Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

Qualitymark

ciara1052 wrote: »

I've googled the MIPs helmets that seem to have some sort of validation online but they're fairly expensive. I got quite a shock and may invest in one anyway because I'd hate to have another fall with more severe consequences and be stuck thinking 'what if' . Anyone have any advice about picking out a helmet/where to go in Dublin that have the MIPs ones?

I've found it impossible, because my head is under the 55cm minimum that's the only size stocked in Ireland. People say "Sure try on the 55cm and you'll get an idea if it's comfortable", which is a bit like saying "Sure try on the size 20 jacket and you'll see if the size 12 will suit you".

ciara1052

Qualitymark wrote: »

I've found it impossible, because my head is under the 55cm minimum that's the only size stocked in Ireland. People say "Sure try on the 55cm and you'll get an idea if it's comfortable", which is a bit like saying "Sure try on the size 20 jacket and you'll see if the size 12 will suit you".

Ah right, I may have to just pick something else up in that case!
Thanks

Mercian Pro

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Bit of road rash and some scrapes and bruises, looks like the helmet got the worst of it...

"This morning one of our experienced club members was nearly killed cycling to work when he wiped out on a oil patch on the road. Doctors have put his survival down to the fact he was wearing a, now destroyed, helmet. He was extremely lucky to come away alive with "only" severe concussion, multiple broken ribs, a broken finger, multiple lacerations and lots of bruising. This show us the importance of wearing a helmet at all times when cycling. Please share this post with your family and friends."
Quote from the Howth cycling Club FB page.

I seem to remember that one of the cycling fatalities in 2014 was a guy in Wicklow out on a club spin who also skided on an oil patch.

galwaycyclist

Mercian Pro wrote: »

"This morning one of our experienced club members was nearly killed cycling to work when he wiped out on a oil patch on the road. Doctors have put his survival down to the fact he was wearing a, now destroyed, helmet. He was extremely lucky to come away alive with "only" severe concussion, multiple broken ribs, a broken finger, multiple lacerations and lots of bruising. This show us the importance of wearing a helmet at all times when cycling. Please share this post with your family and friends."
Quote from the Howth cycling Club FB page.

I seem to remember that one of the cycling fatalities in 2014 was a guy in Wicklow out on a club spin who also skided on an oil patch.

So tell us how are these doctors qualified or competent to make such a claim?

tomasrojo

It's difficult to respond to these individually, but the medical community do tend to respond fairly predictably to bicycle-related injury:

            Ok                   Death           Serious Injury

Helmet      Helmet prevented    (S)he did all    Dead without helmet 
            all injury          (s)he could                             

No Helmet   Incredibly lucky,   What do you      Helmet would have 
            irresponsible       expect?          meant no injury

tomasrojo

(I'm not saying that any of these responses is always wrong. But they can't all be always right.)

Mercian Pro

I have no wish to get embroiled in this long-running thread. My post above was intended to counter the quoted comment that the guy only had "a bit of road rash and some scrapes and bruises". It was moved here by a Mod presumably because it seemed to endorse the benefits of wearing a helmet.

Mercian Pro

Maybe this one from last week should have been moved here as well?;)

".....Long story short. Here I lay on a trolley in Tallaght hospital. Suspected fractured wrist and a severely bruised back. I'm in ribbons. Bike potentially write off. Helmet saved my life. Lesson today, nerver assume a driver will stop when entering a roundabout when you are on it. Be careful out there."

eeeee

Mod Note: The post was moved in here as it was about helmets, and this is the helmet thread. Any questions about mod actions are by PM only do not respond in thread

Macy0161

It's probably come up before on the thread, but I've only just found out that VAT is payable on helmets here - had a helmet priced at £65 in the UK jump to £80 once it was coming here!

Maybe the RSA would be better campaigning for VAT to be removed from helmets, given that they see them as essential, rather than spending money on campaigns implying they are a legal requirement!

check_six

Macy0161 wrote: »

It's probably come up before on the thread, but I've only just found out that VAT is payable on helmets here - had a helmet priced at £65 in the UK jump to £80 once it was coming here!

Maybe the RSA would be better campaigning for VAT to be removed from helmets, given that they see them as essential, rather than spending money on campaigns implying they are a legal requirement!

The VAT thing cannot be changed, apparently. Some kind of euro entry thing whereby the VAT bands cannot be changed for various classes of goods and services. I can't remember the exact details, but it was explained on here before. We had bike helmets rated at the top rate 21% VAT in Ireland at a particular date and now we are stuck with it unless you change the VAT for everything in that band.

