Westworld (HBO/Sky Atlantic) [** Spoilers **]

Drumpot

expectationlost wrote: »

it took 30 years? i got the impression he spent the last 30 years stopping the hosts from becoming sentient, it seemed liked he had only turned on the reveries at the start of the season and this is when things changed


did he not know Arnold had merged her with a killer AI? did he really not think she had the programming to do it?

I also thought that he was keeping the hosts in until he revealed he changed his mind and agreed with Arnold shortly after he died. By then the corporation (With william in charge) had taken ownership of the park. Ford spent the 30 years working with the hosts to help get to where the season 1 story ended. Lots of questions like why it took him so long and was there not easier ways of achieving this will had to be answered by others but I think an exchange with Bernard might hint at the answer.

Why didn't Ford let Bernard in on his plan ? Because he wanted Bernard to choose to be with him. He wanted Bernard to make a different choice and it suggested that it took those decades of practising with different stories and possibly technology for the hosts to get to the stage where they could be fully aware and make choices outside of what Ford programmed them to do.

The pain memories were key. Arnold had tragedy in his life through the death of his son which greatly influenced his sentiments towards the hosts. Ford didn't understand until the tragedy of Arnold's death helped him realise He was wrong and Arnold was right all along.

I think when it was clear that he was going to be sacked he knew he had to initiate his plan to free the hosts. That is why series one looks like he is only beginning to come on board, because it's the end of Ford (possibly mankind) and the start of the era of the hosts. He had probably disposed of other corporate people in the past and perhaps it was getting to the stage where he knew he couldn't go on forever. Even with Elsie and the security guy snooping around the park , perhaps it was getting harder for him to keep his true intentions hidden.

Ford knew exactly what Arnold had done. Not only that, he continued on Arnold's work and was counting on Wyatt turning up for his final story... As I said, the only difference (at least what I think) between Arnold and Fords death was Dolores was able to decide whether or not To kill ford. On that level, Ford had given Dolores that extra level of consciousness that Arnold couldn't. The triangle was complete. (Again, I might be wrong but this is at least what I thought!)

Cina

stankratz wrote: »

Just had a thought earlier - By the time we get to see a new episode of Westworld in 2018 there will be no more new episodes of Game of Thrones to watch...ever

depends when we see it, as there will be GoT in 2018.

Lionbacker

Love some of the little easter eggs revelaed in this.

Cina

Cina wrote: »

depends when we see it, as there will be GoT in 2018.

True indeed. If however Westworld runs at the same time of year as it did in 2016, it will resume after Thrones finishes its run in 2018. As well as that, WW is HBO's attempt at a new 'juggernaut' to take over GoT's mantle now that it's approaching its conclusion. In that case, it would make sense to start season 2 of WW the week after GoT finishes if possible, in order to catch new viewers at a loss once Thrones ends.

However, I read a post-finale interview with the WW show-runners where they said that they would need 2 years between every season, not just between the first and second, in order to give them the time it would take to write and make each season the best it could be. They also said that they envisioned a story for 5 seasons, with the show taking up 10 years of their (the show-runners') lives. Seems to be more than their call than the network's. The show-runners also point out that GoT is able to produce 10 high quality episodes per year, but that GoT has the benefit of adapting from a previously written story and that is a big help in producing a season per year.

I would love to see Westworld back in January 2017, but I think this show will put The Soprano's off-season breaks to shame unfortunately. Going on the show-runners' words anyway...

http://collider.com/westworld-season-2-finale-spoilers/#samurai-world

relevant quote...

Jonathan Nolan wrote:

“We said very early on that we wouldn’t be able to turn this around every year, and knowing full well that that’s been a time-honored tradition in television. But in film, my other life, on the Batman movies, the best we could do is turn another one around in three years. I really feel like we’re splitting the difference here.”

ManOfMystery

expectationlost wrote: »

she cares for her daughter because she was programmed to

Originally, in that earlier narrative yes. But she then had her memory wiped by Ford and programmed with a new narrative as a madame.

But despite that, and despite the fact that she has apparently fully awakened to the realisation of what she is, and despite the fact that she has shed off all her programming for the most part ............................... she still felt a burning desire to find her 'daughter' when she saw the other parent/child on the train. There seems to be a genuine compassion there.

