Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 mod warning post#7259

kryogen

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's quite annoying how anyone who is disappointed and/or angry with our start is immediately labeled as spoiled or "in meltdown".

It's quite annoying how in this topic, there's only polar opposites as opposed to a spectrum; you're either 100% behind him or you want him out tomorrow. Heaven forbid people be frustrated but on a scale...

I don't think that's accurate. The majority seem to be disappointed so far but willing to give him time.

The only people getting called out for having meltdowns are having meltdowns! Havent seen anybody 100% in support of everything that's happening so cant comment on that.

Most people do seem to be trying to be balanced though

Hulk Hands

rarnes1 wrote: »

Why let it bother you so much what people on forums /newspapers /SSN say?

Seriously? Big deal

Because it's not just them, it's fans you meet in the street/pub, everywhere. The west brom fans singing 'your getting sacked in the morning' on Sat. I don't see that being sung to Pelligreni.

lordgoat wrote: »

Overall in the league both have had much better starts than we have.

I think if we had beaten one of Liverpool Chelsea or city the drama would be less. I think it would be a lot less if the team was actually playing decent football.

Tbh I couldn't give a **** what's written in the press. Judging the teams you've mentioned I'd have Chelsea's season the best, then city and then us. Fortunately it's only October.

How have City had a much better start than us? We've lost to West Brom, Liverpool and City. They've lost to Villa and Cardiff, worse than any of the above teams. We drew with a title rival. They drew with Stoke. Theyve also been spanked in the CL. Our start is at least in a par with theirs given it's relative strength. Chelsea's has been better, but not significantly. They're only 4 points ahead off an easier start. Got beaten at home to Basle in the CL also and are lucky they have a simple group.

magnumbud

BloodBath wrote: »

It's the same team yes but not the same manager or the same staff. That makes a big difference. I could understand your optimism if Fergie was at the helm. We replaced proven winners with people with very little or no experience at the level they are at. All of the competition have strengthened too.

maybe we both need to find a balance between optimism and pessimum

BloodBath wrote: »

We were more solid defensively yes, which is a positive, but Moyes clearly set out to play a defensive game at the cost of attack, possession and gameplay. The risk barely paid off but granted it's a good point regardless of how awful we were.

fergie set out to play defensively plenty of times away from home too so i wouldnt read too much into that and i definitely wouldn't say we were awful last night

jonnyfingers

I pity Moyes because of the tough position he's in. He's inherited the Premier League champions so the squad really should be quite good and know how to win already. They have fantastic coaches and facilities and have been used to working with the same manager for decades. They have preferred tactics, training and scouting have been set up and have been successful. Really he could pick the same team as Fergie, keep everything else the same, and the majority of the time things should go well.

But maybe Moyes has his own ideas of who he'd like in the squad, which tactics to use, which staff he wants and how training and scouting should operate. The problem is he'll be criticised for choosing either approach.

If he keeps things the same and it works, he's only copying Fergie. If he keeps things the same and it doesn't work, he's a poor replacement for Fergi, he didn't strengthen the team, etc.

If he changes things drastically and it doesn't work, he's ruined the champions, why did he dare to change things!

If he changed things drastically and it works, they were the champions last year, it was easy to get them to win again. His changes didn't really improve things.


This can be applied to all areas of his management, the teams he selects, the tactics he uses, training and scouting methods, signings, etc. There's really nothing he can do that will result in pleasing everyone. In fact almost everything he does will end up disappointing most people I think, so it must be a horrible position to be in. It's not like he's taken over a Chelsea who had a bad season in the league, or City who were nobodies until the billions came flooding in, or Arsenal who haven't won anything in years. He's taken over the current league champions and one of the most stable teams in the world.

Unless he wins every competition and plays sexy football all season he won't be seen as a success by most, especially the spoiled United fans who don't remember a time when we weren't successful.

So while I'm disappointed at our poor start in the league this season, I'm mainly disappointed that it has made Moyes job even tougher. I think he's been unsure of how far he can change things for all the reasons I've stated above. I think this has resulted in a reluctance to make changes, either when it comes to line ups, or choosing players like Zaha or Januzaj, or when it comes to making tactical changes. I'm sure last night he was terrified of losing the game so didn't push of for the win. The poor start to the season might stifle him more in this respect and this is what worries me most.

