Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

AmberGold

I always admired Henry Marsh and the work he does, he is truely a modern day hero. There is an excellent documentary on Netflix called "The English Surgeon", we'll worth watching.

However, having smacked my head off the road in a crash two years ago breaking my helmet I won't be taking his advice on this one.

Oryx

.ak wrote: »

EDIT: Still trying to find that link, but another interesting point the article made is the vast majority of head injuries to road users occur to people in cars. I'm talking like over 60%. That's an amazing stat. Why don't we wear helmets in cars? You are far more likely to suffer a serious head injury in your life in a car, either as a driver or passenger, then you ever will be on a bike. But we don't wear helmets in cars, because it isn't socially accepted. Yet in certain places it is frowned upon if cyclists do not wear helmets. Just something to think about...

There are more cars, ergo cars have more accidents. And you cant fall off a car*.

*unless youre travelling on the roof, in which case you deserve it.

Amirani

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Nail on the head. His comments are based on statistics. It's all correlation with very little causation considered by the looks of it.

I think it's you're just using a buzzword phrase here for the sake of it. His limited look at cases will be very much causal, how can it not be?

If you look at this in probabilistic terms, a good analogy might be the lottery. The probability of you winning the lottery (like the probability of you suffering an injury that a helmet would make a difference in) is very small. However, the probability of someone winning the lottery is very high (like the probability of someone benefitting from helmets is very high).

Therefore, it makes sense to promote helmets on a general level, they will save lives/prevent brain injuries. On an individual level though, it's very unlikely to be the case. The probability of a helmet ever saving your life is tiny.

Guy:Incognito

This

"that many of his patients who have been involved in bike accidents have been wearing helmets that were ‘too flimsy’ to be beneficial"

and this

"wearing helmets a waste of time"

are not the same thing.

Why isn't he wearing a helmet that's not "too flimsy"?
Are motorbike riders wasting their time too? If not why doesn't he wear a motorbike helmet while hes cycling?

Amirani

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why isn't he wearing a helmet that's not "too flimsy"?
Are motorbike riders wasting their time too? If not why doesn't he wear a motorbike helmet while hes cycling?

Motorbike riders are much more likely to be involved in a situation where they'd benefit from having a helmet on.

Wearing a motorbike helmet would drastically impair people's cycling ability, and likely cause far more accidents.

punisher5112

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Motorbike riders are much more likely to be involved in a situation where they'd benefit from having a helmet on.

Wearing a motorbike helmet would drastically impair people's cycling ability, and likely cause far more accidents.

Might actually make them take responsibillity and actually look where they are going;)

Guy:Incognito

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Motorbike riders are much more likely to be involved in a situation where they'd benefit from having a helmet on.

Wearing a motorbike helmet would drastically impair people's cycling ability, and likely cause far more accidents.

The bike itself might not be going as fast as a motorbike but it could well be hit by a car that is.

An open face motorbike helmet would work fine.

anto3473

Even if helmets don't provide much protection to the brain from really hard impacts they can save your face from road rash. You never want to skid down the road using your face and teeth as a brake.

Only ever had one serious accident where I was going way too fast down Stonybater (had just started commuting by bike, hadn't quite got the hang of stopping distance yet) and a pedestrian decided to walk out between parked cars and stand in the middle of the cycle lane like a complete fecking eejit while I rang my bell and shouted move and tried to slow down.

I had to brake very hard and I went over the handlebars breaking a few ribs - I was doing around 40km/h at the time.

Hands and knees hit the ground first and took most of the impact but I still hit my head a smack off the road and I slid for a bit - enough to take a chunk off the front of the helmet - I hardly felt it and I was able to cycle in the rest of the way to work.

(I lasted an about an hour until the adrenaline wore off, the pain in the ribs and road rash on the knees and hands kicked in with a vengance and I went to see a doctor)

I don't think the impact would have cracked my skull but without the helmet I would have certainly lost a chunk of face as opposed to a chunk of styrofoam and plastic, could have easily been a concussion too.

Cuts to the face and scalp don't heal very well because the skin around the skull is stretched fairly tight, the bleed quite a lot because of a huge blood supply, and they sure as hell hurt a lot because of all the nerves. Needless to say when teeth meet tarmac the results are not pretty either.