I'm not entirely convinced that something couldn't be done to fix it if there was some kind of strong political motive for doing so, but they are only polystyrene hats so nobody is that bothered (like a helmet-to-work/school type scheme).

Your point that the RSA should stop promoting helmets like they are a legal requirement is a good one.

Anyone know what the VAT rate is for helmets in places with mandatory helmet laws (like Australia)?

Qualitymark

Is there a separate VAT rate (zero rating) for safety equipment?

VAT is bizarre - tampons rated as "luxury items" - a pure tax on women, books zero-rated but ebooks 23% - a pure tax on ideas.

Cookie_Monster

check_six wrote: »

Anyone know what the VAT rate is for helmets in places with mandatory helmet laws (like Australia)?

15% GST in NZ anyway, not 100% on Aus but it's 10% GST I think

15% GST on sun-cream here too despite the lack of ozone and exceptionally high skin cancer rates...

incidentally just to prove it's not actually about safety in any way:

The Queensland government announced in April 2013 that exemptions on religious grounds from mandatory bicycle helmet laws would be granted from 2014

and for NZ

Subclauses (1) and (5) do not apply to a person if the Agency grants the person a written exemption from the requirement to wear a safety helmet on the grounds of religious belief or physical disability or other reasonable grounds.

tomasrojo

I'm guessing that exemption is primarily for Sikhs, as they can't really wear one over the religiously mandated turban.

Australia's strange helmet regime explored here:

Yet the Australian government has deemed the helmet a pro rider rides (and crashes) at 100kph isn't good enough for someone riding down the beach, or on a weekend cafe ride that tops out at 50kph.

No one we speak to for this article can give us a reason as to why an Australian standard helmet is needed to ride in Australia other than "it’s what the law says".

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/do-i-need-to-wear-an-australian-standards-helmet-45789/

Some waffle about special UV protection in the Australian standard there too, even though the Australian standard doesn't mention UV protection.

At this stage, they seem to be trying to divine what the "Founding Fathers" of the original law intended, in the manner of Originalists in the USA trying to interpret the Constitution.

Cookie_Monster

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm guessing that exemption is primarily for Sikhs, as they can't really wear one over the religiously mandated turban.

which is unfair on everyone else. It's supposed to be a safety measure to reduce head injuries and death. If people are able to be exempted for some fairy tale nonsense it's clearly less about safety and more about trying to marginalise cycling. The One Immortal Being ain't gonna stop you head splattering all over the pavement or going over the bonnet of a car now is he/she/it

tomasrojo

Sikhs are exempt from wearing crash helmets on motorbikes in the UK and other jurisidictions too. Think Sikhs get a few exemptions internationally. Funnily enough, they don't get an exemption in Ireland from a conflicting uniform requirement of the Garda Reserve:
http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-sikh-banned-from-wearing-turban-in-ireland-1115546

Or they didn't in 2007 anyway.

The right to religious observation is taken quite seriously in most countries, because it is of itself an important right, whatever about the plausibility of the beliefs underpinning the religion.

enas

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

which is unfair on everyone else.

Apparently (so I've been told by a non-Sikh Indian friend of mine), sikhism put, originally at least, a strong emphasis on warrior skills, and the turban might have been thought of as a natural head protection device. So given the open nature of the effectiveness of helmets, one might wonder if Sikh turbans are as effective as helmets in preventing head injuries.

A quick and lazy google search found me this article, which suggests industrial safety helmets are more effective than Sikh turbans, so similar studies for cycling helmets might actually exist.

Cookie_Monster

enas wrote: »

Apparently (so I've been told by a non-Sikh Indian friend of mine), sikhism put, originally at least, a strong emphasis on warrior skills, and the turban might have been thought of as a natural head protection device. So given the open nature of the effectiveness of helmets, one might wonder if Sikh turbans are as effective as helmets in preventing head injuries.

A quick and lazy google search found me this article, which suggests industrial safety helmets are more effective than Sikh turbans, so similar studies for cycling helmets might actually exist.

which is fine if optional. But may as well have a law mandating everyone has to wear a turban while cycling rather than have a stupid exemption for believing in fairy stories.

Carawaystick

I wonder does his noodlyness endorse chinstraps on Colanders?

galwaycyclist

enas wrote: »

Apparently (so I've been told by a non-Sikh Indian friend of mine), sikhism put, originally at least, a strong emphasis on warrior skills, and the turban might have been thought of as a natural head protection device. So given the open nature of the effectiveness of helmets, one might wonder if Sikh turbans are as effective as helmets in preventing head injuries.

