Landlord refused planning but renting property anyway

zotapex

Hi
I've found myself in a very strange situation and would appreciate any advice. recently there was an incident in the apartment that i'm renting which cost me €1000's in damaged equipment, destroyed documents, personal items etc. my landlord denied any responsibility. i of course didn't have any personal insurance but citizens advice has told me because he was directly responsible for the incident, ie his diy went dramatically wrong. that i might have some chance in smalls claims or he might admit responsibility.
at the same time i tried to insure my belongings to avoid a recurrence and have found out that:
he was rejected planning permission for the property i am now renting along with a few other apartments in same building.
he is not registered with ptrb
the fire officers have looked at the building and are waiting on a decision from corporation on how to proceed because of the fact they might have to displace tenants.
he has converted the loft which is makes it a 3 story building with no escape from third floor except for a velux and a 30 foot drop.
there are no fire doors.
the loft conversation is too small to fulfill attic conversation to bedroom regulations although in lease he is renting it to me as a 3 bedroom apartment. ie putting a bed in a cupboard doesn't meet standards.
he does not reside in the building.
has any one any idea where i stand, what i should do or where i could find information.
thanks in advance

ABajaninCork

Speak to Threshold for advice on how to proceed. Did you ever get a letter from the PRTB saying the property was registered and you were living there? The database isn't the most up-to-date, so I'd call as well to check.

Is there anything in writing you can get hold of as evidence no planning permission for the loft was ever sought or refused? Same with the Fire Officers - Get them to confirm non-compliance with fire regs in writing.

Finally - if the property isn't registered with the PRTB, then it's likely the LL isn't paying tax on the rent received either. I'd report him.

pwurple

Yes, move the heck out as fast as you can. Persue the rest in small claims.

zotapex

thanks, i have been on to threshold about him not being registered with ptrb but the other information only came to light on friday afternoon so i'll be onto them first thing on monday morning. i'll also get onto the fire department and see if they'll give anything in writing. i will be out of the country for 2 weeks friday so it will be a month at least before i can start to look for somewhere else

Paulw

Small claims court will only cover you for a claim up to €2,000, and your post indicated that you only "might have some chance" to win. I wouldn't feel very confident about that. But, you would be better off consulting a solicitor.

You should have had your own contents insurance.

If there are issues with where you live, get proper advice from Threshold. You should serve notice and find alternate accomodation.

Not being registered with the PRTB still won't help you with the cost of replacing your items, and in no way limits your ability to lodge a complaint against the landlord.

D3PO

OP the issues you mention PRTB, attic conversion etc have no bearing on your goods being damaged.

If you didn't have contents insurance tough luck that's your own fault. The other issues regarding the accommodation may allow you terminate the tenancy but that's it.

Don't assume that these issues change anything to do with his responsibility for your contents because it doesn't.

Pro Hoc Vice

D3PO wrote: »

OP the issues you mention PRTB, attic conversion etc have no bearing on your goods being damaged.

If you didn't have contents insurance tough luck that's your own fault. The other issues regarding the accommodation may allow you terminate the tenancy but that's it.

Don't assume that these issues change anything to do with his responsibility for your contents because it doesn't.

You may have missed the important bit in the OP, "of course didn't have any personal insurance but citizens advice has told me because he was directly responsible for the incident, ie his diy went dramatically wrong"

If another persons negligence cause you damage they pay. If the landlord put a water tank in the attic and did so incorrectly and said tank crashed through the ceiling destroying you brand new iMac, your laptop and €5k TV, it matters not that you don't have or want to claim on insurance the land lord is liable more than likely both in contract and defo in tort.

D3PO

infosys wrote: »

You may have missed the important bit in the OP, "of course didn't have any personal insurance but citizens advice has told me because he was directly responsible for the incident, ie his diy went dramatically wrong"

If another persons negligence cause you damage they pay. If the landlord put a water tank in the attic and did so incorrectly and said tank crashed through the ceiling destroying you brand new iMac, your laptop and €5k TV, it matters not that you don't have or want to claim on insurance the land lord is liable more than likely both in contract and defo in tort.

No I read that part. we have no detail as to how the LL's DIY caused this incident.

The OP would need to provide more detail in that regard and also would have to be able to prove in court that that was the case and they may may have a case, its not as black and white as just saying the LL is libel.

