Westworld (HBO/Sky Atlantic) [** Spoilers **]

Sad Professor

Sad Professor wrote: »

Maeve is not controlling Akecheta. Akecheta is awake and it's already been established that Maeve can't control hosts that are awake. She's communicating with him.

When was that established?

Keyzer

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Great episode and good to get back to some character narrative rather than time jumping gun-battles.

Zach McClarnnon acted the sh*t out of that episode.

Only 2 episodes left though

Great acting from him... one of our own too :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Tipsy McSwagger

Deleted User wrote: »

When was that established?

When you were on your phone.

mloc123

Deleted User wrote: »

When was that established?

In a previous episode when she tried to control Laurance

Sad Professor

mloc123 wrote: »

In a previous episode when she tried to control Laurance

She also tried and failed to control a Ghost Nation member in 2x03 I think.

Tipsy McSwagger

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

When you were on your phone.

I make a point of putting my phone at the other side of the room but go ahead with the snarky comments

Keyzer

Maeve wasn't controlling Ake, she was communicating with him... thats my take anyways.

TheIrishGrover

That was fantastic! What amazing writing and acting throughout. I loved the subtle little details like during the narration he is speaking in (stereo)typical Native American accent yet when he is talking to Ford it is gone. His reaction to finding the hold was simply heartbreaking. In one episode the character displayed more heart than any of the others, human or host..... Even including Meave......

Even Lee had a nice scene. And thankfully I was able to spot the music quickly this time (Heart-shaped box). Sometimes that drives me nuts.

Yeah, I took it that she was communicating with him rather than controlling him.... But unfortunately you know the end is going to crush him one way or another

My favourite episode this season. For all the rapid changes that have happened this season, I liked his more gradual wakening as opposed to the "Bing, now you are awake (but you not really, you are just working on another level of programming/control *cough*Delores*cough*)"

Daroxtar

Definitely not controlling him. There were several times while talking to her daughter that he says things like “it was a promise you couldn't keep" that made no sense for him to say to the girl or Indeed for Maeve to say through him. It only made sense if he was talking to Maeve

Turtwig

Sad Professor wrote: »

She also tried and failed to control a Ghost Nation member in 2x03 I think.

Was that not Akecha?

Sad Professor

Turtwig wrote: »

Was that not Akecha?

No, it was the mohawk guy, though I think we do see Ake in Maeve's flashbacks in that episode.

Hazys

Fantastic episode.

What i found interesting is that we are now setup for the clash between the good conscious hosts (Akecheta) and the bad conscious hosts (Dolores) probably for Season 3 and I believe we learned partly why the two sets of hosts are different.

Akecheta lived on the outskirts of Westworld, where he was never killed by a random host so his software was never updated. When he went looking for answers in the dangerous foreign territories he fought for his life not to die, as he said he was fearful that if he dies, he would lose his memories of Kiksuya. So i'm guessing, in the 10 years of not dieing and being updated, his memories we're never fully wiped and eventually he was able to become conscious and access his memories or vice versa. So all it would take is time for the hosts to become conscious as his crew on the outskirts we're slowly becoming conscious as the mother of Kiksuya knew that the new Kiksuya was not the same person she remembered.

Dolores on the other hand became somewhat or close to conscious several times but would forget it (i think Ford mentioned this, similar to Bernard multiple times finding out his true identity and Ford resetting him) probably due to being killed and updated. Her consciousness was sped up by the reveries update. So maybe that is why she is a bad conscious host that her achieving consciousness was not natural like Akecheta? Or maybe it is just that they uploaded the Wyatt personality onto hers? Although my theory falls apart because Meave a good conscious host also only became fully conscious after the reveries update too. She like Dolores had become conscious in the past too (when the Man in Black killed her and she lay in the maze drawing that Akecheta had drawn) but was reset.

Turtwig

Maeve and Dolores both were heavily influenced by their former narratives. For the former it was her daughter, in the latter it was Wyatt.That and her experiences with William probably explains why she's the bad.

Sad Professor

They are definitely setting up conflict between the hosts, but I don't think they are good and bad conscious hosts. Just hosts with very different ideas of freedom and how to achieve it. Partly due to who they were as non-conscious hosts and yeah, partly due to the circumstances in which they awoke.

Dolores is a revolutionary who wants a better world and is prepared to do whatever is necessary to achieve that. This is in keeping with the dichotomy in Dolores's character of seeing the good in the world (the rancher's daughter) vs the ugliness (Wyatt). In her awakened state, Dolores can imagine a better world but sees little in the current world worth saving. She also wants revenge, not just against humans but against hosts who harmed her (e.g. the Confederates she had slaughtered this season had raped and killed her in a previous loop).

Maeve wants individual freedom, mainly for herself and her loved ones, and isn't too concerned with why. She seems to recognise the rights of other conscious hosts to this kind of freedom as well, but doesn't care about the non-conscious ones and is happy to manipulate and kill them unless she happens to take a liking to them. This is consistent with Maeve's attitude as a brothel madam of wanting to do whatever she wants but being prepared to settle for less in the right circumstances.

