Westworld (HBO/Sky Atlantic) [** Spoilers **]

cumulonimbus

irishash wrote: »

While you mention the pyro event, there was a large explosion in the 7th episode when they blow up the guy filled with nitro. We saw no request for a pryo in that instance. Now it could be that we were just not shown the behind the scenes request. Or it may be that 30 years ago no requests were needed as health and safety was a little more lax.

Maybe Lawrence didn't need to put in the request as he is a host and it's part of the story, whereas the MIB had to request as he was improvising and his behaviour would not be scripted.

irishash

cumulonimbus wrote: »

Maybe Lawrence didn't need to put in the request as he is a host and it's part of the story, whereas the MIB had to request as he was improvising and his behaviour would not be scripted.

That is an interesting theory. But that would then give a lot of free will to the hosts to perform any small or large explosion. That is a big risk when Delos are careful to control everything else about a host.

I am trying to remember any other time when an explosion happened in the show and where a host was involved and cant think of any. One last thing, when MIB was breaking out the outlaw, if your theory is accurate, he couldnhave just asked the outlaw to light the cigar instead of doing it himself thereby negating the need for permission.

Thargor

irishash wrote: »

That is an interesting theory. But that would then give a lot of free will to the hosts to perform any small or large explosion. That is a big risk when Delos are careful to control everything else about a host.

No, because any host-related explosions are written by the writers, they dont have free will.

Thargor

irishash wrote: »

Not the end of it. When Stubbs is told about a host that has wandered off loop, he makes a request for a retrival. Around the same time he approves the pryo effect. When we see Delores we are viewing the world through her eyes. So when we see William we are seeing her memories. Delores is retracing a journey in the same time period as MIB, but we are seeing multiple events through time via her memories.

While you mention the pyro event, there was a large explosion in the 7th episode when they blow up the guy filled with nitro. We saw no request for a pryo in that instance. Now it could be that we were just not shown the behind the scenes request. Or it may be that 30 years ago no requests were needed as health and safety was a little more lax.

No, he comments on her specifically, its not a random host.

irishash

Thargor wrote: »

No, he comments on her specifically, its not a random host.

It does not matter as that event does not prove nor disprove the william/MiB theory.

Dair76

Maybe I'm remembering things incorrectly, but doesn't the church steeple also disprove the twin timeline theory? I thought we saw Ford at the steeple jutting out of the sand, making it buried in the present day. It was in the same state for William and Dolores - she sees it "restored" in a flashback. Or am I totally wrong here?

I'm also a little put off by Maeve and the techs' storyline. Just seems poorly written. I would be appeased however, if the Asian tech turns out to be a host... To what end? No idea.

corkie

FunLover18 wrote: »

Have we not already seen Wyatt in Teddy's flashbacks to his new backstory?

irishash wrote: »

I thought the same, but it has never been confirmed that the person in the flashbacks is Wyatt. Also, if there is already a host Wyatt, then why did Sizemore think he was scripting with Wyatt? He would already know of there was an existing model?

It could be that Wyatt is a phantom, a metaphor for somebody else. It is hinted that maybe Delores was the host that killed everybody in the small town (making her Wyatt). But again the question is asked why not retire her if that us what happened.

IMDB to the rescue, although Wyatt had not had a listing a few weeks back.

Sorin Brouwers is now credited with the role of Wyatt!

And we will see him again in Episode 9 - The Well-Tempered Clavier

Plus previously seen in

E06 - The Adversary (2016) ... Wyatt
E03 - The Stray (2016) ... Wyatt

Thargor

irishash wrote: »

It does not matter as that event does not prove nor disprove the william/MiB theory.

How could it not? We have the same guy dealing with both characters, bit of an oversight by the writers if not.

cumulonimbus

Thargor wrote: »

How could it not? We have the same guy dealing with both characters, bit of an oversight by the writers if not.

Not if he is a host also.

irishash

Thargor wrote: »

How could it not? We have the same guy dealing with both characters, bit of an oversight by the writers if not.

And one of them is a character that has existed in the park for over 30 years. This action does not disprove the multiple timeline theory. If it did then this would not still be a major talking point of the show.

irishash

cumulonimbus wrote: »

Not if he is a host also.

I dont think stubbs is a host. The conversation he had with Bernard seems to have made him suspicious of him. I believe he is thinking in that instance that Bernard is not acting in a very human way. Of all the characters in the show, Stubbs is the one with the most distrust of the hosts. His reading of people may be the most telling.

cumulonimbus

But Bernard did not realise that he (Bernard) was a host until Ford showed him. Perhaps Stubbs is another host who thinks he is human.
After Bernard I am viewing all the characters with suspicion.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

MadYaker

Id bet money that the black girl from the board is a host.

A few things I caught in episode 8 on a second viewing...

