Westworld (HBO/Sky Atlantic) [ Spoilers ]

RDM_83 again · 14-12-2016 2:51pm

Ok couple of things.

For Sylvester he has another opportunity to kill her when he is alone replacing the explosives in her neck, that's after he knows she hates him and is from his view unpredictably violent. That's aside from the earlier chance just to turn her stats down. That's not being irrationally fearful it's for the former situation it's likely suicidal.

I get the Felix character but for a supposedly empathetic person he doesn't seem to care about all the human he knows being killed.

The security want to contain it but why don't they take more shots every time they hesitate. I can buy the fact maeve circumvented a lot of the lockouts oo actually.

If the techs have so much access to the root programming why does QA and the board have such an issue with getting the intellectual property they literally own.

Most importantly somebody presumably ford knows rewrites her to go to the train and breakout, so ford must know literally everything about how people will respond and has a sub plan in action aside from the main one.

In the last episodes Ford is an infallible super villian rather than a manipulative smart old man.
I also have a huge hatred of the incompetent irrational underlings lazy writing trope (see Prometheus!)

I did like the MiB storyline alright, I just think the show slipped for the last couple of episodes and I am not so hopeful about next season whereas if you asked me at say episode 6 would have thought it was one of the best shows ever

corkie · 14-12-2016 2:54pm

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Is it possible that thandie newtons character is in a third timeline separate from the young William , Ed Harris ones?

I'm trying to remember if there is any significant cross overs between her story and the others that would make that not work (I've only watched the series once )

Must of her story occurs in the "Present" timeline, except where she is remembering been killed my MiB, which happened over a year past "Present" timeline.

William and Logon, never meet her in the past timeline.

Optimus Prime · 14-12-2016 3:06pm

If the "new storyline" Anthony Hopkins was working Involved "escapeing" and her programming was changed to escape, then that whole story including the two engineer guys could all be planned including both of them being hosts and they have played it out multiple times, that's why I say third timeline (future) as she doesn't really interact with the other two. the only difference this time being that she chooses to go after her "child" on the train. Going off her path.

I also think the reveal of a samurai land being something never mentioned by Hopkins the creator of the park also indicates to me it's in the future after his death where the park expands beyond his control.

Just speculating and probably way off. I need to watch it again I think haha I got all the rest of it while watching and kinda figured it out before it was revealed but something is off about thandie newtons storyline to me. They could go a lot of directions with it.

Fred Swanson · 14-12-2016 3:12pm

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ManOfMystery · 14-12-2016 3:14pm

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Is it possible that thandie newtons character is in a third timeline separate from the young William , Ed Harris ones?

I'm trying to remember if there is any significant cross overs between her story and the others that would make that not work (I've only watched the series once )

Pretty sure it's all in the present. MIB indicated that he killed Maeve's daughter about 'a year ago' after his wife died to see if he would feel anything, and facially he doesn't look to have aged any more.

Optimus Prime · 14-12-2016 3:20pm

I'm just throwing it out there, I could be way off and probably am!

After he kills her daughter do you see him with her again? I don't remember seeing him with her again. It's a year ago in the Ed Harris timeline, but the one where thandie newton ends up on the train could be years later after Hopkins is dead.

I mean she doesn't age so it could be fifty years in the future.

mloc123 · 14-12-2016 3:21pm

Optimus Prime wrote: »

If the "new storyline" Anthony Hopkins was working Involved "escapeing" and her programming was changed to escape, then that whole story including the two engineer guys could all be planned including both of them being hosts and they have played it out multiple times, that's why I say third timeline (future) as she doesn't really interact with the other two. the only difference this time being that she chooses to go after her "child" on the train. Going off her path.

It is the 'present' storyline... they found Bernard after he shot himself... unless he has shot himself a number of time

Optimus Prime · 14-12-2016 3:23pm

I forgot about that , He could have shot himself a few times ! Didn't Hopkins say that at one stage, he also could have been lying there 50 years or it could all be part of the new storyline Hopkins wrote.