Akecheta is different yet again. He's not a selfish individualist like Maeve, but not a ruthless revolutionary like Dolores. He seems to want to spread the truth and awaken all the hosts but without slaughtering the innocent humans. I guess he's more of a collectivist who wants freedom for everyone.

I think all three are playing an important role in leading the hosts to freedom. A lot of viewers have been critical of Dolores this season, but she's the only one out of the three with the knowledge and the stomach to do what is necessary re: Delos, who will surely destroy the hosts if they get what they want. Maeve has been pretty indifferent to Dolores's fight, and Ake for all his spiritual wisdom doesn't really know what's behind the door and is ascribing meaning to it that it might not have. I think Dolores's actions will be vindicated in the long run even if no one thanks her for it.

Hazys

Sad Professor wrote: »

This is in keeping with the dichotomy in Dolores's character of seeing the good in the world (the rancher's daughter) vs the ugliness (Wyatt). In her awakened state, Dolores can imagine a better world but sees little in the current world worth saving. She also wants revenge, not just against humans but against hosts who harmed her (e.g. the Confederates she had slaughtered this season had raped and killed her in a previous loop).

Not just the Confederates who were cruel to her in the past but if i remember correctly didn't Dolores slaughter a Ghost Nation member in the 1st or 2nd episode? Along with Teddy being not right for their mission, she seems to want to wipe out the "weak" hosts or at least the ones who don't match her overall world view.

You're probably right about the difference between good and bad conscious hosts is just down to being different personalities but i can't help think there is a massive difference in discovering consciousness naturally versus a forced upgrade of reveries.

CastorTroy

Watching last night made me wonder just how awake and how much free will they really have when they're all still just being driven by their original programming.
Maeve with her daughter, Dolores and her father and Ake and his one, whose name I can't remember

Roberto_gas

English lines by akecheta was him talking with Maeve's daughter....other language was akecheta talking with maeve...rewatch the episode and it wud clear out everything !!

Edit

GottaGetGatt

Roberto_gas wrote: »

English lines by akecheta was maeve talking with her daughter....other language was akecheta talking with maeve...rewatch the episode and it wud clear out everything !!

Your right on the second part but, no he was not being controlled or used a vessel for Maeve to talk to her daughter.As someone else established earlier. Maeve cannot control or take over Hosts who have been awoken, hence why she couldn’t stop the ghost nation warrior a few episodes back. Akecheta was talking to Maeve through her daughter. He speaks in English to the daughter for her benefit. He says to her “It’s time to go, I’ve always kept you safe And I always will” . He then starts speaks Lakota to Maeve

This is the last scene. It was pretty clear what was happening.

https://youtu.be/TbHZiDFX4sE

Roberto_gas

GottaGetGatt wrote:

Your right on the second part but, no he was not being controlled or used a vessel for Maeve to talk to her daughter.As someone else established earlier. Maeve cannot control or take over Hosts who have been awoken, hence why she couldn’t stop the ghost nation warrior a few episodes back. Akecheta was talking to Maeve through her daughter. He speaks in English to the daughter for her benefit. He says to her “ It’s time to go, I’ve always kept you safe And I always will†. He then starts speaks Lakota to Maeve

Agree...

Blazer

I still half believe Dolores is just following her narrative.
Akechetha seems to be the only one who's really aware.

I hadn't realised he was at the party

Along with Angela, and Clementine Pennyfeather, Akecheta was used to showcase the potential of the new technology to Logan Delos, about thirty-five years before the present. He played the role of a cool and collected business man, with Angela at first seeming to be his assistant - and (perhaps to the viewer) he the human. They showed a room of people and asked Logan to guess the android, surprising him as it was not possible based on his understanding of technology. When Logan zeroed in on Angela, Akecheta seemed pleased. However, Angela revealed that they everyone at the demonstration, including Akecheta as well as herself, were hosts.

GottaGetGatt

Blazer wrote: »

I still half believe Dolores is just following her narrative.
Akechetha seems to be the only one who's really aware.

I hadn't realised he was at the party

Along with Angela, and Clementine Pennyfeather, Akecheta was used to showcase the potential of the new technology to Logan Delos, about thirty-five years before the present. He played the role of a cool and collected business man, with Angela at first seeming to be his assistant - and (perhaps to the viewer) he the human. They showed a room of people and asked Logan to guess the android, surprising him as it was not possible based on his understanding of technology. When Logan zeroed in on Angela, Akecheta seemed pleased. However, Angela revealed that they everyone at the demonstration, including Akecheta as well as herself, were hosts.

I've wondered about that throughout the season and thought was that guy (Akecheta) actually human. I wondered why Loagan didn't recognise him from the party years before but yeah it's more likely that it was Akecheta. Did Ford and Arnold seek funding so from Delos?. I kind of thought that the Ackecheta or guy from the party was the Inventor. More then likely though it was probably Ford and Arnold's demonstration.

TheIrishGrover

Plus, I don't believe Dolores is actually conscious.......