When Ford is wiping Bernard's mind of the true nature of his relationship with Theresa, along with the fact that he killed her, Ford said it was best to rid Bernard of his grief and these memories or it might raise questions/suspicions later on with others. Well, later on suspicions were indeed raised, with Stubbs, but it was only because of the lack of grief and emotion Bernard was showing at a time when he should have been emotional. A rare oversight on the part of Ford who surely should have known of the strong possibility that there were others who knew in such a close working environment about Bernard and Theresa's relationship.

The other things I noticed relate to the multiple timelines theory. It's interesting, when I last posted in this forum over a month ago I was sure that multiple timelines in Westworld were solely a thing of fan fiction and the show was dealing with the present only. Now though, I'm not so sure of that, with me now leaning towards there most certainly being multiple timelines visited in Westworld, and also William is very possibly MiB thirty years in the past. Episode 8 has all but made me a convert to these theories, with some strong hints in the episode...

There are the things MiB talked about in his 'confession' with Teddy, like the fact that he got married thirty years ago. This is revealed while we already know that William is due to marry Logan's sister once they leave the park. However, It wasn't anything from MiB's ramblings to Teddy that really pricked my ears up, it was the following two things, both involving William and Delores...

1. While we are finishing one scene between Ford and Bernard, Ford is advising Bernard on how now to proceed as a host and also giving him a speech on consciousness. The scene then transitions from Ford/Bernard in the lab to a canyon setting for Delores/William. The scene transition to the canyon occurs but Ford's advice to Bernard continues as a voice-over, bridging the two scenes. The scene switches to the canyon halfway through the following sentence from Ford to Bernard: "Best not to dwell on these troubling memories, otherwise you might be drawn back into them, you might lose yourself in them as some of your fellow hosts have...from time to time." Once Ford finishes his sentence, Delores arrives on screen with William. I'm struggling to see this as anything other than a huge sign that Delores is reliving a past journey with William.

2. During the episode we see Delores and William arrive at the buried town, with only the black steeple protruding the surface of the dirt and everything else buried beneath. I could be mistaken, but in an earlier episode I believe this is the town Ford said that he wanted to excavate for his new story. Well by episode 8, according to Charlotte, Ford has already had the town dug up for his story. In the scene where Sizemore is prepping a new cannibalistic villain and Charlotte comes in and tells him that Ford is just keeping him busy with this task, it is here that she reveals that he has already dug up the town. If we are talking about the same town here and I'm not mistaken, there's no way the town can be both in a state of being buried and excavated in the same episode. Unless of course the town is being visited and talked about in two different timelines here. Edit: I've checked that scene with Sizemore and Charlotte once more, she says to him about the town "You really think Ford has entrusted you with a key character for his story? He's already almost finished with it, he dug up some old town on the fringes of the park..."

Yes, this was definitely the episode which brought me over to the multiple timelines darkside. There were other signs of it, like Delores having another 'where did everybody go?' moment while she was over fetching water from the river for the wounded soldier. Just like on the train with William and Laurence a few episodes ago, she suddenly found herself alone and confused, like she's reliving a journey and some old memories all by herself.

We saw it with Maeve slashing new Clementine's throat as she was remembering slashing MiB's throat. We saw it with Delores putting the gun to her own head as she was having a flashback to doing the same after possibly laying waste to a town. Hosts don't just remember memories, but live them out while doing so.

Going to wrap this up now, but I could keep going on the multiple timelines evidence. I'm more surprised than anyone, as someone who dismissed the notion only a month ago and can't STFU about it now. Thankfully though, to the best of my memory, I don't think I was smug or condescending about it :pac:

Mitch Connor

irishash wrote: »

Not the end of it. When Stubbs is told about a host that has wandered off loop, he makes a request for a retrival. Around the same time he approves the pryo effect. When we see Delores we are viewing the world through her eyes. So when we see William we are seeing her memories. Delores is retracing a journey in the same time period as MIB, but we are seeing multiple events through time via her memories.

While you mention the pyro event, there was a large explosion in the 7th episode when they blow up the guy filled with nitro. We saw no request for a pryo in that instance. Now it could be that we were just not shown the behind the scenes request. Or it may be that 30 years ago no requests were needed as health and safety was a little more lax.

The pyro event requested by MiB was a non-scripted pyro event created/wanted by a guest. the pyro event with the nitro filled body was part of the narrative of the story in question, and actioned completely by a host.

So it would make sense that there is a difference in how they would be treated (request or not) within the park - and I don't see how this would tie in to any theory on multiple timelines.

ManOfMystery

Thargor wrote: »

WTF are you on about? Are you still going with this gibberish even after the MiB explains that he came to Westworld after his wife kills herself and he wanted to do something horrible? Or the fact that she is having flashbacks about being killed by the MiB while with William in the recent episode?

