Another child dies after faling from an apartment window

Pat Mustard

I'm no engineer or architect, but it seems as though locks with removable keys on upper windows are against building (fire) regs. See Technical Guidance Document B. I think that this should be the relevant section (p.57).

e) The opening section of the window should besecured by means of fastenings which are readily
openable from the inside and should be fitted
with safety restrictors. Safety restrictors can be
either an integral part of the window operating
gear or separate items of hardware which can be
fitted to a window at the time of manufacture or
at installation. Restrictors should operate so that
they limit the initial movement of an opening
section to not more than 100 mm. Lockable
handles or restrictors, which can only be
released by removable keys or other tools,
should not be fitted to window opening sections

Therefore, I think that the government has a lot of responsibility for the current situation, where children can open upstairs windows all too easily. The government should have gone further to specify that childproof locks with non-removable keys should be fitted to upstairs windows. That has not been done.

If it is possible to put childproof lids on bottles of drain cleaner, it should be possible to put childproof locks on upstairs windows.

The government can still make that change to the building regs.

pwurple

ShaShaBear wrote: »

But your child would be pretty safe in her cot, yeah?

I'm not having an issue believing you can sleep longer than your child. I'm having trouble believing you could sleep through your child crawling out of their room, into their brother's room, moving furniture, climbing up on the furniture, opening a window, climbing out of the window and falling out of the window - all without waking a parent or the brother.

Children can suddenly get out of their cots, having not been able to do so the day before. Mving a chair on carpet is completely silent. And the window was possibly already open. It has been warm at night.

I have a toddler. They have no sense of danger and will dart out in all directions with no warning. There is a very good reason accidental death rates are very high in this age group, they are difficult to keep safe.

This poor family is suffering enough without being badmouthed on the internet.

GarIT

ted1 wrote: »

you obviousily don't have kids.
toddlers are very active,when my girls were 18 months they were running around chatting away. there about 15 months apart. we live in semi d adn they would often be in a different room, or if the back door is open they may be out the back while we are in the kitchen. on the odd occasion if the stair gate is left open, they may sneak off to their bedroom to pay with other toys.

expecting them to be in the saem room 24/7 is very niave and not at all practical.

You are right that I don't have kids, I do have some experience with my much younger brother, over 10 years younger but not much. I don't see how it can't be done, IMO if you have kids you have signed every minute of your life away to looking after them, anything less is neglect. If they try to get away lock doors, another poster said about letting them watch tv, if you are going to do that put them in a chair.

jmayo wrote: »

Can I ask if you have or had children ?
And I don't care if the question is seen as being a stock question to ask when debating childcare.
If someone is going to make such sure fire comments on how to raise kids then I think they should have some experience in the matter.
Otherwise it is like listening to marriage guidance advise from a catholic priest.

If you have had children and have been able to keep them in sight 24/7 and never leave them in a room alone, then I raise my hat to you and indeed I think every parent in the world would do the same.
Or maybe you have a nanny to look after such concerns ?



Meanwhile in the real world parents try and live.:rolleyes:
Yeah I find toddlers love being in the bathroom whilst we go to the toilet.
And shure can't they have a great time playing with the toilet brush.



There has been an awful lot of speculation going around here and jumping to some awful conclusions.
We have had the parents being blamed, and not in a very nice way, by some around here.
It is disgraceful.
They have enough to go through at the moment.

I think saying that the child was unsupervised is reasonable to assume though because either a) a parent watched the child go out the window and let it happen or b) the child was unsupervised. Maybe the parents were asleep and I do believe that it may not have occurred out of negligence but as a freak accident.

Parents still have no right to freedom or anything like that. At most a parent might need to leave the child to go to the toilet or to wash and putting the child in a car seat or high chair or buggy would take away a lot of risk there. Other than that they should be supervised at all times, its not hard to close/lock doors and keep the kids around you.

GarIT

pwurple wrote: »

Children can suddenly get out of their cots, having not been able to do so the day before. Mving a chair on carpet is completely silent. And the window was possibly already open. It has been warm at night.