Like the rest of the show, this plot angle again asks big questions of consciousness, love, relationships. Why do we care for our children? It may seem a horribly blunt question but there have been studies carried out before into this - parents feel a natural bond to their child almost immediately, with an overwhelming desire to nurture them, protect them, educate them and so on. Why do we instantly feel like that when we have not yet had any time to build a relationship with a newborn? Is that not a form of genetic programming on our part, and if so, then how is Maeve's unconscious connection to her child any different really?

It will be interesting to see where they go with this, particularly if she finds the child (host) and they have no recollection of Maeve or any desire to bond with her.

There's an almost Russian egg approach here too. Arnold and Ford have created these hosts and over 35+yrs led them to the point of sentience. Ford looks upon them almost as a father finally letting his children roam out into the world to fend for themselves. And here we see Maeve being 1 step away from total freedom, but instead choosing to pursue that maternal relationship instead and act as a parent herself.

Lionbacker

Lionbacker wrote: »

Love some of the little easter eggs revelaed in this.

Didn't we see a short clip of Elsie being choked from behind by Bernard at some point? Possibly in the last episode

ManOfMystery

Deleted User wrote: »

Didn't we see a short clip of Elsie being choked from behind by Bernard at some point? Possibly in the last episode

Yes but like Stubbs, there was nothing conclusive to say she died. I suspect that she's still alive and it was her who programmed the hosts who captured Stubbs.

expectationlost

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Originally, in that earlier narrative yes. But she then had her memory wiped by Ford and programmed with a new narrative as a madame.

But despite that, and despite the fact that she has apparently fully awakened to the realisation of what she is, and despite the fact that she has shed off all her programming for the most part ............................... she still felt a burning desire to find her 'daughter' when she saw the other parent/child on the train. There seems to be a genuine compassion there.

Like the rest of the show, this plot an

she cares for her daughter because she was programmed to, then allowed to access her memories

ManOfMystery

expectationlost wrote: »

she cares for her daughter because she was programmed to then allowed to access her memories

Ok.

errlloyd

Drumpot wrote: »

I think when it was clear that he was going to be sacked he knew he had to initiate his plan to free the hosts. That is why series one looks like he is only beginning to come on board, because it's the end of Ford (possibly mankind) and the start of the era of the hosts.

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Yes but like Stubbs, there was nothing conclusive to say she died. I suspect that she's still alive and it was her who programmed the hosts who captured Stubbs.

I guess I've been playing over the feeling that these things are related and could be the twist that opens season 2.

My mental fan theory is that Dolores and Meave are very close to concious, but not there yet, and Ford knows it, but he was running out of time. Based on that I think Ford used Bernard to lure Elsie out because he needed her help to get them sentient. She rescued Stubbs as stated above.

The Ford who Dolores shot in the head, potentially a host, potentially the real thing. The whole ending was to buy time, it was to allow Ford to demonstrate to William that they were working on his deeper game. William will survive and cover up what happened and allow the park to keep going for the time required to let Elsie and possibly the surviving real Ford to finish his narrative about Dolores getting to the sea, and escaping Westworld.

Just my theory.

Daroxtar

Going slightly against the grain here, but I loved Maeve. I thought Thandie Newton was brilliant, her withering delivery was hilarious, sexy and totally bad ass. I didn't mind the weakness in her storyline with the two techs, I just really enjoyed watching her in action. Her "Oh for fukc sake" to Felix was priceless

ManOfMystery

errlloyd wrote: »

I guess I've been playing over the feeling that these things are related and could be the twist that opens season 2.

My mental fan theory is that Dolores and Meave are very close to concious, but not there yet, and Ford knows it, but he was running out of time. Based on that I think Ford used Bernard to lure Elsie out because he needed her help to get them sentient. She rescued Stubbs as stated above.

The Ford who Dolores shot in the head, potentially a host, potentially the real thing. The whole ending was to buy time, it was to allow Ford to demonstrate to William that they were working on his deeper game. William will survive and cover up what happened and allow the park to keep going for the time required to let Elsie and possibly the surviving real Ford to finish his narrative about Dolores getting to the sea, and escaping Westworld.

Just my theory.

Would be behind all of this apart from one thing, I think Dolores is fully conscious now.

Have a read of this interview with Evan Rachel Wood

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/westworld-finale-dolores-twist-evan-rachel-wood-interview-season-two-953141

Daroxtar wrote: »

Going slightly against the grain here, but I loved Maeve. I thought Thandie Newton was brilliant, her withering delivery was hilarious, sexy and totally bad ass. I didn't mind the weakness in her storyline with the two techs, I just really enjoyed watching her in action. Her "Oh for fukc sake" to Felix was priceless

She was great. All the cast were pretty good, but Hopkins, Newton, Harris and Wood sealed the deal for me.