Tell you what, you keep discussing your points with everyone else and I'll discuss mine and we'll just agree to disagree. You sound like you're becoming increasingly irate because you can't wrap your head round my thoughts on the show or the point I'm trying to get across. It's only a TV show ffs.

ManOfMystery

stankratz wrote: »

A few things I caught in episode 8 on a second viewing...

When Ford is wiping Bernard's mind of the true nature of his relationship with Theresa, along with the fact that he killed her, Ford said it was best to rid Bernard of his grief and these memories or it might raise questions/suspicions later on with others. Well, later on suspicions were indeed raised, with Stubbs, but it was only because of the lack of grief and emotion Bernard was showing at a time when he should have been emotional. A rare oversight on the part of Ford who surely should have known of the strong possibility that there were others who knew in such a close working environment about Bernard and Theresa's relationship.

I'd use the term 'plausible deniability' here. It may have been a rare oversight, or Ford may have thought it through and decided that of the two options available to him - let Bernard remember, or make Bernard forget - the safer option was to make him forget. Bernard was having a difficult time dealing with what he did and being questioned by Stubbs may have made him break down, if he had remembered the events. At least with no memory, he won't fall apart and expose Ford, even if his manner is somewhat cold. Bernard has always been a little bit clinical anyway.

The other things I noticed relate to the multiple timelines theory. It's interesting, when I last posted in this forum over a month ago I was sure that multiple timelines in Westworld were solely a thing of fan fiction and the show was dealing with the present only. Now though, I'm not so sure of that, with me now leaning towards there most certainly being multiple timelines visited in Westworld, and also William is very possibly MiB thirty years in the past. Episode 8 has all but made me a convert to these theories, with some strong hints in the episode...

There are the things MiB talked about in his 'confession' with Teddy, like the fact that he got married thirty years ago. This is revealed while we already know that William is due to marry Logan's sister once they leave the park. However, It wasn't anything from MiB's ramblings to Teddy that really pricked my ears up, it was the following two things, both involving William and Delores...

1. While we are finishing one scene between Ford and Bernard, Ford is advising Bernard on how now to proceed as a host and also giving him a speech on consciousness. The scene then transitions from Ford/Bernard in the lab to a canyon setting for Delores/William. The scene transition to the canyon occurs but Ford's advice to Bernard continues as a voice-over, bridging the two scenes. The scene switches to the canyon halfway through the following sentence from Ford to Bernard: "Best not to dwell on these troubling memories, otherwise you might be drawn back into them, you might lose yourself in them as some of your fellow hosts have...from time to time." Once Ford finishes his sentence, Delores arrives on screen with William. I'm struggling to see this as anything other than a huge sign that Delores is reliving a past journey with William.

2. During the episode we see Delores and William arrive at the buried town, with only the black steeple protruding the surface of the dirt and everything else buried beneath. I could be mistaken, but in an earlier episode I believe this is the town Ford said that he wanted to excavate for his new story. Well by episode 8, according to Charlotte, Ford has already had the town dug up for his story. In the scene where Sizemore is prepping a new cannibalistic villain and Charlotte comes in and tells him that Ford is just keeping him busy with this task, it is here that she reveals that he has already dug up the town. If we are talking about the same town here and I'm not mistaken, there's no way the town can be both in a state of being buried and excavated in the same episode. Unless of course the town is being visited and talked about in two different timelines here. Edit: I've checked that scene with Sizemore and Charlotte once more, she says to him about the town "You really think Ford has entrusted you with a key character for his story? He's already almost finished with it, he dug up some old town on the fringes of the park..."

Yes, this was definitely the episode which brought me over to the multiple timelines darkside. There were other signs of it, like Delores having another 'where did everybody go?' moment while she was over fetching water from the river for the wounded soldier. Just like on the train with William and Laurence a few episodes ago, she suddenly found herself alone and confused, like she's reliving a journey and some old memories all by herself.

We saw it with Maeve slashing new Clementine's throat as she was remembering slashing MiB's throat. We saw it with Delores putting the gun to her own head as she was having a flashback to doing the same after possibly laying waste to a town. Hosts don't just remember memories, but live them out while doing so.

Going to wrap this up now, but I could keep going on the multiple timelines evidence. I'm more surprised than anyone, as someone who dismissed the notion only a month ago and can't STFU about it now. Thankfully though, to the best of my memory, I don't think I was smug or condescending about it :pac:

Spot on and well thought out.

Turtwig

I can't recall in all those scenes of the assault of dolores' home are we shown who the mother is?

errlloyd

There is one thing that I am beginning to think is important.

Way back in episode one when the MiB takes Dolores into the barn, it is assumed he assaults her, but we never actually see. Drawing on all the other theories, I believe that what he was actually doing was try to see if she remembers him - or trying to fix her to make her remember.

I think the Dolores story is effectively going to be this,

William enters the park with Logan and meets Dolores. Goes on adventure, falls in love. Finds out it isn't real and resents it.

