in as good shape but could pose better, who would win?