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Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

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    #1772
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,737 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Waiting at the junction beside the Bleeding Horse today when a DB ran through a red, nearly hit an elderly gent starting to cross the road. Never even noticed. I presume it was the green helmet she was wearing. I heard rumours some people wore helmets on DBs but I had never seen one of these creatures on the wild before. With an n=1, I can confidently say, they are all asshats.

    While my story shows nothing except this one person was an unobservant/inconsiderate ass, I did ponder, did her helmet wearing subconsciously make her less observant, over confident?

    Ah, anecdotes, fueling biased internet discussion for years


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    #1773
    mcgratheoin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Re life jacket, the question always thrown back is how strong a swimmer are you when unconscious? Or when a person who's not a great swimmer grabs onto you when in a panic and drags you down in the process.

    The lifejacket isn't really a fair comparison either - we can have an interesting debate about the effectiveness of helmets in specific situations, but the effectiveness of a life jacket is pretty much beyond debate at this stage.


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    #1774
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    do helmets have lifespans? i've read somewhere that salt from sweat can slowly degrade them, or that they should be replaced after 3 years; is there any basis for either of these claims?

    my one was made in 2008, and i'm wondering if it's worth the hassle of trying to replace the pads, or whether there's other reasons i should retire it.

    There's not a huge basis for helmets as a start, they only protect you from skull fractures and do nothing for turning your brain to mush.

    If there's something there to be sacrificial I'd be very skeptical age will play any part.


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    #1775
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    ED E wrote: »
    There's not a huge basis for helmets as a start, they only protect you from skull fractures and do nothing for turning your brain to mush.

    So just don't bother with a helmet and deal with skull fractures? Is that the advice?

    I've had two concussions in the past 18 months that I'm pretty sure could have been avoided if I'd been wearing a helmet on those occasions.


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    #1776
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Effects wrote: »
    So just don't bother with a helmet and deal with skull fractures? Is that the advice?

    I've had two concussions in the past 18 months that I'm pretty sure could have been avoided if I'd been wearing a helmet on those occasions.

    We have a helmet thread that this should probably go in.

    Science disagrees.


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    #1777
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    ED E wrote: »
    Science disagrees.

    Which is the excuse I use when people give out to me for not wearing my helmet.
    Only yesterday evening I was shouted at by a driver for having no helmet. I think that was out of frustration from them having to queue to drive off Bull Island!

    I'd love to read more of the actual science so I'll look for that thread.

    My anecdotal evidence is based on three falls from the bike where I hit my head and the one time when I was wearing a helmet was the one time I didn't get a concussion. The first of those falls left me unable to recognise my house key on the bunch!


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    #1778
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,737 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    The Davestator wrote: »
    If wearing a seat belt in a car was not law would you wear one? Do you wear a life jacket on water? Do you wear a helmet if sking?

    Each to their own, but I genuinely don't understand why anyone would choose not to wear a helmet when it's clearly dangerous to cycle in Ireland.
    I overheat, I have neck problems (interestingly caused by a helmet during an accident), statistically speaking, there seems to be no benefit, because of the associated fear mongering it may put people I know off cycling etc. I can hear your point of but what if a, b or c happens. When I was younger, a, b and c did happen (mainly my own fault). The only time that I was left with any issues from a, b or c was while wearing a helmet. Do I go around preaching the dangers of helmets. Of course not, because my story is an anecdote and it is also one that is very hard to go with but my point of view seems to be supported by studies. mandatory helmet laws reduce cyclists numbers but do nothing to alleviate head injury numbers.

    Cycling in Ireland is not dangerous. Getting out of bed and leaving your house by any means, is as dangerous or more dangerous. The thing is, that not leaving your house at all is probably more dangerous in the long run.
    mcgratheoin wrote: »
    The lifejacket isn't really a fair comparison either - we can have an interesting debate about the effectiveness of helmets in specific situations, but the effectiveness of a life jacket is pretty much beyond debate at this stage.

