Westworld (HBO/Sky Atlantic) [** Spoilers **]

Sad Professor

Thargor wrote: »

I assumed they were gathering data on the worlds rich and powerful for blackmail and influence purposes, not to make copies?

Charlotte specifically said it wasn't about blackmail. Initially it seemed to be about gathering data for marketing purposes. And I think it's possible that it has developed in the 30 years since then into predicting human behaviour in order to control them, possibly but not necessarily involving the creation of copies. This would explain the obsession with fidelity. But in this episode Ford said it was about immortality. Humans becoming hosts. That's certainly what James Delos thought it was anyway. But maybe he was misled by William and the whole thing was a scam from the beginning. But surely Ford would know that?

mloc123

Sad Professor wrote: »

Charlotte specifically said it wasn't about blackmail. Initially it seemed to be about gathering data for marketing purposes. And I think it's possible that it has developed in the 30 years since then into predicting human behaviour in order to control them, possibly but not necessarily involving the creation of copies. This would explain the obsession with fidelity. But in this episode Ford said it was about immortality. Humans becoming hosts. That's certainly what James Delos thought it was anyway. But maybe he was misled by William and the whole thing was a scam from the beginning. But surely Ford would know that?

My take on it was they were gathering all this data about what humans are *really* like in order to better recreate fake consciousness. This would explain how Delores can be so callous, it was learned from human behavior.

So Bernard is a hybrid host. He has consciousness and free will, doesn't just act out stories but isn't like Delos who was a clone.

Dempsey

So much potential missed...

ixoy

Sad Professor wrote: »

Surely everyone would jump at the opportunity to "upload" their consciousness to an immortal host.

I assume that the upload kills them. Delos was dying so he had nothing to lose but others wouldn't be in a rush to die to create a copy of themselves.
So option two allows you to model yourself and predicted responses - not as good, but you're still alive.

Turtwig

Are Charlotte and Ford considered reliable though? Ford flat out lied to Bernard about free will. Charlotte herself might not know the true purpose. Only think that she does or perhaps act like she does.

Sad Professor

ixoy wrote: »

I assume that the upload kills them. Delos was dying so he had nothing to lose but others wouldn't be in a rush to die to create a copy of themselves.
So option two allows you to model yourself and predicted responses - not as good, but you're still alive.

I don't think the process kills them because Delos said "I guess I didn't make it", suggesting his illness got him.

Tbh it probably involves a combination of the methods I suggested. Even if you could copy someone's mind, that wouldn't be enough to re-create them. You'd need data on their behaviour and on human cognition in general in order to ensure that it was successful, especially if, as in the case of James Delos, the initial tests were a failure. In large part the fidelity tests (based on data from the park) are probably about trying to figure out why it's not working.

So the secret collection of DNA and guest behaviour in the park might not be about re-creating those individual guests but just getting data on humans in general so that they can better understand how to successfully recreate a specific person.

Sad Professor

Turtwig wrote: »

Are Charlotte and Ford considered reliable though? Ford flat out lied to Bernard about free will. Charlotte herself might not know the true purpose. Only think that she does or perhaps act like she does.

I think Charlotte definitely knows. Look at how she reacts to Dolores in this episode. However, there is a theory that she is secretly working for a third party, not Delos, who she is trying to steal information for. This would mean that the mercenary-type guys in this episode are not associated with Strand and his people who arrive later. I think there might be something to this.

jcsoulinger

mloc123 wrote: »

Sad Professor wrote: »

Charlotte specifically said it wasn't about blackmail. Initially it seemed to be about gathering data for marketing purposes. And I think it's possible that it has developed in the 30 years since then into predicting human behaviour in order to control them, possibly but not necessarily involving the creation of copies. This would explain the obsession with fidelity. But in this episode Ford said it was about immortality. Humans becoming hosts. That's certainly what James Delos thought it was anyway. But maybe he was misled by William and the whole thing was a scam from the beginning. But surely Ford would know that?

My take on it was they were gathering all this data about what humans are *really* like in order to better recreate fake consciousness. This would explain how Delores can be so callous, it was learned from human behavior.