I never ride without a helmet now and cringe every time I see cyclists without them.

Either way I learned my lesson - I try not to be a complete moron on the road, and know that absolute gob****es, tree branches, car doors, random holes in the road and other obstacles are always a possibility. And that broken ribs really really suck!

That and wear a helmet, and viz gear and have a bell and proper lights (all of which I had). Anyone on the roads without these is pretty damn stupid IMO. Go to lidil or Mr Price. Dirt cheap.

Interestingly a very drunk gentleman was in the waiting room at the clinic I went to with a massive cut on his forehead, also a bike accident (a lamppost jumped out in front of him) and when I said helmets are only a tenner in argos he said "nah they look stupid"

The Mater emergency clinic in Smithfeild was very good, I was seen to straight away and was given some kick ass heavy duty drugs

Quigs Snr

Diego Simeone wrote: »

I think it's you're just using a buzzword phrase here for the sake of it. His limited look at cases will be very much causal, how can it not be?

If you look at this in probabilistic terms, a good analogy might be the lottery. The probability of you winning the lottery (like the probability of you suffering an injury that a helmet would make a difference in) is very small. However, the probability of someone winning the lottery is very high (like the probability of someone benefitting from helmets is very high).

Therefore, it makes sense to promote helmets on a general level, they will save lives/prevent brain injuries. On an individual level though, it's very unlikely to be the case. The probability of a helmet ever saving your life is tiny.

I don't disagree with you. A bike helmet very much fits into the better than nothing category. I don't think anyone would dispute that. But I have seen terrible, terrible things during my time on the bike. Some of which I am convinced would have been worse, maybe far worse with no helmet.

That being said I am under no illusion that when I am hammering a descent at nearly 90kph on the continent the helmet is very unlikely to do anything. rosary beads is likely to be as effective.

Where I do think the odds go up are at low speeds. Some of the worst injuries I have seen have been from stationary or almost stationary positions. I myself had a terrible fall once where a cleat snapped on a very steep 14% ascent, the momentary deceleration caused me to stall to a virtual standstill and go down sideways and hard on my head before I could get an arm up.. helmet split into 3 sections, very acutely bashed in, like I had hit something sharp (all a blur to me now). Concussion, brief loss of consciousness etc... Maybe it would have been the same result without the helmet on, although the very acute damage on the helmet suggests that at the very least it saved me from being split open and requiring a lot of stitches.

That being said, I don't think a helmet should be mandatory for anyone over 18 (although I enforce it in our club rides because we need to set an example for the young lads). If you are doing your own thing though you should be able to make your own choice. Kids though... I wouldn't let em on a tricycle without a helmet.

Lumen

anto3473 wrote: »

Even if helmets don't provide much protection to the brain from really hard impacts they can save your face from road rash. You never want to skid down the road using your face and teeth as a brake.

Road bicycle helmets do not protect your face from road rash, broken teeth, and other forms of facial disfiguration. Several boardsies can testify to this, with photographic evidence.

Amirani

I should clarify that people engaging in team or competitive cycling, where they'll be doing significant ascents and descents are probably more at risk of stationary or low speed falls - ones were helmets will probably have the biggest impact. Helmets shouldn't be a massive inconvenience here either, as they'll be wearing other cycling specific gear anyway.

I'd also extend this to children, inexperienced and off road cyclists, helmets are probably a good idea. They may be an inconvenience, but these are much higher risk groups.

I'd never argue that wearing helmets is a bad thing. The inconvenience they cause for a lot of cyclists though combined with they low probability of utilising one, on balance means they're not completely essential for me. I'd be completely against any moves to make them mandatory, except perhaps in the case of younger children.

anto3473

Lumen wrote: »

Road bicycle helmets do not protect your face from road rash, broken teeth, and other forms of facial disfiguration. Several boardsies can testify to this, with photographic evidence.

Maybe not teeth but my helmet defiantly saved my face from getting shredded in that accident. A lump of helmet around the size of my thumb came off and I amn't any uglier or stupider than I was before.