    Interestingly a lifeguard said to me that the other huge benefit of the lifejacket over nothing (apparent from assistance) is psychologically (in his opinion), people were less likely to freak out, or would calm down quicker, meaning they would be far more likely to survive. No proof, just an opinion, but an interesting one.


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    #1779
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,354 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ED E wrote: »
    There's not a huge basis for helmets as a start, they only protect you from skull fractures and do nothing for turning your brain to mush.

    If there's something there to be sacrificial I'd be very skeptical age will play any part.
    i'm well aware of the debate and the other thread covering this debate.


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    #1780
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    rubadub wrote: »
    In the back of a car I would probably not, I don't bother most of the time on coaches either.

    That's not entirely your choice though. It's the safety of other people you endanger when you don't wear a seatbelt in the back.


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    #1781
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    How risky is it to sit in the back seat of a car in a 30km/h zone without a seat belt? I'm assuming not very risky. Probably not far off sitting on a Dublin Bus doing 50km/h without a seat belt, which I do frequently enough without worrying too much about it.

    Anyway, not arguing against wearing seat belts. I am quite interested in attitudes to risk though, especially the point at which a risk goes from the concern of neurotics only to the disapproval of strangers.


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    #1782
    from_atozinc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭from_atozinc


    Effects wrote: »
    So just don't bother with a helmet and deal with skull fractures? Is that the advice?

    I've had two concussions in the past 18 months that I'm pretty sure could have been avoided if I'd been wearing a helmet on those occasions.

    just wondering really, why didn't you wear a helmet after the first concussion?


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    #1783
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,737 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    to the disapproval of strangers.

    Its funny, I know lots of people who disapprove of others doing things that are either illegal or risky but never see the irony as they do the same themselves.


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    #1784
    youtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭youtheman


    ED E wrote: »
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    do helmets have lifespans? i've read somewhere that salt from sweat can slowly degrade them, or that they should be replaced after 3 years; is there any basis for either of these claims?

    my one was made in 2008, and i'm wondering if it's worth the hassle of trying to replace the pads, or whether there's other reasons i should retire it.

    There's not a huge basis for helmets as a start, they only protect you from skull fractures and do nothing for turning your brain to mush.

    If there's something there to be sacrificial I'd be very skeptical age will play any part.
    There speak the Chairman of the 'Flat Earth' society.


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    #1785
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Its funny, I know lots of people who disapprove of others doing things that are either illegal or risky but never see the irony as they do the same themselves.

    Me too.


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    #1786
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    How risky is it to sit in the back seat of a car in a 30km/h zone without a seat belt? I'm assuming not very risky.

    Not far off sitting on a bench in a park.


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    #1787
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,354 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    How risky is it to sit in the back seat of a car in a 30km/h zone without a seat belt?
    well, it depends on how fast the car is moving.


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    #1788
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Not far off sitting on a bench in a park.

    :rolleyes: how is that even comparable...


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    #1789
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Luciano Jealous Underdog wrote: »
    :rolleyes: how is that even comparable...

    Well, when sitting on a bench you are actually stopped and when doing 30kph you are practically stopped. So they are not far off.


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    #1790
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Effects wrote: »
    That's not entirely your choice though. It's the safety of other people you endanger when you don't wear a seatbelt in the back.

    The road safety advert from years ago with the elephant coming through from the back seats has always stuck with me.

    I think there was a Mythbusters, or similar, episode which tested the force various objects came through from the back of a car at.


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    #1791
    I love Sean nos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭I love Sean nos


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    when doing 30kph you are practically stopped.
    Good grief. A 1st year secondary school student wouldn't come out with that nonsense. :confused:


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    #1792
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    Effects wrote: »
    Which is the excuse I use when people give out to me for not wearing my helmet.
    Only yesterday evening I was shouted at by a driver for having no helmet. I think that was out of frustration from them having to queue to drive off Bull Island!