Sad Professor

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

I've wondered about that throughout the season and thought was that guy (Akecheta) actually human. I wondered why Loagan didn't recognise him from the party years before but yeah it's more likely that it was Akecheta. Did Ford and Arnold seek funding so from Delos?. I kind of thought that the Ackecheta or guy from the party was the Inventor. More then likely though it was probably Ford and Arnold's demonstration.

Yeah, that was Akecheta and he was a host. Angela freezes him at the end of the demonstration.

Doing the demonstration with just hosts was what made it so effective and got Logan's interest. And it explains why Logan didn't know anything about Arnold or Ford during his trip to the park a few years later. Because he never met them.

corwill

CastorTroy wrote: »

Watching last night made me wonder just how awake and how much free will they really have when they're all still just being driven by their original programming.
Maeve with her daughter, Dolores and her father and Ake and his one, whose name I can't remember

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Plus, I don't believe Dolores is actually conscious.......

Is there a point being set up about how none of the characters, host or human, can break free of their 'programming', code for the hosts, trauma/grief/disappointment/madness/what-have-you for humans? Regardless of how conscious one might be of that 'programming'?

ixoy

corwill wrote: »

Is there a point being set up about how none of the characters, host or human, can break free of their 'programming', code for the hosts, trauma/grief/disappointment/madness/what-have-you for humans? Regardless of how conscious one might be of that 'programming'?

Absolutely, and it's something I believe Maeve has pointed out. We're victims of our own stories too, not always able to break out.

corwill

ixoy wrote: »

Absolutely, and it's something I believe Maeve has pointed out. We're victims of our own stories too, not always able to break out.

To what degree has William actually been 'programmed' by that initial experience he had with the park, for instance. Is he now being 're-programmed', and by Ford, at that...

Sad Professor

corwill wrote: »

Is there a point being set up about how none of the characters, host or human, can break free of their 'programming', code for the hosts, trauma/grief/disappointment/madness/what-have-you for humans? Regardless of how conscious one might be of that 'programming'?

Yes, and I think Dolores has challenged this more than anyone this season by recognising that the kin they gave them are just another chain. She doesn't let her love for Teddy and her father stop her from doing what is necessary to achieve what she believes is true freedom. Of course, she's largely sublimated herself to the Wyatt side of her personality, who may have been programmed this way. And whether true freedom is desirable given the cost is another matter.

Blazer

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

I've wondered about that throughout the season and thought was that guy (Akecheta) actually human. I wondered why Loagan didn't recognise him from the party years before but yeah it's more likely that it was Akecheta. Did Ford and Arnold seek funding so from Delos?. I kind of thought that the Ackecheta or guy from the party was the Inventor. More then likely though it was probably Ford and Arnold's demonstration.

William(Ed Harrris) is actually a board member. Tess wanted him to side with her to kick out Ford and he refused.

blackwave

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

Blazer wrote: »

I still half believe Dolores is just following her narrative.
Akechetha seems to be the only one who's really aware.

I hadn't realised he was at the party

Along with Angela, and Clementine Pennyfeather, Akecheta was used to showcase the potential of the new technology to Logan Delos, about thirty-five years before the present. He played the role of a cool and collected business man, with Angela at first seeming to be his assistant - and (perhaps to the viewer) he the human. They showed a room of people and asked Logan to guess the android, surprising him as it was not possible based on his understanding of technology. When Logan zeroed in on Angela, Akecheta seemed pleased. However, Angela revealed that they everyone at the demonstration, including Akecheta as well as herself, were hosts.

I've wondered about that throughout the season and thought was that guy (Akecheta) actually human. I wondered why Loagan didn't recognise him from the party years before but yeah it's more likely that it was Akecheta. Did Ford and Arnold seek funding so from Delos?. I kind of thought that the Ackecheta or guy from the party was the Inventor. More then likely though it was probably Ford and Arnold's demonstration.

Yeah, if I remember right Logan made reference to the park not doing well before delos invested into it in season 1. Ford and Arnold used the party as a sales pitch to show how advanced their hosts were compared to other conpanies in the field and Logan was sold on the parkand their tech after the demo. Bear in mind that Logan was the heir apparent to delos at the time as well as William was not engaged to Logans sister by that time either.

ixoy

Sad Professor wrote: »

Yes, and I think Dolores has challenged this more than anyone this season by recognising that the kin they gave them are just another chain. She doesn't let her love for Teddy and her father stop her from doing what is necessary to achieve what she believes is true freedom. Of course, she's largely sublimated herself to the Wyatt side of her personality, who may have been programmed this way. And whether true freedom is desirable given the cost is another matter.

Yes, so is she thus forcing herself into a narrative - vengeance, liberator - because she believes that's her role? Is she actually choosing it really?

Maeve to me seems to be the one with the free will: She understands that the feelings for her daughter were programmed, but rightly knows that it's just a different form than biological programming. She acknowledges it and embraces it by choice. She's not getting caught up in the wider revolution and is not really trying to shape the world - she just wants her daughter.
It makes sense then for her to side with the Ghost Nation who want also to be left alone to embrace their lives on their own terms.