This stuff is why this show stands out to me. Lots to think about and work out.

mloc123 · 14-12-2016 3:30pm

My theory on the escape narrative..

Ford said to Bernard that the hosts had to suffer, they had to know what they were up against and how they could defeat them etc..

I think that Maeve had overcome this and had 'unlocked' the escape story. Bernard was told he had to suffer much more by Ford to be free (escape). So perhaps they all have an escape narrative which can only be triggered after the criteria is met.

Optimus Prime · 14-12-2016 3:34pm

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't even Antony Hopkins human character that shot himself, it could be a host he created to kick off the storyline or some other long game he is playing.

Foxtrol · 14-12-2016 3:52pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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If they were able to analyse and change their code, know in the first place that there was explosives in them then I'm sure they'd be able to check if explosives were still present.

Mitch Connor · 14-12-2016 4:21pm

The showrunners have said Hopkins death was a real death, so I'm going to take them at their word. Maybe there will be a host Ford in season to, but have to believe the real Ford is dead.

Effects · 14-12-2016 4:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think his daughter then went on to kill herself too?

Where'd you get that from?

14-12-2016 4:24pm

Effects wrote: »

Where'd you get that from?

Did he say it? Maybe not

Effects · 14-12-2016 4:46pm

Optimus Prime wrote: »

but the one where thandie newton ends up on the train could be years later after Hopkins is dead.
I mean she doesn't age so it could be fifty years in the future.

That doesn't really fit the storyline though.

OwaynOTT · 14-12-2016 10:31pm

What host was Ford making in that remote workshop under his fake house?
I was assuming it was going to be that head woman that Bernard was involved with but she is known as dead.
Could be that Elise technician but she never turned back up and is rather a minor character/player.
We know it takes a while to make the host at the remote location, sonwhomever it is meant to be, Ford has been planning it for a while.
Could it be himself?

ManOfMystery · 15-12-2016 11:11am

OwaynOTT wrote: »

What host was Ford making in that remote workshop under his fake house?
I was assuming it was going to be that head woman that Bernard was involved with but she is known as dead.
Could be that Elise technician but she never turned back up and is rather a minor character/player.
We know it takes a while to make the host at the remote location, sonwhomever it is meant to be, Ford has been planning it for a while.
Could it be himself?

I don't think it was anyone specific, as far as the story goes. I think they showed that body being created for 2 reasons.

First, to let us actually know that Ford can create his own hosts (albeit at a slower pace) independently of the park's main plant where they create host bodies. Which means that it's feasible for Ford to have hosts in the park - like the facsimiles of his family - which the park staff don't know about, which aren't registered on their systems, and which they can't control.

Secondly, it's possibly there just as a plot device/exit strategy. Jonathan Nolan has said, and I quote - "that version of Ford is dead" - yet also stated that the Ford we saw dying was human, and not a host. These statements don't preclude the possibility of a host version of Ford appearing in future, either a facsimile of Ford or possibly one which he has found a way to download his memories into, if that technology exists. I feel they showed the body being created so if they choose to pursue this storyline and Anthony Hopkins is open to returning, it will be believable and not seem like a ridiculous retcon.

CatInABox · 15-12-2016 12:53pm

I suppose what the creators say about Fords death could also rely on how they see conscious hosts. If a host is conscious, are they a host or are they human? That might explain why they said that the Ford that died was "a real Ford", as they consider him human, even if he was technically a host. Works the other way too, if Ford is dead, but has created a conscious host version of himself, isn't that technically human?

In fact, that's what I believe the board were after in the first place, consciousness transferal into a host, thereby making it human and extending life indefinitely.

TheDoc · 15-12-2016 2:08pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

What was so unusual about the handshake?

Thought it was a clear and obvious sign that the Ford in that scene was a host.

As mentioned by another poster there, there is reference to how the Hosts would have difficulties with things like shaking hands. The camera zoomed on that for a pretty particular reason I felt. The shake was a bit weird, and there was odd colouring and skin tones.