I have a toddler. They have no sense of danger and will dart out in all directions with no warning. There is a very good reason accidental death rates are very high in this age group, they are difficult to keep safe.

This poor family is suffering enough without being badmouthed on the internet.

IMO a good cot has 6 sides and can't be gotten out of. If you look on youtube for kids put themselves to bed you will see that they have sort of a mosquito net over the top of the cot and that seems to work.

However if the child did get out of it's cot while the parents were asleep it was just a very unfortunate accident.

ted1

GarIT wrote: »

You are right that I don't have kids, I do have some experience with my much younger brother, over 10 years younger but not much. I

As I said you are extremely niave, once kids get mobile you can not keep a eye on them 24 7. By the time I write the first sentence my kids have left the room. Close your eyes for a second and their gone.
You have no idea what kids especially toddlers are like. Keeping them trapped on a room dies them no favours and impairs there development

ted1

Also the mozzie net things come with their own hazards. If put up wrong the child can pull them down and smoother themselves. You need a solid o hook, a lot of people use an open c hook which allows the knot to slip out if pulled. And they are decorative and aren't used to imprison the child

riclad

IF you are living in apartment its possible to buy a window lock,,that allows the window to open,
A little bit to allow air in,
but cannot be opened by a child.
its a parents reponsibility to childproof an apartment ,so its safe for thier kids to live in.
or check the windows before they move in.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=60571031

These can be fitted to existing windows .,
its probable not all apartments may not be designed to be safe for young kids,
And its complicated cos buildings have to be designed for easy exit in case of fire .

i,m not an expert ,
some of these devices may not be legal to fit in irish windows .

i DON,T think its reasonable to expect or presume,all buildings to be safe for kids .

my sister had a stairs gate, and locks on presses
when the kids were young.

Boombastic

GarIT wrote: »

IMO a good cot has 6 sides and can't be gotten out of. If you look on youtube for kids put themselves to bed you will see that they have sort of a mosquito net over the top of the cot and that seems to work.

However if the child did get out of it's cot while the parents were asleep it was just a very unfortunate accident.

6 sides Is it a cage?


Child proof locks should be allowed on Upper floors

ceadaoin.

This is a terrible thing to happen to this family and I'm sure they are blaming themselves. In reality it is impossible to have a toddler in your sight every minute that they are awake. I wouldn't allow my 21 month old upstairs if I am downstairs and vice versa, but she would often be in the sitting room playing while I am cooking dinner in the kitchen. The rooms are joined by an archway so I can hear her and I pop my head in every couple of minutes to check on her even though she usually runs in and out to see me anyway. Likewise when I shower in the en suite she plays in the bedroom.

Outside, I wouldn't take my eyes off her for a second.

It only takes a few minutes for something like this to happen. That is why it's so important to baby proof everything to at least minimise the risk. Locks on cupboards, covers on plug sockets, stair gates etc. and locks on accessible windows. it's common sense and shouldnt need legislation to make parents comply.

percy212

Some cities require window guards to be installed in apartment buildings. In fact the tenant has to opt out of having them installed - http://www.nyc.gov/html/hpd/html/owners/window-guards.shtml

pwurple

GarIT wrote: »

IMO a good cot has 6 sides and can't be gotten out of. If you look on youtube for kids put themselves to bed you will see that they have sort of a mosquito net over the top of the cot and that seems to work.

However if the child did get out of it's cot while the parents were asleep it was just a very unfortunate accident.

What on earth? Do you put your own children in this kind of cage?

Nets can strangle and smother, let alone scaring the heck out of the child by locking them into a box.

Sligo1

GarIT wrote: »

IMO a good cot has 6 sides and can't be gotten out of. If you look on youtube for kids put themselves to bed you will see that they have sort of a mosquito net over the top of the cot and that seems to work.

A cot with 6 sides??? What???

Not a hope in hell I'd put one of this nets up on our cot!..... Unless maybe there were Mosquitos around...... That's why they are call mosquito nets! Not 'keep your child in their cot nets'.

jmayo

GarIT wrote: »

You are right that I don't have kids, I do have some experience with my much younger brother, over 10 years younger but not much.