So Bernard is a hybrid host. He has consciousness and free will, doesn't just act out stories but isn't like Delos who was a clone.

Bernard is a copy of Arnold, from Delores and Ford's memories his consciousness was never backed up but even if it had been it wouldn't have been able to function in the body of a host. Bernard was always being controlled by Ford so didn't have free will, he just believed he was human like all the other hosts.

I take it the aim of Delos was to eventually be able to offer the very rich people who visit west world immortality, for a small fortune obviously.

Well I just don't know how I feel about that episode at all at all. I have to go read loads of other opinions before I can form my own. :pac:

brevity

Yea...a lot to unpack. Hopkins is such an effortless actor and it's great that he is back. It amazing how many lives TMIB has...

Not sure what will happen to the Maeve storyline. Didn't one of the Native American guys say she needed to be on their path? maybe she goes after her daughter again...

Good episode tho...

RobbingBandit

Full Hannibal Lecter mode so manipulative so charming so in control no one is like Anthony Hopkins he is brilliant in everything he does. Pouting robo Teddy is boring me the whole quest of Delores to give the hosts free will then she goes and takes it away from Teddy he was better with compassion Marsden is a great actor but he needs his charm back.

Penn

Sad Professor wrote: »

One thing I don't understand yet: there seems to be two ways of re-creating humans as hosts. 1) taking a copy of their brain a la James Delos, and 2) creating a imitation based other people's (mainly hosts) memories of that person a la Arnold. The way Ford explained it, it seemed like the park was mainly about doing it the second way, by gathering data on guests without their knowledge. However, I don't really understand why that's necessary. Surely everyone would jump at the opportunity to "upload" their consciousness to an immortal host. Even if that doesn't work or is a scam, why the need to gather the data secretly?

My only thought is that the first method is only for the elite while the second is about controlling everyone else (by either replacing them or developing an intimate understanding of them), but if so Ford doesn't seem interested in the distinction.

My theory is that it comes back to what Ford told Bernard about how the guests are their true selves in Westworld. I think this means that the reason Delos' attempts to become a host kept failing, because ultimately they couldn't create a digital imitation of him because you can only create that based on other people's impressions and memories of them, but you can never really get inside their mind. But in Westworld, people show their true selves because they don't think they're bound by society's rules, having to act a certain way around certain people etc. It's a way to remove all their reservations and let them be free. Then you see who they really are, and that's what you can create a proper digital imitation of.

Either way, I loved that episode. The stories are really starting to come together and move into the final few episodes. It did get kinda laughable that William was shot about 4 times and is still alive (how many times has he been shot in the arm over what must be the course of about 2 weeks?). But that was my only complaint about the episode. Hopkins was as good as ever and Bernard's story has now taken a great turn.

brevity

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Full Hannibal Lecter mode so manipulative so charming so in control no one is like Anthony Hopkins he is brilliant in everything he does. Pouting robo Teddy is boring me the whole quest of Delores to give the hosts free will then she goes and takes it away from Teddy he was better with compassion Marsden is a great actor but he needs his charm back.

I do hope there is a bit of a change in Teddy. A good comment by Maeve to Delores about what she did to him seemed to rattle her briefly.

Although, It was good to see Teddy win the scrap with the "angry grunt man."

Just noticed that Delores and Delos are similar names....oooooh

I can't do this anymore. I'm out until the season is over. I'll probably binge it if I'm bothered

errlloyd

I love it, but I do wish it just came out on block.

It feels weird waiting for a twist I know is coming, and I know is being intentionally obscured from me. If I was watching through in one block I wouldn't break the momentum for long enough to reflect on that.

blackwave

errlloyd wrote: »

I love it, but I do wish it just came out on block.

It feels weird waiting for a twist I know is coming, and I know is being intentionally obscured from me. If I was watching through in one block I wouldn't break the momentum for long enough to reflect on that.

Yeah I am the same, a friend is starting to watch it and I told him to wait till season two is finished as it will make more sense to binge it all in the one go!

brevity

That's cheating!

Taylor365

Effortless! It'll be a sad day when we live in a world without Hopkins. (Maybe we won't.... )

All the holes in MIB suggest he's a host/hybrid of some sort.