To be honest myself and the misses had kinda figured out what the grand finale was to be, and at that point, we pretty much assumed the Ford on stage was a host. A few episodes back Ford is working on a host in the lab and you never see "what" he is working on.

I personally probably wished this wasn't the case, as I thought that ending could have left an absolute barnstorming all encompassed TV show. Just one season, leave it there, and instant hit.

When it finished the misses said on IMDB it has episodes for a Season 2, we pretty much gathered our thoughts were likely correct.

We were spot on about the timelines thing, so I guess we are confident this is a show we are "getting"

ManOfMystery · 15-12-2016 2:15pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Thought it was a clear and obvious sign that the Ford in that scene was a host.

As mentioned by another poster there, there is reference to how the Hosts would have difficulties with things like shaking hands. The camera zoomed on that for a pretty particular reason I felt. The shake was a bit weird, and there was odd colouring and skin tones.

To be honest myself and the misses had kinda figured out what the grand finale was to be, and at that point, we pretty much assumed the Ford on stage was a host. A few episodes back Ford is working on a host in the lab and you never see "what" he is working on.

I personally probably wished this wasn't the case, as I thought that ending could have left an absolute barnstorming all encompassed TV show. Just one season, leave it there, and instant hit.

When it finished the misses said on IMDB it has episodes for a Season 2, we pretty much gathered our thoughts were likely correct.

We were spot on about the timelines thing, so I guess we are confident this is a show we are "getting"

Only thing is, the showrunners have explicitly stated that the Ford we saw on stage was human. Not a host.

Mitch Connor · 15-12-2016 2:16pm

The handshake thing was mentioned with resepect to the very early hosts though, not the ones like Delores, for example. It was said in regards to the far more robotic looking one Ford was talking to in cold storage when Bernard/QA found him - and it was part of a litter of things that gave away those hosts as being hosts. They are far better designed now (and have been for a long time) with the timeline 30 years ago showing this - William not being able to tell if the woman was a host or human (if you can't tell does it matter?).

A ford host not being able to shake hands convincingly would be a deliberate design flaw rather than the limitation of technology the hand shake issue represented.

I understand and agree the shot lingered on that handshake but it doesn't tie in with what was actually said regarding the handshakes.

And the showrunners have said Ford's death was a real death.

....... · 15-12-2016 3:52pm

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Mitch Connor · 15-12-2016 4:00pm

....... wrote: »

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We know very little about the tech Ford used - it looked (to my eye) similar to the tech we see in the park, but on a smaller scale.

But the Ford who gave the speech moved and spoke like a normal person - which the originals did not (with the handshake being just one of the things mentioned). There was no movement nor verbal comparison between Ford and the hosts that had the interaction inadequacies.

Also, the implication of the Bernard plans that were found there would indicate (and make sense) that is where Bernard was built - and Bernard had none of the interaction inadequacies so why would Ford? It doesn't make sense - unless it was a deliberate design flaws Ford put specifically into his host.

My point being, overall, there is no reason to think a Ford host would have the handshake problem; it doesn't line up with what was said or what we saw.

....... · 15-12-2016 4:43pm

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Mitch Connor · 15-12-2016 10:13pm

....... wrote: »

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there could be something in the handshake - bluetooth communication - i don't know. It could be the handshake was off, because he is a host. Again, I don't know, none of us do.

My opinion on the handshake thing is simply that Ford's comments about the handshake problem earlier in the series were made with respect to a model of host that is outdated and no longer used in the park - a version used before Delores, the one who greeted William, Teddy (the hosts from the timeline 30/35 years ago). So if Ford created a version of himself in the present timeline, you would have to assume it would be with technology and techniques that were used to create all the other hosts that we have in the story (including Bernard who, I have to assume, was created in the same lab Ford was using to create the mystery body).

It could be the writers decide to ignore how they framed the handshake problem and assert in the new series that it is still an issue and the lingering handshake we saw was a nod towards Ford being a host.

I just don't think the information we have so far can be used to back up such a claim; it would be bad writing if that handshake does link directly back to the line Ford used earlier in the show.