Gets married hates his wife because she isn't Dolores, keeps going back to the park to try and get the same love, becomes more frustrated that he never gets anything from Dolores, but each time he visits he sort of hopes she remembers.

Wife kills herself, so he goes back and experiments with removing whatever limits Meave's memory, and he doesn't know yet, but he has suceeded. He will see Meave escape from the park, realise he has done it.

Then he will go to Dolores house, kill everyone, drag her into the barn, and remove whatever limits her memory too.

CastorTroy

Turtwig wrote: »

I can't recall in all those scenes of the assault of dolores' home are we shown who the mother is?

They seem to intentionally hide her identity

conorhal

errlloyd wrote: »

There is one thing that I am beginning to think is important.

Way back in episode one when the MiB takes Dolores into the barn, it is assumed he assaults her, but we never actually see. Drawing on all the other theories, I believe that what he was actually doing was try to see if she remembers him - or trying to fix her to make her remember.

I think the Dolores story is effectively going to be this,

William enters the park with Logan and meets Dolores. Goes on adventure, falls in love. Finds out it isn't real and resents it.

Gets married hates his wife because she isn't Dolores, keeps going back to the park to try and get the same love, becomes more frustrated that he never gets anything from Dolores, but each time he visits he sort of hopes she remembers.

Wife kills herself, so he goes back and experiments with removing whatever limits Meave's memory, and he doesn't know yet, but he has suceeded. He will see Meave escape from the park, realise he has done it.

Then he will go to Dolores house, kill everyone, drag her into the barn, and remove whatever limits her memory too.

I don't know what he's doing in the barn, but it surely isn't good. Clearly strong or traumatic memories are ones that the hosts seem to hold on to, it's possible that MIB has done inumerable awful things to her in an effort to create a history of memories that will come to the fore and cause her to question her reality. That's his aim and we know his 'methodology' for personal discovery is, well, pretty brutal.

Ping Chow Chi

What if the MiB isn't William, but his douchebag boss\friend .. whatever he is. I can't see William being that monsterous that his wife would kill herself, but his mate, maybe.

ManOfMystery

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

What if the MiB isn't William, but his douchebag boss\friend .. whatever he is. I can't see William being that monsterous that his wife would kill herself, but his mate, maybe.

Could be. But I don't see it. Where's the character development if that's the case? He starts off a douche, becomes a bigger douche. Why would his wife kill herself knowing he was a douche from day one anyway? It's not like Logan hides his characteristics, he wears them proudly.

To me, William makes more sense. He is essentially a good guy in the outside world - as the MIB seems to be too - but has this side of himself that is somewhat cruel and sadistic, and only within the confines of the park can he truly reveal that side. It's been buried deep inside him all his life until he came to the park. His wife obviously found out about this side of him at some point, and knowing that he's not the guy she thought he was is what drives her to suicide. Is that not more plausible?

jcsoulinger

There is also the more glaring physical evidence of their eyes being very different colours.

Logan was personality wise originally a better match but the more it plays out the more we see a different side to william.

If William is mib, I wouldn't be surprised if

he ends up being complicit in Logans death and that's how he ends up head of the massive organisation

alchemist33

The two lab techs, Felix and Sylvester? Both cats. Just saying.




(The techs all evolved from cats, like on red dwarf)

Turtwig

Reckon a huge turning point for William will comes when either he or dolores kills Logan.

Essien

Turtwig wrote: »

Reckon a huge turning point for William will comes when either he or dolores kills Logan.

I reckon Williams wife (and possibly the rest of Logan's family) will blame him in some way, or at least be resentful of him since he was with Logan when he died. All in theory obviously.

Also, in this episode MiB remarks that the blonde host he and Teddy meet is still in circulation, suggesting he's been aware of her for a very long time.

This is the same host who introduced William to Westworld in episode 2.

Edit: Missed that being mentioned earlier.

Kirby

I stayed away from any information or spoilers about this show so I could binge it. I just watched the show from episodes 1-8 over the last couple of days. Really enjoying it. I love me some good sci-fi and this definitely qualifies. The modern music in the saloon is a lovely touch that always makes me smile.

I consider myself a fairly astute fellow but completely missed your timeline/William/Ed Harris theory. Mind is blown reading it now and it does make sense. Quite a lot of sense. Interested to see if it comes to fruition now or if we are made wait.....or if it's not true at all!

Kirby

irishash wrote: »

Lastly, does anybody else think there is a significance that the idiot board member choose Abernathy to carry the park data? She would not know he had a problem prior to his retirement, although Sizemore should? Just seems strange that of all the hosts down there, they picked him. Sure he is fresher looking than a lot of them, but still, something may happen because of that decision.

I wouldn't read too much into that. The actor is a good one and they likely want to use him as much as possible.