Personally I don't expect us to win anything this season so I'd love for Moyes to just do things his own way. So what if it take a season for the team to adapt.

However I know, and Moyes knows, that if United drop out of the top 4 this season he's be shown the door like every other club that expects constant success (City, Chelsea etc.). I wish it wouldn't be that way, but it probably is unfortunately.

For now I fully support the manager, I just wish he could forget about all the success the team and previous manager had and treat this year as a brand new start for the club and him. Pick who you want to pick, play how you want to play, and if you're good enough it will work out. If it doesn't then he gave it his best shot and can be sacked knowing he gave it a good shot!

kryogen

You are underestimating how important City beating us has been if you think our start has been on par with theirs if Im honest

SlickRic

kryogen wrote: »

You are underestimating how important City beating us has been if you think our start has been on par with theirs if Im honest

it's amazing how many have missed this.

the City result and performance is the only reason Pellegrini has got the space he has at the minute, and why Moyes has the question marks over him.

there is quite literally no other reason.

jonnyfingers

kryogen wrote: »

You are underestimating how important City beating us has been if you think our start has been on par with theirs if Im honest

What really struck me last night was how bad we were against City and then how good Bayern were against City. I get depressed thinking about it so I'm going to stop!

magnumbud

jonnyfingers wrote: »

What really struck me last night was how bad we were against City and then how good Bayern were against City. I get depressed thinking about it so I'm going to stop!

how bad they were against Villa scares me senseless :eek:

lordgoat

Hulk Hands wrote: »

How have City had a much better start than us? We've lost to West Brom, Liverpool and City. They've lost to Villa and Cardiff, worse than any of the above teams. We drew with a title rival. They drew with Stoke. Theyve also been spanked in the CL. Our start is at least in a par with theirs given it's relative strength. Chelsea's has been better, but not significantly. They're only 4 points ahead off an easier start. Got beaten at home to Basle in the CL also and are lucky they have a simple group.

? In your own post: they have more points than us. Of course they have had a better start. They also trounced us when we played. This kind of stuff matters. Given the choice. I would always take points on the board. Give me arsenals start or spurs with who they have played over ours any day of ye week. You can't lose points when you have then. You can lose games.

BloodBath

There's way too much open hostility to anyone willing to say they have seen enough of Moyes to think he's not the man for the job. I don't go attacking people who think we will still be competing for the title this season. While that's the opposite end of the spectrum to myself it doesn't garner the same hostility as the more realistic possibility that we may not even finish in the top 4.

Hulk Hands wrote: »

How have City had a much better start than us? We've lost to West Brom, Liverpool and City. They've lost to Villa and Cardiff, worse than any of the above teams. We drew with a title rival. They drew with Stoke. Theyve also been spanked in the CL. Our start is at least in a par with theirs given it's relative strength. Chelsea's has been better, but not significantly. They're only 4 points ahead off an easier start. Got beaten at home to Basle in the CL also and are lucky they have a simple group.

Villa > West Brom this year imo. Outside of results City have looked brilliant in a few games. They looked world class against us. We have looked really poor in almost every game.

magnumbud wrote: »

maybe we both need to find a balance between optimism and pessimum

fergie set out to play defensively plenty of times away from home too so i wouldnt read too much into that and i definitely wouldn't say we were awful last night

You're right but everyone having the same "balanced" opinions is boring. What would we argue about if we all agreed with each other. I'd prefer to be right or wrong rather than play it safe at the risk of upsetting someone.

magnumbud

BloodBath wrote: »

There's way too much open hostility to anyone willing to say they have seen enough of Moyes to think he's not the man for the job. I don't go attacking people who think we will still be competing for the title this season. While that's the opposite end of the spectrum to myself it doesn't garner the same hostility as the more realistic possibility that we may not even finish in the top 4.



Villa > West Brom this year imo. Outside of results City have looked brilliant in a few games. They looked world class against us. We have looked really poor in almost every game.