Cuddlesworth

The only two things that matter to you are, he isn't registered with the PRTB and he may be financially responsible for your apartments contents.

You will only need the PRTB in regards rent as far as I believe.

You need to lawyer up on the second. If its over 3k in value here, then it will generally be worth it to go to court.

Pro Hoc Vice

D3PO wrote: »

No I read that part. we have no detail as to how the LL's DIY caused this incident.

The OP would need to provide more detail in that regard and also would have to be able to prove in court that that was the case and they may may have a case, its not as black and white as just saying the LL is libel.

The OP says it was the botched DIY of the landlord, yes of course he will have to prove that the damage was caused by the landlords negligence but only on the balance if probabilities.

Issues as to the landlords disregard of planing will be important as it shows the landlord is reckless. I am not saying the OP would win any claim, but I am saying if he can prove negligence he will win his claim. You on the other hand seemed to imply that as he had no insurance it was his tough. He has already sought advice and they based on what the OP said to them said they believed the landlord liable. The OP would be advised to take photos and arrange an solicitor to arrange qualified expert to inspect to locus.

zotapex

thanks for all the responses
the washing machine door broke and i told him about it, it was 10 years old. instead of replacing the whole machine he took the door off and put a second one on the washing machine which subsequently blew off flooding the apartment (living room). the water kept running because the catch was stuck in the door . the machine kept trying to fill. the word citizens advice used was he "tampered" with the machine.
the issue with the upstairs loft conversion is apart from probably not being fire safe is he has been charging me for a 3 bedroom (its written on the lease) when its not a bedroom its a loft conversion (looking very likely illegal) if they knocked back his submission for planning permission. the more i look the more dodgy its getting. i would think he's taking money for services not provided but i'm not really sure. i'm pissed off with him and hope its not cloudy my judgement before i act.
the analogy the citizens advice used was if he changed the door on the oven and it blew off burning everyone in the room would he have been reckless?

D3PO

you don't generally need planning permission to convert a loft (although may need it for velux windows). You do however have certain building regulations you must follow to call it a bedroom like firedoors on all floors etc.

unless it has that it can only be advertised as floored attic space and not as a bedroom however that still has no bearing on anything to do with your damaged property.

re it being the LL's responsibility you will have to take him to court and armed with expert proof he was at fault you should be able to get a judgement in your favour. I say should as you never know how the counter argument that you should not have the washing machine in use without being present will be received as flimsy an argument it is judgements can sometimes be funny.

Just playing devils advocate

_Kaiser_

And this is another example why we need proper reform of the private rental market with real powers for the regulator and painful consequences to cowboy landlords such as the one the OP is dealing with.

Instead however we have a forum increasingly filling again with BTL/"investor" types looking to "get back on the property ladder" so they can start gouging those who don't want/can't afford a place where they're now living.

We really have learned nothing from the last 6/7 years :rolleyes:

OP: Get yourself a good solicitor and sue. If it's as dodgy as it sounds the only way to deal with people like that is to try and extract as much money from them as you can. Might make him realise his "investment" wasn't such a bright idea after all!

Ray Palmer

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

OP: Get yourself a good solicitor and sue. If it's as dodgy as it sounds the only way to deal with people like that is to try and extract as much money from them as you can. Might make him realise his "investment" wasn't such a bright idea after all!

A classic example of somebody wanting revenge on any LL for what they feel is wrong with the market.

The DIY will have to be proved to be the fault. Maybe the new door was at fault.
Was the OP in the property when the washing machine was on? Could they have turned of the mains or the supply going to the washing machine?

I am still wondering how water coming out of a washing machine would cause damage to personal items unless they were on the floor.

As for the fire safety I would be very worried about that and be wanting to leave based on that. As people have pointed out you don't generally need planning permission for an attic conversion. It does need to adhere to fire regulations. A rope ladder can suffice as an exit and a fire door at the stairs is required. It may even be at both the top and bottom these days.

_Kaiser_

Ray Palmer wrote: »

A classic example of somebody wanting revenge on any LL for what they feel is wrong with the market.

The DIY will have to be proved to be the fault. Maybe the new door was at fault.
Was the OP in the property when the washing machine was on? Could they have turned of the mains or the supply going to the washing machine?