Lawdie

Sorted

http://whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/17/meet-the-inflatable-invisible-bike-helmet/

Chips Lovell

Threads merged

tomasrojo

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I wouldn't let em on a tricycle without a helmet.

I assume this is exaggeration? This topic elicits so much hand-wringing it can be hard to spot irony.

tomasrojo

The editorial co-authored by Ben Goldacre in the British Medical Journal (who is a research fellow in epidemiology as well as a journalist) has a succinct description of the state of evidence from the point of view of a statistician or epidemiologist.

The enduring popularity of helmets as a proposed major intervention for increased road safety may therefore lie not with their direct benefits—which seem too modest to capture compared with other strategies—but more with the cultural, psychological, and political aspects of popular debate around risk.

So Marsh might have a point. If you can't find a benefit in data derived from entire populations, it's entirely possible that the benefit is small, or even non-existent.

(I think both Goldacre and Marsh are referring to serious head injuries, rather than moderate or minor head injuries, where helmets might be more useful.)

eeeee

tomasrojo wrote: »

(I think both Goldacre and Marsh are referring to serious head injuries, rather than moderate or minor head injuries, where helmets might be more useful.)

And that's the key thing. I agree with all you have said, it is undoubtedly true, as is the quote you have.
But as you say they don't see the cases where the helmet does it's job, this is not recorded, and not quantifiable either. I mean re-creating the incident sans helmet to test the outcome is impossible in the real world.
I think that everyday, a helmet saves someone who falls off/is hit off their bike from much worse injuries. There isn't a bike helmet that I have seen that can protect against crush injuries, wheels, being pierced by objects or very heavy impact. Those injuries and incidents do not make up the majority of bike incidents, the overwhelming majority of which are relatively minor, and helmets have a very definite effect on that. I like to have something between my skull and the road/a car/whatever to take at least some of the shock out of it.

tomasrojo

I don't think that's quite right. If you manage to raise the proportion of cyclists wearing helmets, you should see a corresponding decline in head-injury rates (that is the proportion of cyclists presenting for treatment for head injury). You don't. That takes care of the "not seeing those who are saved" angle.

(Though those who suffer head injuries that they consider too trivial for treatment remain off-radar, I suppose, which might hide any benefit for minor and perhaps sometimes moderate head injuries.)

Beasty

A bit of anecdotal "evidence" from my own crash 3 months ago

Firstly though, as a lot of you already know this was in a race at high speed. Although I have no memory of the accident all the evidence points to me having been thrown over the bars while travelling at nearly 50kph (and it took less than 3 seconds for me, or more accurately my bike, to come to a halt, based on GPS data)

I have actually been trying to build a picture of what happened and an understanding of the injuries I sustained. In fact the deeper I look into it the luckier I feel.

Although I hit the deck at high speed, I am pretty sure it was my arms rather than helmet had more to do with avoiding further major injury. It's clear that they absorbed a lot of the impact (resulting in one broken wrist with the elbow on the other side also broken)

Still I suffered massive concussion. I was unconscious for around 30 mins and have lost memory from a few minutes before until over a week after the accident (despite posting merrily away on Boards through that week)

One thing I do understand better now is that helmets offer little protection from concussion, which is caused by the brain hitting the inside of the skull, and I am still awaiting an assessment of the possible long-term consequences of the brain damage I suffered. However I remain convinced that the helmet saved me from much worse (and possibly fatal) injury. It was protecting say a third of my head - although it was smashed up I suffered no breaks in any area that was protected by the helmet. The bits that were not did not fare so well - there remains some debate over the exact number, but it was probably 7 breaks in the cheek and jaw, plus another in the neck and one further down the spine (fortunately the two breaks in my spine were minor). On top of that I fractured 4 teeth.

So in summary, in the situation I found myself I have no doubt the helmet saved me from much worse injury. I have even less doubt that but for both arms giving way I would not be sat here in sunny California relaying my story. Indeed I could instead scaring some other regulars on the site (from a certain other sports forum;)) sh!tless, as I would take up any opportunity that may come along to haunt them ....:pac:

Iwannahurl

gadetra wrote: »

I have have had a fair few smacks off the ground with a helmet

gadetra wrote: »

I have been commuting around Dublin for 12 years now, before than I learned to ride a bike at about 3 or 4.