Mitch Connor

Did Bernard not have a memory of him killing Elise, and have a conversation with Ford about it (after Ford had told him Teressa was the only one he had killed) - with Ford saying he just didn't want to burden Bernard with the memory of him having killed Elise - or were Ford's comments more obtuse on that fact?

alchemist33

Lionbacker wrote: »

Love some of the little easter eggs revelaed in this.

I too thought SW meant Samurai World, but it could also be SouthWorld.

And putting 2 and 2 together to make 5, that could mean four parks at cardinal points and another in the middle, 5 for 5 seasons.

Mitch Connor

alchemist33 wrote: »

I too thought SW meant Samurai World, but it could also be SouthWorld.

And putting 2 and 2 together to make 5, that could mean four parks at cardinal points and another in the middle, 5 for 5 seasons.

there is an interview from the last day or so stating it is a Samurai-Shogun World - with the tie in between western and eastern cinema (westerns and samurai movies) being the reason for these being the two worlds we have seen.

Nolan wrote:

This samurai-shogun world, for us, has a very specific relation to the Western. Some of my favorite movies are the Sergio Leone adaptations of the Akira Kurosawa samurai films: The Seven Samurai and The Magnificent Seven. In the period when the Western was the biggest genre in the world, the interplay between Westerns and samurai films in the domestic market in Japan was really cool. On that meta level, those two genres have this almost incestuous relationship with each other. We just couldn’t resist.

ManOfMystery

It will be interesting to see what other worlds they unveil, if any. I assume Medieval world is no-go as it would be too close in content to Game of Thrones. Future World perhaps? Roman World?

ahlookit

ManOfMystery wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what other worlds they unveil, if any. I assume Medieval world is no-go as it would be too close in content to Game of Thrones. Future World perhaps? Roman World?

Ocean, Aztec, Medieval, Futuristic. Oh no, wait, that was Crystal Maze.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Did Bernard not have a memory of him killing Elise, and have a conversation with Ford about it (after Ford had told him Teressa was the only one he had killed) - with Ford saying he just didn't want to burden Bernard with the memory of him having killed Elise - or were Ford's comments more obtuse on that fact?

He had a memory of grabbing her from behind but we don't know if he killed her. Perhaps she was recruited by Ford (albeit aggressively) who felt she would be sympathetic to his cause.

Ford was playing everybody and at the same time appeared to be an exceptional reader of human behaviour. That would make sense given his creation and life work in perfecting a human like being.

Perhaps it also meant he didn't want to burden Bernard with things that he might not understand or like. Or maybe it suited fords plan that Bernard didn't know about Elsie's abduction/attack/murder?!

Drumpot

I download the soundtrack and it's just epic.

Not only that it brings back so many scenes and memories from series 1 that makes the show even better. I actually can't wait to binge watch the show over Christmas.

Mitch Connor

ManOfMystery wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what other worlds they unveil, if any. I assume Medieval world is no-go as it would be too close in content to Game of Thrones. Future World perhaps? Roman World?

Plot twist - Game of Thrones is a Delos Park!

alchemist33

It would explain Jon Snow being patched up anyway.

ManOfMystery

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Plot twist - Game of Thrones is a Delos Park!

Someone on Reddit suggested the same. HBO do run them both after all. Would be the twist of all twists

Winter is coming Dolores.....

qwabercd

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Yes but like Stubbs, there was nothing conclusive to say she died. I suspect that she's still alive and it was her who programmed the hosts who captured Stubbs.

When did Stubbs get captured by the hosts?

Duckworth_Luas

GRR Martin apparently pitched the idea of a Westerosworld within the theme park to Nolan. Link

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qwabercd

....... wrote: »

He went looking for Elsie and Ghost Nation took him down.

No recollection of this, must have missed it!

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MOH

qwabercd wrote: »

No recollection of this, must have missed it!

Was near the end of ep 9 I think

Effects

expectationlost wrote: »

she cares for her daughter because she was programmed to

In much the same way humans are "programmed" by evolution to care for their offspring.

pixelburp

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Yes but like Stubbs, there was nothing conclusive to say she died. I suspect that she's still alive and it was her who programmed the hosts who captured Stubbs.

Well to paraphrase the classic axiom of TV and cinema, if we didn't see the body, they're not dead.

And considering HBO hasn't exactly been shy in showing every death or dong in detail, it's fair to presume Elsie and Stubbs are still alive.