Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

CramCycle

average_runner wrote: »

Not really. My interest on the helmets was there any evidence showing they were or were not effective for cyclists.

Quite alot actually, links were provided earlier. The problem with alot of pro and anti helmet viewpoints is they pick out anecdoetes or single case studies. Meta studies are of far more use in regards assessment IMO, and in the main, they show no difference to mortality or rserious injury rates. You can look at change in behaviour etc. but the truth from my reading is that in the main, it makes such a statistically insignificant difference, it is not worth discussing. As Chris Boardman said quite succinctly, in regards Cycling Safety, Helmets shouldn't even get into the top 10 discussion points.

average_runner wrote: »

But can a helment give better protection on when a head injury occurs?

Depends on the hit, the angle, the speed, the helmet, what did you hit, and so on. Unless you are willing to go through every possibility, then you have to ignore it and go into the large scale analysis.

magicbastarder

I wear a helmet when I'm out on a longer spin and there's a good chance I'll hit a decent speed. If I'm going down to the shop, I won't wear one. That's the not-actually-that-subtle difference which is often too subtle in debates like this. Many of us here have 'I'm glad I was wearing a helmet at the time' stories (I do) but there's no one size fits all scenario for a clear 'should you wear a helmet' question.

07Lapierre

When it comes to helmets while cycling, Chris Boardman has the answer...”if you want to wear a helmet, wear one. If you don’t want to wear one, don’t”

Amirani

theunforgiven wrote: »

From my own experience I was blessed to be wearing a helmet when I came off the bike a few years ago.
Hit the deck about 40km/h, cuts, bruises, shoulder separation, broken ribs.

If you're doing the sort of cycling that's going to involve hitting the ground at 40 km/hr, then yes, you should be wearing a helmet.

That's not what most people here are talking about, it's about regular commuters etc. who won't be travelling at the sort of speeds that would lead to them hitting the ground at 40 km/hr after leaving their bike.

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

Not really. My interest on the helmets was there any evidence showing they were or were not effective for cyclists.

If helmets provide safety for head injuries when cycling, surely then its a good idea to safe at least 1 life? Do you agree or disagree in relation to just cycling?

Now if you want to go down the road of what other modes of transport should or have for safety, then ideally cyclists should have the same protection gear a motorcyclists has, pads for knees and elbows, and back protection also when racing.

If you want to 'save just one life' then surely mandatory driving helmets for all would be the obvious place to start, given that far more head injuries occur in cars than on bikes. And if 'save just one life' is the threshold, there are many, many other options available that would have a far bigger impact that bike helmets - like dramatic reducing speed limits, serious enforcement of traffic laws, automatic compliance with speed limits and more - do you agree these are good ideas?

rubadub

velo.2010 wrote: »

wow, some great points there, so eloquent. You sad pathetic troll.

velo.2010

rubadub wrote: »

wow, some great points there, so eloquent. You sad pathetic troll.

Me, a troll? Eh...no.
Go back and have a read of your post.

Mercian Pro

07Lapierre wrote: »

When it comes to helmets while cycling, Chris Boardman has the answer...”if you want to wear a helmet, wear one. If you don’t want to wear one, don’t”

After over 2000 posts, it all comes down to this. Surely time to close the thread before we start another round of immovable opinions.

CramCycle

Mercian Pro wrote: »

After over 2000 posts, it all comes down to this. Surely time to close the thread before we start another round of immovable opinions.

Kind of what the thread is for, everyone knows certain people will never change their opinions, they will derail other threads or start new threads on the subject, so rather than having to bother moderating such a PITA, they just get moved in here. This thread will never close, and that is for the good of the forum

magicbastarder

this is the rather apt 'pounding your head off a brick wall' thread.

rubadub

looking up that helmet campaign posted in the journo thread

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47684746

Cycle helmet safety campaign with scantily clad models sparks storm

A model lies suggestively on a bed wearing little more than knickers - and a cycle helmet.