...

I don't see the relevance of that to my argument though?

...

I have extensive (well a good bit!) head smacking experience between horses and a bit on the bike since I was a child

...

I have had many concussions over my life

...

That said people should be free to make their own choices, and live with the consequences.

I've also been cycling since I was a child. My experience of "head-smacking" is nil, and I have never been concussed.

I think all the "head smacking" you describe is very relevant to your argument.

It seems you are very safety conscious, yet you admit to having had "many concussions".

Why do you suppose that is?

eeeee

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I've also been cycling since I was a child. My experience of "head-smacking" is nil, and I have never been concussed.

I think all the "head smacking" you describe is very relevant to your argument.

It seems you are very safety conscious, yet you admit to having had "many concussions".

Why do you suppose that is?

I am not sure what your point is? I have hit my head a good bit in my life owing to sports that I did. I am not cycling like a mad lady and falling off every 2 mins. If you commute around Dublin every day you are bound to have an incident at some point. I am not flying off my bike at every opportunity! It just happens that whenever I come off the bike (which is rare) my head gets the brunt of it. Same off horses.

I did most of my head smacking falling off horses, being kicked in the head (with hat on), coming off an animal at speed, jumping, on the flat etc. smacking off ditches, the ground etc. I rode breakers, backed horses and schooled problem animals so coming off was part of the deal. I didn't always wear a hat, and less still a body protector. My worst falls happened when both were on thank fcuk. It wasn't a regular occurrence, I never broke any bones, but my head got the brunt of it, you learn to fall when you ride, and my tuck and roll usually started with my head! (I never mastered curling my neck in. I liked to have a full view of the ground rushing up towards me! :rolleyes:) That is where most of my concussions came from. I always had a problem with migraines, I think they might be connected! I don't ride anymore (living in Dublin), and I wouldn't ride the kind of horses I did before as I don't bounce like I used to!

On the bike I was hit by a car from behind, 2 weeks without memory, hazy for a good while after. The second worst spill I took off the bike was last october, I dislocated my shoulder, (slid on a patch of oil on a roundabout) although my head took a good smack too I was wearing my helmet and my head was fine, not even a headache. I can anecdotally confirm my head was banging for a good month after the first spill, and not at all after the second. On falling off horses, it similarly hurt less with than without a hat on.

Most hospitals and doctors see the worse case scenarios, what it doesn't see are the multitudes of people who come off and are fine because the helmet saved them from worse ills.

Iwannahurl

I just find it odd that you are emphasising the value of cycle helmets yet you seem to be having far more cycle "incidents" than I have ever had over years of utility and leisure cycling. It suggests something more than random factors is involved.

As a child and teenager I fell off my bike occasionally, and had a few bad spills. I am aware that children are more likely to make mistakes or have accidents, and that their skulls are more vulnerable, which is why I make sure that my kids are helmeted routinely.

I regularly see I see helmeted cyclists doing unwise, stupid or downright dangerous things. My favourite examples would be helmeted red light jumpers, helmeted footpath cyclists and helmeted salmon cyclists. Sometimes the helmeted ones are doing all three, and more besides.

I once had a helmeted cyclist berate me for not wearing a helmet, as he bypassed a red light by cycling on a footpath.

Only a few weeks ago I saw two helmeted Community Gardai on mountain bikes cycle along a footpath before crossing a roundabout anti-clockwise. These are the same people going into schools scare-mongering about helmets and cycling.

monument

gadetra wrote: »

If you commute around Dublin every day you are bound to have an incident at some point.

Not everybody is. Some people nearly go a lifetime without any contact incident -- and it's not just luck.

While it's good to be going around with caution. Going around thinking it's only a matter of time before you get hurt is not helpful to acting pro-actively.

gadetra wrote: »

I did most of my head smacking falling off horses, ...you learn to fall when you ride, and my tuck and roll usually started with my head! (I never mastered curling my neck in. I liked to have a full view of the ground rushing up towards me! :rolleyes:) That is where most of my concussions came from. I always had a problem with migraines, I think they might be connected! I don't ride anymore (living in Dublin), and I wouldn't ride the kind of horses I did before as I don't bounce like I used to!