I am still wondering how water coming out of a washing machine would cause damage to personal items unless they were on the floor.

As for the fire safety I would be very worried about that and be wanting to leave based on that. As people have pointed out you don't generally need planning permission for an attic conversion. It does need to adhere to fire regulations. A rope ladder can suffice as an exit and a fire door at the stairs is required. It may even be at both the top and bottom these days.

"Revenge".. please - bit early for dramatics like that now. :rolleyes: I've rented for years and never had any issues.. but then I wouldn't (and haven't) put up with cowboy antics like that either!

My comment is based on the fact that we have (as the OP tells it) a LL who seems to be up to his neck in dodgy letting activities. Trying a DIY workaround on a 10 year old washing machine rather than just replacing it for €300 or so just shows to me that the guy is only in it to make as much money as he can (which is fair enough) but WITHOUT living up to his end of the deal/responsibilities - either to the OP or his other tenants OR the State.

zotapex

The washing machine was in the living/kitchen area of course things were on the floor where are PC power units usually are. When I finish using my laptop I put it on the floor sometimes, not all the time, along with a external hard drives and a guitar, being electrical items and plugged in of course water affected them. And books along the wall and hundreds of documents I had in folders under the couch. The replaced door was second hand and not up to standard. I mightn't be able to afford a lawyer and i should've had personal insurance agreed. Lesson learned. Revenge is a bit over the top, as a LL he knew that he should've replaced the whole machine and just dismissed the matter out of hand a years work (excuse the pun) down the drain.
As for moving out I guess I will have to if the corporation don't move soon, they will close him down or make him comply with the rules that are made for god reason. I would like to know why I should have to pay for a bedroom that I can't use because its unsafe to sleep. Again it costs a lot of money to move, obtain the services of a solicitor and replace items and a lot of work to redo the documents which I don't have.

Cuddlesworth

zotapex wrote: »

The washing machine was in the living/kitchen area of course things were on the floor where are PC power units usually are.

Broken washing machine leaking water? You would be pushed to show negligence on the part of the landlord to be honest. Its a fairly common fault.

You would also need to look at your policy of keeping everything on the floor.

zotapex

supposed to read good reason, it was no act of god

Paulw

Even if you had insurance or take a case to court, they may claim that your items were improperly stored - laptop on floor, external disks on floor, documents under couch, items left plugged in when not in use, etc.

You would also need an engineer's report that the replacement door was not up to standard, or not fitted correctly.

D3PO

Paulw wrote: »

Even if you had insurance or take a case to court, they may claim that your items were improperly stored - laptop on floor, external disks on floor, documents under couch, items left plugged in when not in use, etc.

You would also need an engineer's report that the replacement door was not up to standard, or not fitted correctly.

Totally agree Paul. Whilst if you take the OP's messages at face value the LL is at fault proving it and getting a judgement to that effect is a whole different kettle of fish.

I agree that the OP would be hard pressed to win a case against the landlord.

jimmycrackcorm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Broken washing machine leaking water? You would be pushed to show negligence on the part of the landlord to be honest. Its a fairly common fault.

You would also need to look at your policy of keeping everything on the floor.

If the op can clearly show that the landlord t replaced the washing machine door and that the flood happened as a result of it, then it's clearly the responsibility of the landlord. This wasn't an accidental flood but caused by negligence.

It doesn't matter that the op had his belongings on the floor. I'm not sure if the small claims court is the way to go but another option is a solicitor who would take the case on a no win no fee basis.

zotapex

thanks all
i was guessing that it would be difficult and probably costly to win any case, outlays would cost more than what i was claiming. i can only rely on the LL's goodwill. i know the answer to that as well.
i will follow up the converting building with planning permission refused and fire breaches and ptrb and housing tenants in an illegal building. i guess i will then move when cash is available, struggling at the moment.
i know this is a bit off topic but just out of interest why would it be "wrong to have personal items on the floor" the fridge is on the floor as with the cooker and freezer. surely you put things wherever you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. gravity kind of dictates that things go on the floor

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

My comment is based on the fact that we have (as the OP tells it) a LL who seems to be up to his neck in dodgy letting activities. Trying a DIY workaround on a 10 year old washing machine rather than just replacing it for €300 or so just shows to me that the guy is only in it to make as much money as he can (which is fair enough) but WITHOUT living up to his end of the deal/responsibilities - either to the OP or his other tenants OR the State.