You're right but everyone having the same "balanced" opinions is boring. What would we argue about if we all agreed with each other. I'd prefer to be right or wrong rather than play it safe at the risk of upsetting someone.

i agree with you( :eek: ) on them looking class against us however Cities main problem last year (and what nearly cost them the year before god damn you wigan :mad: ) is not the form they have against top teams but against other teams. city are probably the favourites this year but if they throw it away it will be based on games against the likes of stoke, villa, cardiff that will cost them the league not against us, chelsea etc.

Maximus Alexander

BloodBath wrote: »

There's way too much open hostility to anyone willing to say they have seen enough of Moyes to think he's not the man for the job.

That's because it's a pretty ridiculous opinion to hold in fairness. Moyes might be a complete failure, but we definitely haven't seen enough to draw that conclusion yet.

Hulk Hands

lordgoat wrote: »

? In your own post: they have more points than us. Of course they have had a better start. They also trounced us when we played. This kind of stuff matters. Given the choice. I would always take points on the board. Give me arsenals start or spurs with who they have played over ours any day of ye week. You can't lose points when you have then. You can lose games.

You said much better. I fail to see how 3 points after 6 games is much better. You state the importance of external factors like the influence of them beating us yet downplay another external factor like the strength of the respective games. Of course anyone would take Arsenal's or Spurs' start but that's a different point altogether

Mitch Connor

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

That's because it's a pretty ridiculous opinion to hold in fairness. Moyes might be a complete failure, but we definitely haven't seen enough to draw that conclusion yet.

haven't we?

We have seen him for 10 years as Everton manager - we have seen his approach with them to transfers, playing style and training. If he doesn't employ a different style at United to that which he used previously, then why can't we use the 10 previous years of his career as some sort of basis for assessment?

lordgoat

Hulk Hands wrote: »

You said much better. I fail to see how 3 points after 6 games is much better. You state the importance of external factors like the influence of them beating us yet downplay another external factor like the strength of the respective games. Of course anyone would take Arsenal's or Spurs' start but that's a different point altogether

Well take it this way then. I'd be much happier with either of their starts in the league than ours.

lordgoat

Mitch Connor wrote: »

haven't we?

We have seen him for 10 years as Everton manager - we have seen his approach with them to transfers, playing style and training. If he doesn't employ a different style at United to that which he used previously, then why can't we use the 10 previous years of his career as some sort of basis for assessment?

Of course you can use all that. But can you actually judge someone after 6 games in the job to any definitive level?

Headshot

TBH it was a dreadful appointment from the very start. He could well prove me wrong and I hope he does but how a man that has won **** all and no Cl experience get the job in the first place in beyond me

Pro. F

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Kryogen made this post in the match day thread and it was spot on. Me and my brother always discuss on this part of our game. This is something Sacchi commented on after our game against Barca. They move as a team and the players are close to each other whereas United is all about individual play and there is no team movement at all. Players are far from each other and they don't move as team at all.

This is what he said:

That comment by Kryo really stuck out for me too. There is something seriously wrong with this team in the final third this season. There have been a good few spells of dominating possession, but it breaks down badly in the final third. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the idea that the players aren't getting close enough to support is the best I've heard.

It might be that Moyes is asking them to cover too much ground when defending and so they don't have the energy or confidence to get into the right positions when attacking. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed soon or we're going nowhere.

Edit: Slick's comment about Moyes getting the team to push 10 yards up the pitch might solve this problem. Sacchi would approve of that

BloodBath

magnumbud wrote: »

i agree with you( :eek: ) on them looking class against us however Cities main problem last year (and what nearly cost them the year before god damn you wigan :mad: ) is not the form they have against top teams but against other teams. city are probably the favourites this year but if they throw it away it will be based on games against the likes of stoke, villa, cardiff that will cost them the league not against us, chelsea etc.

You could say that about any team that doesn't win the league in fairness. The games against rivals are really 6 point games if you can get the win.

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

That's because it's a pretty ridiculous opinion to hold in fairness. Moyes might be a complete failure, but we definitely haven't seen enough to draw that conclusion yet.