    I'd love to read more of the actual science so I'll look for that thread.

    My anecdotal evidence is based on three falls from the bike where I hit my head and the one time when I was wearing a helmet was the one time I didn't get a concussion. The first of those falls left me unable to recognise my house key on the bunch!

    You need to stop falling off your bike or maybe get some training wheels :P


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    #1793
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Well, I'm not arguing that it's as safe as wearing a good, well-fitting seat belt. I'm just assuming that it's about as dangerous as travelling in a bus at similar speed, which I do all the time without wearing a seat belt. That is, obviously not zero risk, but not very dangerous. Or if it is, I should really reconsider those bus journeys.


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    #1794
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    iwillhtfu wrote: »
    I call bull **** on that and would be interested to see where this so called scientific testing was carried out?

    OP I recall reading about degradation somewhere but generally I wear it till it's visibly damaged broken strap clips etc.
    I'm not 100% sure where the view that helmets don't prevent concussions come from, but it's been in the media a lot in the last few years, but mostly in discussion of American Football helmets.


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    #1795
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,354 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    would be interesting to see the stats on crashes buses are involved in, and what speeds they happen at; they don't accelerate very fast and are big and generally visible. i suspect you're more at risk of being driven into while in a car than while on a bus.

    also worth mentioning that in an equivalent incident (let's say a bus being hit by a particular type of vehicle), the deceleration or acceleration you experience on a bus will be much less pronounced than in a car.


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    #1796
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Yeah, maybe. I've been in buses that have stopped very rapidly, and people did go flying, and I've often been in buses travelling at about 50km/h with people standing up for lack of seats. There have been quite bad outcomes from bus collisions, crashes and overturns, but I think they were mostly intercity buses (which do have belts), and one school bus (which didn't have belts, but led to call for school buses to have belts).

    I guess the logic can be applied further to bicycles travelling at 30km/h, where the sizes are even smaller and the likely outcome from a collision is worse, and acceleration/deceleration possibilities are worse again. Despite that, it doesn't seem to be that dangerous either.

    Anyway, my feeling is that it's not all that dangerous (depending on what the other traffic is doing; as in, are the other vehicles doing about 30km/h as well -- don't laugh), but feelings are all I have (there's a song in that, probably).

    EDIT: I think I'm a bit guilty of derailing here. I am quite interested in risk equivalence though. It seems to be quite hard to establish, without big datasets.


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    #1797
    mcgratheoin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Not far off sitting on a bench in a park.

    I take it you wouldn't be a helmet fan for cycling either so if 30km/h is practically stopped.


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    #1798
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    mcgratheoin wrote: »
    I take it you wouldn't be a helmet fan for cycling either so if 30km/h is practically stopped.

    We have a thread for discussions like that. Oh, err, right, as you were.


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    #1799
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,354 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i once did pick up a minor injury on a bus - i was standing in the middle door stepwell about 20 years ago, on the number 10, and a taxi passenger doored a cyclist right into the path of the bus; needless to say the driver had to stand on the brakes. i went a bit arse over tit - i'd nodded off slightly while standing, and managed to somehow sprain my ankle.


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    #1800
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Yeah, I once hit the partition of the stairwell when the bus stopped in a similar way. My hands got up just in time though. There was a bit of time as I was sitting in the seats just behind the bottom of the stairwell at the time.


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    #1801
    skeleton_boy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭skeleton_boy


    Effects wrote: »
    So just don't bother with a helmet and deal with skull fractures? Is that the advice?

    I've had two concussions in the past 18 months that I'm pretty sure could have been avoided if I'd been wearing a helmet on those occasions.

    A helmet will not protect you from concussion.

    Concussions are caused by your brain jolting inside your skull. Unless you can wrap your tongue around your skull like a woodpecker, no helmet will prevent a concussion.

    Google nfl helmets and concussion and you'll find plenty of evidence to support this.


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