Westworld (HBO/Sky Atlantic) [** Spoilers **]

ManOfMystery

Tony EH wrote: »

This is a thing I've been mulling over. How far into the future is 'Westworld' set?

Looking at the tech, it seems distant enough, 100 years? But Hopkins character talks about his robot family being a reboot of his own life and they distinctly look non-futuristic.

It's very difficult to place.

I could be wrong but pretty sure I remember the showrunners saying it was set in this century. That could mean 2099 of course.

strawdog

strawdog wrote: »

I might have missed it being mentioned but wondering is there any reason or obvious clue why the man in black couldn't be Logan, not William? He got left behind from the train in the William/Delores timeline but would know that they went somewhere that obviously had consequences, and the behaviour of MIB/Logan seems to match better. Logan was supposed to already be a powerful man when he entered, MIB as Logan could be out to revenge something that happened to William as well as being there for his own purposes(despite the squabbling they seemed close)

Thats what Ive been assuming all along.

jcsoulinger

strawdog wrote: »

I might have missed it being mentioned but wondering is there any reason or obvious clue why the man in black couldn't be Logan, not William? He got left behind from the train in the William/Delores timeline but would know that they went somewhere that obviously had consequences, and the behaviour of MIB/Logan seems to match better. Logan was supposed to already be a powerful man when he entered, MIB as Logan could be out to revenge something that happened to William as well as being there for his own purposes(despite the squabbling they seemed close)

I made the same point earlier in the thread, Logan is a much better fit for MiB imo, one of the main issues is their eyes don't match.

ManOfMystery

strawdog wrote: »

I might have missed it being mentioned but wondering is there any reason or obvious clue why the man in black couldn't be Logan, not William? He got left behind from the train in the William/Delores timeline but would know that they went somewhere that obviously had consequences, and the behaviour of MIB/Logan seems to match better. Logan was supposed to already be a powerful man when he entered, MIB as Logan could be out to revenge something that happened to William as well as being there for his own purposes(despite the squabbling they seemed close)

Could be, though he doesn't seem to care for William much at all.

ManOfMystery

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Could be, though he doesn't seem to care for William much at all.

Simon Gruber wrote:

There's a difference, you know, between not liking one's brother and not caring when some dumb Irish flatfoot drops him out of a window.

:pac:

Nermal

Effects wrote: »

Couldn't he keep a close eye on her if he just had her in the basement with Bill?

Indeed. And given how willing he is to kill, he seems rather tolerant of the MIB who has been working against him for 30 years.

jcsoulinger

intheclouds wrote: »

There must be some kind of AI in the outside world. These technological leaps don't exist in isolation. Haven't we already seen the satellite uplink implying industrial espionage.

It's the nature of westworlds data that's so interesting to the shareholders. Bernard said it. Thousands upon thousands of repititions of closed loops of behaviour causing small variations......ie, evolution. It's the evolution of consciousness. That's what the shareholders are interested in. The park facilitates the evolution due to the repeating nature of the hosts software.

I was under the impression that the sat uplink was a ploy by the board to extract data from westworld?

I think that there is AI in the outside world it just wouldn't be at the level that exists in the park.

If it was widely available, say there were 1000s of them doing jobs that humans don't want to do, then it would not take long for the 1000s and 1000s of repetitions required to facilitate the evolution of consciousness that the shareholders are interested in.

You would also question how safe the hosts would be in the real world.

irishash

Effects wrote: »

Couldn't he keep a close eye on her if he just had her in the basement with Bill?

Perhaps she had to be active, kept within the park for some reason. It is obvious that ford does not know exactly what is going on with Arnold and Delores, hence the last chat they had. If she was retired, then it is drill up the nose and processor scrambled. Then she is no good for anything.

intheclouds

jcsoulinger wrote: »

I was under the impression that the sat uplink was a ploy by the board to extract data from westworld?