There was a scene in a previous episode with a naked teddy at the top of a pile of bodies, so i'm expecting them to hit a wall soon.

razorblunt

I'd imagine Mouthy McEnglishman will sort Maeve out and help her get to her daughter.

I definitely think the SWAT type team aren't official and were planning to get in and out with data, the line "where the hell is that?" shows they're not familiar with the layout. Might be a leap though.

The scene of the merc/soldier trying to pull your one though was a bit too much.

corwill

razorblunt wrote: »

The scene of the merc/soldier trying to pull your one though was a bit too much.

Utterly daft, however horny a fan of Talulah Riley he was, he'd just seen up close how lethal the hosts are.

They're bending over backwards this season to make Delos operatives as dislikeable as possible as antagonists, because there's such a sympathy deficit for the protagonists. So we end up with this couple of cartoonish mercs.

Effects

biggebruv wrote: »

The old guy in the apartment doing the same thing reminds me of season 2 of lost with the guy in the hatch NOT GOOD !!! lol

Perhaps you didn't understand the relevance if who he is or what was going on?

Effects

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

Entertainment, coherent story lines and time lines. Interesting characters you can relate to. Dialogue you are enthralled by.

Isn't there already a forum for Grey's Anatomy?

johnpatrick81

Effects wrote: »

Isn't there already a forum for Grey's Anatomy?

Effects

Taylor365 wrote: »

All the holes in MIB suggest he's a host/hybrid of some sort.

He probably has the futuristic med kit he picked up in a previous episode.

Effects

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

johnpatrick81

Sad Professor

corwill wrote: »

Utterly daft, however horny a fan of Talulah Riley he was, he'd just seen up close how lethal the hosts are.

They're bending over backwards this season to make Delos operatives as dislikeable as possible as antagonists, because there's such a sympathy deficit for the protagonists. So we end up with this couple of cartoonish mercs.

I read a great theory on Reddit that suggested that the bodies of some hosts, such as Angela, may be designed to exude supernormal levels of pheromones, explaining how she was able to seduce the mercenary guy so easily. Fanwankery to explain that character's inexplicable stupidity? Maybe but one that makes a lot of sense. If you can create bodies (and minds) that replicate and improve on humans, then you would surely have control over its chemical secretions as well.

That said, they definitely need to come up with some better villains next season. I don't really have a problem with the hosts being faster draws etc than the humans, but I do have a problem with the humans consistently underestimating them, especially after watching them wipe out half their men.

Turtwig

That pheromone theory falls apart when you consider that the merc guy didn't just shoot her from range. He was cold blooded until the writers decided to give the host enough plot armour so she'd have time to seduce him.

Also those Mercs guys are just incompetent in general. Beggars belief that an organisation like Delos or a rival competitor would have them on payroll.

Sad Professor

Turtwig wrote: »

That pheromone theory falls apart when you consider that the merc guy didn't just shoot her from range. He was cold blooded until the writers decided to give the host enough plot armour so she'd have time to seduce him.

Earlier in the episode, the moustache guy can be heard over the radio telling his men to stop the hosts before they reach the Cradle as any gunfire in there will send the whole place "up in flames". Presumedly the backups were stored in some highly flammable coolant, hence the massive explosion. Should he have anticipated that she might want to destroy it and taken the risk and put a bullet in her? Perhaps, but that doesn't bother me. Nobody expected that they would want to destroy them. See Charlotte's surprise when Dolores reveals her intention. They assumed they were going there to save the backups. I guess to humans hellbent on immortality, the idea that the hosts might want to be mortal would seem crazy.

Also those Mercs guys are just incompetent in general. Beggars belief that an organisation like Delos or a rival competitor would have them on payroll.

I agree, though it's not clear that they are Delos. They seem different from Strand and his guys who are trying to regain control of the park and secure essential personnel. In this episode Strand accuses Bernard and Stubbs of trying to steal the data in order to sell it to the highest bidder. It's possible that Charlotte is secretly working for a third party.

errlloyd

Sad Professor wrote: »

It's possible that Charlotte is secretly working for a third party.

I love this theory. I think it's probably correct too.