Fair enough. You're probably right but my opinion at this moment in time is that he's not the man for the job. If he starts balancing out the many negatives to his first 3 months with positives it may well change. He's going to get the time to try and do that but he's far from immune to a sacking if it doesn't look better by January regardless of a 6 year contract and backing by Fergie.

RGDATA!

Headshot wrote: »

TBH it was a dreadful appointment from the very start. He could well prove me wrong and I hope he does but how a man that has won **** all and no Cl experience get the job in the first place in beyond me

Might have had something to do with Fergie's recommendation, not that that seems to count for much for some of you.

Mitch Connor

lordgoat wrote: »

Of course you can use all that. But can you actually judge someone after 6 games in the job to any definitive level?

You are right - we can only make a definitive judgement when he is sacked, or wins the league/champions league.

However, I would say he has done absolutely nothing so far to put to bed any of the concerns people had over his appointment in the first place.

Could he sign the players we need?
Would his training methods suit a club like United?
Would he adapt his tactics as required?

It is, of course, very early days, but every question mark over him from his appointment still exists - both on and off the field.

Mitch Connor

RGDATA! wrote: »

Might have had something to do with Fergie's recommendation, not that that seems to count for much for some of you.

Fergie recommended that he keep the staff in place - and Moyes ignored that. So if Moyes doesn't rate Fergies recommendation why should we?

Headshot

RGDATA! wrote: »

Might have had something to do with Fergie's recommendation, not that that seems to count for much for some of you.

Nope not to me anyway.

SlickRic

if anyone was in doubt.

David Moyes confirms "Wayne will be okay for Saturday" after clashing shins with Danny Welbeck in training.

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

You are right - we can only make a definitive judgement when he is sacked, or wins the league/champions league.

However, I would say he has done absolutely nothing so far to put to bed any of the concerns people had over his appointment in the first place.

Could he sign the players we need?
Would his training methods suit a club like United?
Would he adapt his tactics as required?

It is, of course, very early days, but every question mark over him from his appointment still exists - both on and off the field.

To be fair to him he has made quite a big difference in terms of prizing possession since he has come to United. His Everton teams weren't great at that and that was a very big concern for me, but at United his style in that regard has changed quite a bit. It is possible that that is just down to the players' own attitude, although it looks to me, at the least, like he has bought into it.

Still loads of other improvements he needs to make of course.

RGDATA!

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Fergie recommended that he keep the staff in place - and Moyes ignored that. So if Moyes doesn't rate Fergies recommendation why should we?

That's just asinine. You honestly deduct from that that Moyes has changed some of the staff doesn't rate Fergie's recommendation? So he keeps meeting with him to ignore what he said? In any case I don't remember reading/hearing Fergie make any pronouncement that the new manager shouldn't change any staff.

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

To be fair to him he has made quite a big difference in terms of prizing possession since he has come to United. His Everton teams weren't great at that and that was a very big concern for me, but at United his style in that regard has changed quite a bit. It is possible that that is just down to the players' own attitude, although it looks to me, at the least, like he has bought into it.

Still loads of other improvements he needs to make of course.

IMO we have been playing a lot of quick ball direct to the forward like this season - looking to get the ball forward quickly. Don't see us prizing possession to be honest.

Giggsy11

Pro. F wrote: »

That comment by Kryo really stuck out for me too. There is something seriously wrong with this team in the final third this season. There have been a good few spells of dominating possession, but it breaks down badly in the final third. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the idea that the players aren't getting close enough to support is the best I've heard.

It might be that Moyes is asking them to cover too much ground when defending and so they don't have the energy or confidence to get into the right positions when attacking. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed soon or we're going nowhere.

Edit: Slick's comment about Moyes getting the team to push 10 yards up the pitch might solve this problem. Sacchi would approve of that

Bold part is what I believe is the problem. Also maybe the choice of players. Not building up Kagawa but when you see him play he makes off the ball movement and also he will be near the player with ball at his feet, so he offers that option most of the time in the final third.

Our general play is someone from midfield makes a decent pass forward and the player who receives the ball is all alone with 2-3 players covering him. Fellaini and Carrick will be deep in the midfield so pass will be a backward pass, Valencia hugs the line so the pass should be a long pass, Young is similar just on the opposite flank, most of the time player on the ball will be Rooney and the other forward is between 2 CBs with no option to pass. Team's collective movement is 0, when you compare it to Bayern and their movement all the time it makes our team look like a pub team.