I think that there is AI in the outside world it just wouldn't be at the level that exists in the park.

If it was widely available, say there were 1000s of them doing jobs that humans don't want to do, then it would not take long for the 1000s and 1000s of repetitions required to facilitate the evolution of consciousness that the shareholders are interested in.

You would also question how safe the hosts would be in the real world.

Yes, but the point about the park is that the data is all there in one central location. Lots of data, from lots of hosts, over lots of years.

Individual robots out in the world won't be having their data saved anywhere the way it's happening in the park.

The key thing is the narratives. They follow specific narrative loops. Out in the world they may do the hoovering 1000s of times, but it's not a whole character loop, nor is the data being saved anywhere. I can't imagine them having personalities out in the world, more like bots.

irishash

jcsoulinger wrote: »

I made the same point earlier in the thread, Logan is a much better fit for MiB imo, one of the main issues is their eyes don't match.

Yep, blue eyes for MIB and William, brown for Logan. Also, and maybe this is just me, but Logan for all his menace, does not seem that smart. He is the proverbial silver spoon boy in the family business. MIB has some smarts and William seems the better fit in that regard.

Phoebas

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As the other poster said a daily ticket is 40k. Some people come and stay for a week. How do you know they arent doing more valuable work?

Im sure if you showed a PS4 to Alan Turing his attitude would be the same.

I'd assume if the hosts were out and about doing valuable work in the real world, you wouldn't get too many people willing to pay 40k a day to ride them or fight them.

jcsoulinger

intheclouds wrote: »

Yes, but the point about the park is that the data is all there in one central location. Lots of data, from lots of hosts, over lots of years.

Individual robots out in the world won't be having their data saved anywhere the way it's happening in the park.

The key thing is the narratives. They follow specific narrative loops. Out in the world they may do the hoovering 1000s of times, but it's not a whole character loop, nor is the data being saved anywhere. I can't imagine them having personalities out in the world, more like bots.

Why wouldn't they have their data saved? To me they would definitely be saving their data incase something goes wrong.

There is fair greater real world applications than just doing menial tasks like hoovering.

intheclouds

jcsoulinger wrote: »

Why wouldn't they have their data saved? To me they would definitely be saving their data incase something goes wrong.

There is fair greater real world applications than just doing menial tasks like hoovering.

I'm talking about the data of endless iterations of the same behaviour narrative leading to the rise of consciousness. I don't think bots in the outside world would have personalities and narratives that would give rise to such.

Of course, but I can't see the bot that performs the rocket science calculations being programmed to have much of a personality can you? Bots in people's homes might have rudimentary personalities. But nothing like the sophistication of the Westworld bots. Why? Because it's not needed. And, the most obvious reason of all, people wouldn't pay to go to Westworld if they had access to bots like that at home.

So the data just wouldn't be comparable.

GottaGetGatt

I also noticed that Bernard always wears blueish or purple framed glasses and pretty much the same clothes but in the scenes with Delores in the room he wears black framed glasses and is mostly dressed in black.Further evidence that he my be Arnold.

jcsoulinger

intheclouds wrote: »

I'm talking about the data of endless iterations of the same behaviour narrative leading to the rise of consciousness. I don't think bots in the outside world would have personalities and narratives that would give rise to such.

Of course, but I can't see the bot that performs the rocket science calculations being programmed to have much of a personality can you? Bots in people's homes might have rudimentary personalities. But nothing like the sophistication of the Westworld bots. Why? Because it's not needed. And, the most obvious reason of all, people wouldn't pay to go to Westworld if they had access to bots like that at home.

So the data just wouldn't be comparable.

So you think that it's possible for humans of the future to create hosts exactly the same as the ones in westworld outside in the real world but the reason they don't do it is because they are not needed? Yet they pay crazy cash to go to westworld.

intheclouds

jcsoulinger wrote: »

So you think that it's possible for humans of the future to create hosts exactly the same as the ones in westworld outside in the real world but the reason they don't do it is because they are not needed? Yet they pay crazy cash to go to westworld.