It is an attempt by the German transport ministry to get younger cyclists to embrace head protection.

But the video - what the Transport Minister Andreas Scheuer thinks is a hip way of getting the message across - has run into protest.

"Embarrassing, stupid and sexist," said a senior female politician, two days before the campaign launch.

The campaign uses an English slogan, acknowledging that a cycle helmet may be unflattering "but saves my life". Aside from the video, street posters are due to go up throughout Germany from Tuesday.

The campaign features Alicija, a hopeful in Germany's Next Top Model, as well as a range of male models.

But Maria Noichl, who chairs the women's committee of the Social Democratic Party (SPD), was scathing in comments to Bild newspaper: "Embarrassing, stupid and sexist when the transport minister markets his policy with naked flesh."

And the Minister for the Family Franziska Giffey, also a Social Democrat, posted a picture of herself on Facebook with the comment: "With helmet and clothed".

Mr Scheuer, whose conservative CSU governs in coalition with the Social Democrats and Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU, appears unfazed.

His ministry defended the approach, pointing out on Twitter that the target group is young men and women who spurn helmets on aesthetic grounds. The video has been viewed by 1.78 million people aged between 14 and 49, the ministry says.

According to Germany's Road Safety Association (DVR), 430 cyclists were killed on Germany's streets last year - 14% more than in 2017. Only 8% of the target age group wear helmets, the DVR says.

I find it ironic that she is supposed to be supporting a campaign about safety being more important than appearance yet is wearing high heels and dress, if I was a woman I would not fancy cycling in either for safety reasons.

velo.2010 wrote: »

Me, a troll? Eh...no.

eh, you have just confirmed it... your 2nd post now with no contribution or discussion and solely made to antagonise.

cdaly_

rubadub wrote: »

I find it ironic that she is supposed to be supporting a campaign about safety being more important than appearance yet is wearing high heels and dress, if I was a woman I would not fancy cycling in either for safety reasons.

What's unsafe about high heels and a dress when cycling?

07Lapierre

cdaly_ wrote: »

What's unsafe about high heels and a dress when cycling?

Nothing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=women+cycling+in+amsterdam&rlz=1C1EJFB_enIE696IE696&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS3cCo5p_hAhVFtHEKHdLvCcsQ_AUIDigB&biw=1656&bih=905

rubadub

cdaly_ wrote: »

What's unsafe about high heels and a dress when cycling?

Was expecting that, which is why I was careful to say I personally would not fancy it. I would feel safer in other attire and would not recommend high heels to anybody I know if asked. I could not imagine any cycling authority showing high heels in an image promoting safe attire.

If I came to an abrupt stop, which happened to me last year when a chain got mangled up then if I fell off to either side I would like to have a very firm footing. This is why I, I, would also not fancy having clip in pedals either, I tried them before and did not like them at all.

If I was a woman I would never wear heels in general for safety reasons and know women who do not. I imagine if they were invented today they would be ridiculed. I have often had to use use my foot for additional breaking too which is why I stick to certain footwear.

That dress also looks like it could be constrictive if having to put a foot out suddenly, and I imagine the motion of it may be distracting, which is why I do not wear certain trousers and rain gear I have. It also exposed the knees and lower leg to more injury.

I also do not wear shorts and usually stick to long sleeves too in case I fall.

wheelo01

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is the rather apt 'pounding your head off a brick wall' thread.

And I hope you are wearing your helmet while reading it!!! :cool:

Lumen

magicbastarder wrote: »

the 'just one life saved' argument is an attempt to avoid the debate, not stimulate it.

If lives were infinitely valuable we would ban cars, or at least limit them to 30kph.

We don't, because every sane person recognises that there is a trade off between safety and convenience.

We don't even limit cars to 130kph, because.....freedom and personal responsibility?

Many motoring enthusiasts have an NRA like reflex against regulation of their own things but think it's completely reasonable to force other people to be inconvenienced by the risks they themselves impose. It's funny.