A quick and lazy google search found me this article, which suggests industrial safety helmets are more effective than Sikh turbans, so similar studies for cycling helmets might actually exist.

My culturally aware side recalls that Sikhs dont cut their hair - which I think is part of the reason for the turban. The scientist in me is inclined to wonder if the test setup for the helmet included a component for long hair tied up.

CramCycle

Carawaystick wrote: »

I wonder does his noodlyness endorse chinstraps on Colanders?

I think he is cool either way, nice like that, when I don't wear it, I have homemade Carbonara and ask forgiveness

tomasrojo

Remarkably, this look at risk taking and helmets is in the Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3393812/Are-cycle-helmets-really-safe-People-risks-wearing-head-gear-increases-chance-accident.html

It's surprisingly late and light in bringing in opposing voices too.

Qualitymark

CramCycle wrote: »

Not sure where have them but I know that the most reasonably priced one is the Giro Savant for 100euro if you like a road look, or you can get the Giro Sutton, also 100euro but looks more like a commuter/skater helmet, both with MIPS

Very strange variation in prices of these on Amazon

buffalo

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0125/762732-helmet-safety/

Great to see RTE running a piece on helmets without scaremongering:

Wearing a helmet could actually make people less safe because they are more inclined to take greater risks, new research has claimed.
...
Dr Gamble said: "This is not to say that people shouldn't wear safety equipment, but rather to say that the whole topic is far more complicated than most people think.

tomasrojo

buffalo wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0125/762732-helmet-safety/

Great to see RTE running a piece on helmets without scaremongering:

"More complicated than most people think" is probably a good summing up of road safety's relationship to epidemiology in general (as well as almost the title of a Ben Goldacre book).

The Guardian had a pretty good report on the study recently, and it was the only report that made it clear that there was a "Weakest Link" style aspect to the game: the participant built up units of fictional currency as the balloon inflated and they could "bank" the currency at any time, but would lose it all if the balloon burst. The helmet wearers inflated the balloon significantly more, trying to maximise their score.

Deedsie

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B006WH24I6/ref=aw_wl_ov_dp_1_6?colid=2S0PCULC69DQB&coliid=I2A9RKV63A8FWK

Does anyone know if I could pick one of these up anywhere in Ireland?

Thanks

tomasrojo

Let’s begin by forgetting the usual tedious arguments about bike helmet use – you can do it; close your eyes, count to 10, breathe – and instead focus on the more minor irritations concerning them.

www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2016/feb/03/headkayse-bike-helmet-you-can-drop-and-keep-using

New design, can take multiple knocks, doesn't bounce so much on impact, foldable.

The helmet comes across in the article as less than ideal for a few reasons, but the reviewer likes the use of the new material that does the shock absorption. It has struck me -- leaving aside the usual arguments we all know about whether and when helmets are necessary -- that the use of expanded polystyrene has long been due an overhaul, at least on more expensive helmets. With all the advances in materials science since the eighties, there HAS to be a better material by now.

buffalo

tomasrojo wrote: »

It has struck me

Shoulda been wearing a helmet - BOOM BOOM!

CatFromHue

tomasrojo wrote: »

www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2016/feb/03/headkayse-bike-helmet-you-can-drop-and-keep-using

New design, can take multiple knocks, doesn't bounce so much on impact, foldable.

The helmet comes across in the article as less than ideal for a few reasons, but the reviewer likes the use of the new material that does the shock absorption. It has struck me -- leaving aside the usual arguments we all know about whether and when helmets are necessary -- that the use of expanded polystyrene has long been due an overhaul, at least on more expensive helmets. With all the advances in materials science since the eighties, there HAS to be a better material by now.

I would expect in the next few years to see some new helmets with better energy absorption to come on the market.

I saw a PhD specifically on helmet design a few months ago for example.

tomasrojo

This seems a reasonable summary of the laissez-faire side of this thread.

“You idiot!” I shouted as I stormed up to him, pulling the glass away and pouring the contents onto the floor with a dramatic flourish. “Stop drinking or you will die!” I walked on, chest puffed out with pride. Another liver-abuser converted.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2016/feb/04/vulpine-bike-clothing-company-models-without-helmets-dont-hate-us

We’ll agree to disagree. Then we can talk about our favourite climbs and which nuts make the best brownies. That’d be nice. Cycling is after all, wonderful.