No. I never said they'd be exactly the same. In fact, everything I have said argues the opposite.

What I said was that AI of some sort existed outside because it's unlikely technology exists in isolation.

I've also repeatedly pointed out the endless iterations of narrative loops are only possible in a place like Westworld.

I'm not sure what part of that gives you difficulty.

strawdog

jcsoulinger wrote: »

I made the same point earlier in the thread, Logan is a much better fit for MiB imo, one of the main issues is their eyes don't match.

Ah right, thanks, yeah I assumed there was something as it didn't seem to be coming up as a possibility. Still doesn't feel like its William to me for some reason. Then again, I imagine, given the amount of speculation and theorising already going on, that the writers will try and misdirect us so who knows

cumulonimbus

Logan seems to be too minor a character to be the MIB. I think his only purpose was to bring William to the park and act as a contrast to show how "good" William is.

It will be very interesting to see what life outside Westworld is like. What sort of society would result from no diseases and possibly most of the work being done by robots?
Actually I think that might be more interesting than a few robots getting vengeance on a few humans.

Yoghurt87

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

I also noticed that Bernard always wears blueish or purple framed glasses and pretty much the same clothes but in the scenes with Delores in the room he wears black framed glasses and is mostly dressed in black.Further evidence that he my be Arnold.

That's interesting regarding the glasses. The part that's not adding up for me is that the staff would surely recognise Bernard was a host if he looks the exact same as Arnold? That's also why I can't see Ford giving Bernard the same backstory as Arnold - it would make him too recognisable.

Edit - After reading a thread on reddit, it seems that Ford has referred to Arnold's contribution to Westworld being 'scrubbed from the record' by Delos, which I suppose could account for him not being recognised (still, it's somewhat of a stretch to accept that his existence could be so comprehensively wiped from the extensive digital records in the future).

jcsoulinger

intheclouds wrote: »

No. I never said they'd be exactly the same. In fact, everything I have said argues the opposite.

What I said was that AI of some sort existed outside because it's unlikely technology exists in isolation.

I've also repeatedly pointed out the endless iterations of narrative loops are only possible in a place like Westworld.

I'm not sure what part of that gives you difficulty.

In my very first post that you quoted I said that AI probably would exist in the real world it just wouldn't be at the level of the hosts in westworld so we agree on that.

I think this technology of bots that think, feel and have memories does exist in isolation tho and no one else bar Arnold and Ford have cracked it yet. If they had the shareholders could quiet easily recreate the loops in the real world imo. Repeating the same point over and over isn't going to change my mind, We have discussed it enough tbh, so will leave it at that.

ManOfMystery

Yoghurt87 wrote: »

Edit - After reading a thread on reddit, it seems that Ford has referred to Arnold's contribution to Westworld being 'scrubbed from the record' by Delos, which I suppose could account for him not being recognised (still, it's somewhat of a stretch to accept that his existence could be so comprehensively wiped from the extensive digital records in the future).

Being digital actually makes it easier.

It doesn't have to be 'wiped' per se. The records of Arnold's contribution could be stored at a level only accessible by Ford or equally high up staff.

If the theory of Westworld being on a different planet is correct too, this would make it easier again to isolate the records from Earth corporations and other staff. They would likely be held in a database housed in the same location as Westworld as transmission to a mirrored database off planet would be too slow.

intheclouds

jcsoulinger wrote: »

I think this technology of bots that think, feel and have memories does exist in isolation tho and no one else bar Arnold and Ford have cracked it yet. If they had the shareholders could quiet easily recreate the loops in the real world imo.

I don't see what the point (for shareholders) of having bots that think, feel and have memories would be in the real world? If they did, then why would people pay to go to Westworld? Surely that would destroy their shares value?