Thought as much. :rolleyes:

GarIT wrote: »

I don't see how it can't be done, IMO if you have kids you have signed every minute of your life away to looking after them, anything less is neglect.
If they try to get away lock doors, another poster said about letting them watch tv, if you are going to do that put them in a chair.

Yeah good parents always tie their children in chairs to watch TV.

And if you don't spend every minute of your time looking after them and watching them you are negligent.

GarIT wrote: »

Parents still have no right to freedom or anything like that. At most a parent might need to leave the child to go to the toilet or to wash and putting the child in a car seat or high chair or buggy would take away a lot of risk there. Other than that they should be supervised at all times, its not hard to close/lock doors and keep the kids around you.

You reckon?

GarIT wrote: »

IMO a good cot has 6 sides and can't be gotten out of. If you look on youtube for kids put themselves to bed you will see that they have sort of a mosquito net over the top of the cot and that seems to work.

Perhaps you can use one of those cages they use in animal testing laboratories or in veterinary clinics.

I would love to chat to you some day after you have kids.
Until then stop giving advice and instructions on childcare because frankly IMHO you are embarassing yourself.

GarIT wrote: »

However if the child did get out of it's cot while the parents were asleep it was just a very unfortunate accident.

That appears to be a plausible scenario in this case but it is speculation at the moment.

pwurple wrote: »

What on earth? Do you put your own children in this kind of cage?

Nets can strangle and smother, let alone scaring the heck out of the child by locking them into a box.

Ehh the poster hasn't any kids or any real experience dealing with kids or toddlers and it shows.

As for living in apartments I think people with small children will have to reapraise their childproofing and make sure their are childproof windows and doors.

GarIT

What's wrong with locking kids in when they are old enough to climb out is it not better than the alternative and it will hardly do them any harm.

pwurple

GarIT wrote: »

What's wrong with locking kids in when they are old enough to climb out is it not better than the alternative and it will hardly do them any harm.

It's cruelty for a start. As soon as they can stand up they do so, and will hurt themselves on whatever lid you have locked on there. Let alone the amount of traumatised screaming will go on if you try it. Children hate feeling trapped, just like the rest of us do.

What age do you propose that your child cages get unlocked? Do they get chained to the bed then instead perhaps?

Pawwed Rig

Are we seriously debating whether it is ok to lock children in cages?

GarIT

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Are we seriously debating whether it is ok to lock children in cages?

Its not a cage, search YouTube for kids puts themselves to bed and you'll see what im talking about.

And to reply to the other poster maybe stop it at around 4 or 5, as soon as they are smart enough to realise danger.

jmayo

GarIT wrote: »

What's wrong with locking kids in when they are old enough to climb out is it not better than the alternative and it will hardly do them any harm.

GarIT's new safety cot range is coming to a Mothercare near you very soon.




And this one appears to have been hooked onto houses or apartment buildings.

jmayo

GarIT wrote: »

Its not a cage, search YouTube for kids puts themselves to bed and you'll see what im talking about.

And to reply to the other poster maybe stop it at around 4 or 5, as soon as they are smart enough to realise danger.

Oh FFS will you ever just stop.
The more you debate this the more you look an eejit.

Children by 4 or 5 are out of cots since cots are usually not bloody big enough.
You might get a cot bed that would still be big enough for them, but the railings would not be high enough to be above their heads.

Thus if it had a lid/cover they would be hitting their heads when they would stand up or even possibly sit up.

Also the railings on cots can not be too high because it would it difficult to lift children into and out of the cot.
You would need multi adjustable levels in a cot for that to work and that doesn't exist.
You might get two or three levels in a cot bed but that would be it.
If a cot was built to your specifications it would like an old lion/tiger cage from a circus.

I don't know if you are male or feamle, but you are in for one major fooking surprise if you ever have kids.

I know I was hugely surprised with all the stuff when I had kids, but at least before that point I had the good sense not to tell parents how to rear their children.

Can we now close this thread, or move it to childcare, as it appears to be nothing to do with Accommodation & Property ?