The problem is that you were unable to learn how to fall even after successive falls.

If you're giving your personal experiences as examples, how do we know that your cycling skill level isn't a factor?

gadetra wrote: »

On the bike I was hit by a car from behind, 2 weeks without memory, hazy for a good while after. The second worst spill I took off the bike was last october, I dislocated my shoulder, (slid on a patch of oil on a roundabout) although my head took a good smack too I was wearing my helmet and my head was fine, not even a headache. I can anecdotally confirm my head was banging for a good month after the first spill, and not at all after the second. On falling off horses, it similarly hurt less with than without a hat on.

When was your last incident before that?

You do seem a little collision prone, so a helmet and even horse riding body-armour might be a good idea for you.

eeeee

monument wrote: »

Not everybody is. Some people nearly go a lifetime without any contact incident -- and it's not just luck.

While it's good to be going around with caution. Going around thinking it's only a matter of time before you get hurt is not helpful to acting pro-actively.




The problem is that you were unable to learn how to fall even after successive falls.

If you're giving your personal experiences as examples, how do we know that your cycling skill level isn't a factor?

When was your last incident before that?

You do seem a little collision prone, so a helmet and even horse riding body-armour might be a good idea for you.

I don't get on my bike every day thinking I'm going to fall off it or get hurt. But I do know it can happen, and acknowledging that is important. Thinking you are invincible isn't a good plan.


I have had two falls off my bike in 12 years. I don't break lights, I don't cycle on the footpaths, I obey the rules of the road. I consider myself to be a safe cyclist.

I never learnt how to properly fall off a bike, I haven't had a lot of practice as an adult.

On the horses, yes I did learn how to fall off (Interestingly kids no a days are not taught that. Which is incredibly dangerous). EVERYONE who rides horses WILL fall off, Olympians, world champions, hackers, everyone. Even those who rode for a living at the top of their game fall-http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/dec/04/horse-racing-jumps-falls-unseateds. And those are just the stats for racing, not schooling, riding out 3 times a day every day etc. It's a different sport, and one where concussions are common, prevalent even. It's the main reason jockey's are stood down. It happens to everyone. I wasn't in racing, sport horses, but the same thing applies. Everyone falls off, no matter how skilled you are as horses by their nature are unpredictable. No matter well you learn how to fall there will always be exceptions to that, otherwise no professional rider would ever get injured, ever.

Cycling not so much, but it can still happen. I have never had a fall in town *touch wood*. I got knocked off my bike by a car breaking the red lights at Donnybrook church, and he clipped my back wheel apparently and I came off (I don't remember it). The second was in the rain at the roundabout al Leopardstown racecourse, I remember all of that, I was wearing my helmet, even though the smack was hard enough to dislocate my shoulder my head was fine.

I am no more collision prone than anyone else. I didn't ask that driver to jump a red light and go into the back of me, also I didn't put a patch of oil in a roundabout on a wet day so I could somersault on it and hurt myself. It's luck, timing, and shíte just happens sometimes. You can't ever completely mitigate risk, but I choose to lessen mine by wearing a helmet and I have experience of hitting my head with and without, and it hurts a whole lot less with on than without.

Thanks for your last suggestions, it really added to the discussion and clarified your point :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dermot Illogical

gadetra wrote: »

I am no more collision prone than anyone else. I didn't ask that driver to jump a red light and go into the back of me, also I didn't put a patch of oil in a roundabout on a wet day so I could somersault on it and hurt myself.

You probably already know this, so apologies in advance
The driver you can do nothing about, but the oily roundabout on a wet day you can. Adjust speed downward and navigate the roundabout in as upright a position as possible. Don't use the brakes, and take primary position before entering.

eeeee

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

You probably already know this, so apologies in advance
The driver you can do nothing about, but the oily roundabout on a wet day you can. Adjust speed downward and navigate the roundabout in as upright a position as possible. Don't use the brakes, and take primary position before entering.