On top of that, there seems to be a huge amount of money spent on control and maintenance in the park. So the bots can't truly be trusted else why do they have a big security staff? I don't see that translating into bots in homes. Who'd be watching them the way they're watched in Westworld?

I'd like to clarify the point on technology existing in isolation. I don't think technology exists in isolation. So it's likely some form of AI exists in the outside world. But not as lifelike for reasons I've already discussed. However, regardless of the technology itself, the conditions of the park are unique and that PLUS the technology is what's giving rise to hosts developing consciousness. It's the perfect storm.

tommy2bad

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Being digital actually makes it easier.

It doesn't have to be 'wiped' per se. The records of Arnold's contribution could be stored at a level only accessible by Ford or equally high up staff.

If the theory of Westworld being on a different planet is correct too, this would make it easier again to isolate the records from Earth corporations and other staff. They would likely be held in a database housed in the same location as Westworld as transmission to a mirrored database off planet would be too slow.

It's specifically stated that Ford keeps all the data on site, so quite easy to erase Arnold from history.

Yoghurt87

tommy2bad wrote: »

It's specifically stated that Ford keeps all the data on site, so quite easy to erase Arnold from history.

But presumably he was born and raised, educated, possibly had his own family, in the outside world. If Westworld was up and running when Arnold was alive, there must be former employees who would have worked with him and would recognise him. I'm still struggling to see how he could be entirely forgotten.

newbuild06

Has it been confirmed that Ford killed Arnold?
What if Arnold made Bernard in his likeness for some reason. Don't know what the reason may be, but could be something that happened between Arnold and Ford??

ManOfMystery

newbuild06 wrote: »

Has it been confirmed that Ford killed Arnold?
What if Arnold made Bernard in his likeness for some reason. Don't know what the reason may be, but could be something that happened between Arnold and Ford??

I don't think it's even been suggested in the show never mind confirmed. We've been told that Arnold died but only show watchers have theorised that Ford did it.

intheclouds

ManOfMystery wrote: »

I don't think it's even been suggested in the show never mind confirmed. We've been told that Arnold died but only show watchers have theorised that Ford did it.

And the Bernard Lowe = Arnold Weber anagram. We've never been told Arnold's surname. People just made that up cos it'd fit nice.

Effects

strawdog wrote: »

Is there any reason or obvious clue why the man in black couldn't be Logan, not William?

That might be the case but I think the actor who plays Logan isn't good enough for that. They aren't investing enough in the character either. That's my feeling anyway.

conorhal

Yoghurt87 wrote: »

That's interesting regarding the glasses. The part that's not adding up for me is that the staff would surely recognise Bernard was a host if he looks the exact same as Arnold? That's also why I can't see Ford giving Bernard the same backstory as Arnold - it would make him too recognisable.

Edit - After reading a thread on reddit, it seems that Ford has referred to Arnold's contribution to Westworld being 'scrubbed from the record' by Delos, which I suppose could account for him not being recognised (still, it's somewhat of a stretch to accept that his existence could be so comprehensively wiped from the extensive digital records in the future).

Well the hosts don't 'see' things that might discombobulate them. The revelation about Bernard opens the question of just how many 'humans' are 'working' in the park, there could be a whole sonderkommando class of host working behind the scene that don't even know they're robots and simply don't 'see' Arnold when interacting with Bernard while the rest of the humans my not have been there long enough to recognise him.

ManOfMystery

There's also the fact that Ford has asked Bernard a few times if he was with the park 'back in those days'. Ford doesn't strike me as a particularly forgetful man, he seems to have no trouble recalling anything else. I'm wondering if this is a constant means of testing/assessing Bernard to see if he has any memories - assuming he is either based on Arnold or has Arnold's memories.

We've also seen so far that Ford has a certain degree of sentimentality and surrounds himself with robotic facsimiles of people (family) who were important in his life. He seems to speak with fondness and regret when talking about Arnold so it's entirely plausible that he created Bernard in Arnold's image.