Speaking for myself and as someone who is "handy" and has repaired a number of faulty washing machines, dishwashers etc. I wouldn't be so quick to throw out an otherwise working appliance if a specific fault can be identified and repaired economically.

I recently fixed my mother's dishwasher which is also getting on a bit:
The fault was a worn sealing ring that cost €5 to replace (bit of a rip off for what it was tbh). Are you suggesting I should have told the mother to dump the otherwise functioning machine because of a worn part?

I would rather repair a 10 year old Miele, Bosch or Siemens washing machine (if economical) than replace it with a €300 thing. The LL may or may not have made a balls of the repair. That's impossible to say without access to the machine. He probably did, but on principle there's nothing wrong with repairing things as opposed to reaching for the credit card and just replacing them.

zotapex

i would repair an appliance if i owned it and it was in my house. it was 10 years old and i'm guessing it can be claimed as an expense, depreciation has probably covered the cost of over 100 years of use. or the cost of a qualified plumber and the replacement of the item would be tax deductable, not so for a private individual.

cluelez

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If the op can clearly show that the landlord t replaced the washing machine door and that the flood happened as a result of it, then it's clearly the responsibility of the landlord. This wasn't an accidental flood but caused by negligence.

It doesn't matter that the op had his belongings on the floor. I'm not sure if the small claims court is the way to go but another option is a solicitor who would take the case on a no win no fee basis.

not necessarily, if landlord provided property furnished with wardrobe, desk, table or chest drawer then tenant is responsible for negligence by storing own things on the floor e.g. personal choice and not the necessity.

zotapex

I've got some interesting information and opinions out of all this, i especially like the comment about the window and the rope ladder being fire compliant. i certainly hope it doesn't come to that. it would suit a lots of the pirate LL's. anyway i've been in contact with authorities and he is in a bit of trouble. i agree entirely with Kaiser2000 i've always paid my rent and expect the LL to be compliant and live up to his end of the agreement. when i went looking for insurance i didn't expect to have been living in a building for three that wasn't "legal" and up to spec as regards to fire regulations. i live alone and have the extra bedrooms for my kids and they sleep in them and i find i have been putting them at risk not a good feeling at all.

zotapex

for three years i mean

Ray Palmer

zotapex wrote: »

I've got some interesting information and opinions out of all this, i especially like the comment about the window and the rope ladder being fire compliant. i certainly hope it doesn't come to that. it would suit a lots of the pirate LL's. anyway i've been in contact with authorities and he is in a bit of trouble. i agree entirely with Kaiser2000 i've always paid my rent and expect the LL to be compliant and live up to his end of the agreement. when i went looking for insurance i didn't expect to have been living in a building for three that wasn't "legal" and up to spec as regards to fire regulations. i live alone and have the extra bedrooms for my kids and they sleep in them and i find i have been putting them at risk not a good feeling at all.

Rope ladder is acceptable. Otherwise every converted attic would need an external stairs

I think you may be surprised at how little trouble he is actually in. It may require him to provide a rope ladder and stick in a fire door. Although make sure that the wall going to the stairs is also fire resistant and not standard partion.


It is a disgrace that allow this but that's how things go. He would be crucified if somebody died as a result though.

Cuddlesworth

zotapex wrote: »

i know this is a bit off topic but just out of interest why would it be "wrong to have personal items on the floor" the fridge is on the floor as with the cooker and freezer. surely you put things wherever you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. gravity kind of dictates that things go on the floor

Your cooker and Freezer would both be at least 1 inch off the floor with any electrics usually about a foot up.

I rent and have done for years. My TV sits on a TV stand with a powerstrip attached to the stand. My PC sits on my desk. My documents on bookshelves or in wardrobes(which are always about 2-4 inches off the ground). My tablet is sitting on my sitting room table, my girlfriends laptop is on the bed. In reality, there is little to nothing in my apartment on the floor.

Like I said, you need to re-adjust your policy of keeping everything on the floor. Guitar stands exist for a reason and you are the first person I have ever heard of that stores their valuable documents under their couch.