No bother. Yeah I did slow down, I never break going around a corner (always before). but it was absolutely píssing rain, and I didn't see the oil. I didn't see it after either. I probably could have been more upright alright, I thought that was what it was until the driver in the car behind me pointed it (the oil) out to me fair play to him. If it was just an upright position situation I wouldn't have come down on the right hand side, as I was going round to the right but landed on my left shoulder and out it went.

Iwannahurl

gadetra wrote: »

I have had two falls off my bike in 12 years.

I've had none. Which of course proves not a lot, since serious falls are evidently rare.

Would you say horse-riding is more risky, in terms of head injury potential?

eeeee

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Would you say horse-riding is more risky, in terms of head injury potential?

Yes. There is also much better head protection than in cycling. Also in more general terms. A bike doesn't weigh half a tonne, and it cant kick you in the head (or anywhere!), roll on you, trample you. An awful lot of jockey's injuries come from being trampled by the rest of the field as opposed to the initial fall.
There is also a thing called a rotational fall in the cross country world, where the horse doesn't pick up in front to a solid (unknockable) fence, and chests it. 70% of these falls are fatal, as you are catapulted forward instead of out the back/side door, and the horse falls directly on top of you. It happens in the blink of an eye. In racing it is rare.
Even in flat disciplines like dressage, where there are no fences, falls can be catastrophic. I know people who broke backs falling on the flat, and my worst falls happened on the flat to. Courtney King, American Olympic dressage rider had a fall at home, not wearing a hat and is now left with a severe brain injury. She will never ride at that level again.There wasn't a culture of wearing a hat in dressage but that is now changing due to the sheer number of high profile accidents coming to public attention. In racing in recent years Jt McNamara, probably the most experienced point to pointer in the world, was paralyzed from the neck down in a fall at his last Cheltenham in 2013.

You have never had a car drive into you, you are lucky. I have. You may never. That is not an indictment of my cycling skill, I can't stop cars driving into the back of me. Some jockey's can get through a career of racing without serious injury, some don't. JT McNamara got through over 30 and got paralyzed in his last. You can't say you will never have an accident on the bike on the road because you can't control every car that goes by you. I was cycling along, had a green light and still a car went into the back of me. You can take steps to ensure the risk is lessened, cycling defensively etc. all of which I do now and did then. Forgetting my helmet that day almost certainly added to the severity of the head injury I sustained, so I haven't forgotten it since!

pelevin

But Gadetra, you are saying that horse-riding is far, far more dangerous than cycling, regardless of the correctness of protection used - accepting for the sake of argument about the worth of helmets. But yet you aren't advising people stop the far more dangerous activity of horse-riding regardless of the significant danger attached. So if horse-riders are allowed accept the danger element involved in the activity, I don't see it shouldn't be a matter for the volition of the cyclist whether he/she chooses to cycle without a helmet, or the statistically marginal or debatably slightly less dangerous act of cycling with the helmet. I don't see it as comparative at all to say that like motorcycling, rather than an act of freewill, this should be imposed on people. I don't know if that is your position but considering you accepted putting yourself into the path of far more danger over the years with horses, I wouldn't see much consistency then in denying other people the right to make a far less dangerous lifestyle choice of cycling without a helmet.

monument

gadetra wrote: »

I don't get on my bike every day thinking I'm going to fall off it or get hurt. But I do know it can happen, and acknowledging that is important. Thinking you are invincible isn't a good plan.

Hopefully nobody is going around thinking they are invincible, but it's maybe just as bad thinking that sooner or later (a) it's inevitable that you will get hit / have a bad fall and (b) that it's inevitable in such a case your head will get hit.

gadetra wrote: »

I never learnt how to properly fall off a bike, I haven't had a lot of practice as an adult.

I suppose it's best that people get practice at it when they are a child. It seems some cyclists these days have lost the ability or required reflexes to put their hands and arms out in front of then. (Not talking about you directly)

gadetra wrote: »

On the horses, yes I did learn how to fall off....

In your last post you seem to say that you did learn, but never properly: ie "I never mastered curling my neck in." Maybe I'm wrong but it sounds like a key part of the practiced fall.