I introduce motorists not in an attempt to worsen the us vs them, since most of us are them, but because juxtaposing the two brings useful perspective.

theunforgiven

That's not what most people here are talking about, it's about regular commuters etc. who won't be travelling at the sort of speeds that would lead to them hitting the ground at 40 km/hr after leaving their bike.[/QUOTE]

People trip and fall, hit their head and die all the time. Falling from a trip or falling at 40km/h are both dangerous.

You don't have to be travelling at 40km/hr to do damage to yourself or you head!
A stumble on your leisurely commute through traffic and hit you head off the kerb/tarmac and you will know all about it.

buffalo

theunforgiven wrote: »

A stumble on your leisurely commute through traffic and hit you head off the kerb/tarmac and you will know all about it.

You're dead right. MANDATORY HELMENTS FOR ALL PEDESTRIANS!

Fighting Tao

Kind of fits for 2 posts up. https://irishcycle.com/2019/03/31/sorry-but-no-bicycle-helmets-are-not-like-vaccinations/

AndrewJRenko

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Kind of fits for 2 posts up. https://irishcycle.com/2019/03/31/sorry-but-no-bicycle-helmets-are-not-like-vaccinations/

I meant to post this earlier on, but surely this modest proposal from the same source is worthy of consideration

https://irishcycle.com/2018/04/01/bicycle-helmets-with-number-plates-to-become-mandatory-in-ireland/?fbclid=IwAR2FQIrZjDnTPPeI5mnLt5aWBsC0nUdw4W69sPpG2QYycGTRYXjcgZPrdmQ

terrydel

I'm very much an 'each to their own' person, if you want to wear a helmet do so, if not thats your choice.
However my brother had an accident last week and its not an exaggeration to say the helmet very possibly saved his life.
I think people should have the choice to wear one but that doesnt stop me thinking those that don't are incredibly stupid.

07Lapierre

terrydel wrote: »

I'm very much an 'each to their own' person, if you want to wear a helmet do so, if not thats your choice.
However my brother had an accident last week and its not an exaggeration to say the helmet very possibly saved his life.
I think people should have the choice to wear one but that doesnt stop me thinking those that don't are incredibly stupid.

Will this story convince you to wear one while driving?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6868437/Woman-warns-passengers-losing-FOREHEAD-knees-slammed-face-120mph-crash.html?ito=social-facebook&fbclid=IwAR0XlM--OEtzoOPqVr20Nt_JBAPglkqBDi2QN5B4ybv2BdfAmHkxhdP1e74

rubadub

terrydel wrote: »

that doesnt stop me thinking those that don't are incredibly stupid.

You must know plenty of incredibly stupid people, depending on your age then likely yourself and very likely your parents.

If this is "incredibly stupid" then what helmetless activities do you think are just a tad stupid. e.g. walking on icy footpaths with no helmet?

When I was growing up nobody wore cycling helmets, and the vast majority cycled to school there must have been 500 in my school, and the same in a few other schools in my area where friends went. I never heard of a single death or bad head injury in that time. Since the rise of helmets I have heard plenty of stories of how helmets have saved peoples lives. It simply does not add up, there should have been several deaths a year, esp. with how reckless many of them were. I remember a particular corner with lads dropping like flies when it was icy.

CramCycle

rubadub wrote: »

You must know plenty of incredibly stupid people, depending on your age then likely yourself and very likely your parents.

If this is "incredibly stupid" then what helmetless activities do you think are just a tad stupid. e.g. walking on icy footpaths with no helmet?

When I was growing up nobody wore cycling helmets, and the vast majority cycled to school there must have been 500 in my school, and the same in a few other schools in my area where friends went. I never heard of a single death or bad head injury in that time. Since the rise of helmets I have heard plenty of stories of how helmets have saved peoples lives. It simply does not add up, there should have been several deaths a year, esp. with how reckless many of them were. I remember a particular corner with lads dropping like flies when it was icy.

Nearly every meta study I have seen concludes that Helmet wearing does not correlate with increased rider safety or decreased mortality rate of cyclists. So while people may or may not be correct in their belief in that one incident, they are missing the huge number of nuances that mean it is not applicable to the wider world. People behave differently while wearing a helmet, whether they realise it or not, others behave differently around you. In the case of a crash , how you behave during the accident can change. And the list goes on.

Wear one, don't wear one, zero f*cks should be given by anyone but yourself.

theunforgiven

You don't have to be travelling at 40km/hr to do damage to yourself or you head!
A stumble on your leisurely commute through traffic and hit you head off the kerb/tarmac and you will know all about it.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't referring to pedestrians (it may have looked that way) and was trying to make the point that it doesn't take a massive blow to the head to do some serious damage.

Anyway, wear one, don't wear one . . .you're choice. I prefer to wear one.

Tenzor07

Is there anything more to be said for this thread?

Wear one or not, it's up to you, just like suncream! :pac:

I've hit my head with and without a lid on, and I know which one i'd prefer!

rubadub

theunforgiven wrote: »

Wasn't referring to pedestrians (it may have looked that way) and was trying to make the point that it doesn't take a massive blow to the head to do some serious damage.

Anyway, wear one, don't wear one . . .you're choice. I prefer to wear one.

I don't think he thought you were referring to them. But using your own rationale that speed is not that important, then it should follow that you would think pedestrians should wear them. Do you only wear the helmet on your bike? as you say yourself

theunforgiven wrote: »

People trip and fall, hit their head and die all the time.

Do you wear it walking, or even when icy? I was saying I have worn my MTB elbow pads when walking in icy weather as I have had bad falls before, and see people falling quite a lot in icy weather. As there are so many people out there who own helmets, some of whom think it would be mad not to wear one, I find it odd that I have never seen anybody wearing one walking in icy weather.

terrydel

rubadub wrote: »

You must know plenty of incredibly stupid people, depending on your age then likely yourself and very likely your parents.

If this is "incredibly stupid" then what helmetless activities do you think are just a tad stupid. e.g. walking on icy footpaths with no helmet?

When I was growing up nobody wore cycling helmets, and the vast majority cycled to school there must have been 500 in my school, and the same in a few other schools in my area where friends went. I never heard of a single death or bad head injury in that time. Since the rise of helmets I have heard plenty of stories of how helmets have saved peoples lives. It simply does not add up, there should have been several deaths a year, esp. with how reckless many of them were. I remember a particular corner with lads dropping like flies when it was icy.

All I can say is that had my brother not being wearing a helmet, I very likely wouldnt be reading message boards today.
It saved him from far graver injuries or worse.
As I said, and Im sure you read it, I dont care if other make the choice not to wear one, its simply my opinion that in the context of cycling, you are stupid not to.

terrydel

CramCycle wrote: »

Nearly every meta study I have seen concludes that Helmet wearing does not correlate with increased rider safety or decreased mortality rate of cyclists. So while people may or may not be correct in their belief in that one incident, they are missing the huge number of nuances that mean it is not applicable to the wider world. People behave differently while wearing a helmet, whether they realise it or not, others behave differently around you. In the case of a crash , how you behave during the accident can change. And the list goes on.

Wear one, don't wear one, zero f*cks should be given by anyone but yourself.

I've rode a motorbike daily for years, and know plenty others whove done the same, and the idea that people behave differently (as in more risky) simply because of the lid on your head, is kinda absurd, I dont know a single motorcyclist who would ascribe to that.

rubadub

terrydel wrote: »

All I can say is that had my brother not being wearing a helmet, I very likely wouldnt be reading message boards today.
It saved him from far graver injuries or worse.
As I said, and Im sure you read it, I dont care if other make the choice not to wear one, its simply my opinion that in the context of cycling, you are stupid not to.

So you are not going to answer me, fine... You just continue calling people like me stupid, maybe you are scared of looking stupid/irrational/illogical yourself if you did answer.