We used to have a great movement on wings with Scholes spreading the play and releasing them but now we don't even have someone to do that. As good as Carrick is, he is no Scholes in picking up such a pass.

Problem is the player in possession won't have a player to pass, so us playing quick passing game will never happen unless something changes big time. Also the only time we play that type of game is when Rooney, Nani, Kagawa played close to each other forming nice little triangle.

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

haven't we?

We have seen him for 10 years as Everton manager - we have seen his approach with them to transfers, playing style and training. If he doesn't employ a different style at United to that which he used previously, then why can't we use the 10 previous years of his career as some sort of basis for assessment?

That only works if you accept that there is some sort of equivalence between Everton and United. There's not though.

Mitch Connor

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

That only works if you accept that there is some sort of equivalence between Everton and United. There's not though.

Can you explain that please?

My point is that if you don't see any difference between Moyes' approach at Everton and at United, you can certainly use his time at Everton as a measure of him now.

If there is no equivalence between United and Everton, as you say, then there not being any change to how Moyes' approaches his job is surely an issue.

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain that please?

My point is that if you don't see any difference between Moyes' approach at Everton and at United, you can certainly use his time at Everton as a measure of him now.

If there is no equivalence between United and Everton, as you say, then there not being any change to how Moyes' approaches his job is surely an issue.

People use his record over ten years at Everton as a stick to beat him with, the fact that he didn't win any silverware, the type of tactics he employed, and so on.

I don't think this is valid because Everton is not equivalent to United. The resources and the players available or attainable are not the same. Playing stylish football and winning silverware with Everton would be a pretty unrealistic expectation to have of any manager, and I would have thought most of us would be in agreement on that.

Based on their revenues, he had them finishing well in the league over the last decade. At worst roughly where they should have finished, and often above that.

If he can bring the same level of relative success to United, then he will win things. I don't think we have seen anywhere near enough to say whether or not he is going to be able to do that.

CSF

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Based on their revenues, he had them finishing well in the league over the last decade. At worst roughly where they should have finished, and often above that.

I think you should re-examine where he finished each season with Everton.

Headshot

Wigan and swansea say other wise

Ordinary man

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Bold part is what I believe is the problem. Also maybe the choice of players. Not building up Kagawa but when you see him play he makes off the ball movement and also he will be near the player with ball at his feet, so he offers that option most of the time in the final third.

Our general play is someone from midfield makes a decent pass forward and the player who receives the ball is all alone with 2-3 players covering him. Fellaini and Carrick will be deep in the midfield so pass will be a backward pass, Valencia hugs the line so the pass should be a long pass, Young is similar just on the opposite flank, most of the time player on the ball will be Rooney and the other forward is between 2 CBs with no option to pass. Team's collective movement is 0, when you compare it to Bayern and their movement all the time it makes our team look like a pub team.

We used to have a great movement on wings with Scholes spreading the play and releasing them but now we don't even have someone to do that. As good as Carrick is, he is no Scholes in picking up such a pass.

Problem is the player in possession won't have a player to pass, so us playing quick passing game will never happen unless something changes big time. Also the only time we play that type of game is when Rooney, Nani, Kagawa played close to each other forming nice little triangle.

Very good points. When the wingers stretch the play, there is too much space in the middle and only rooney to really carry the ball there. Kagawa, rooney and nani should all be in there and allow the full backs to give the width. It's no use getting the ball out wide for crosses if there is only rvp to aim for

Maximus Alexander

CSF wrote: »

I think you should re-examine where he finished each season with Everton.

Should I?

2011-12:

Revenue - 8th
League position - 7th

2010-11:

Revenue - 9th
League position - 7th

2009-10:

Revenue - 8th
League position - 8th

2008-09:

Revenue - 8th
League position - 5th

2007-08:

Revenue - 8th
League position - 5th

2006-07:

Revenue - Not clear, but at most 7th
League position - 6th

There you go, re-examined.

kryogen

Love it!

He did finish pretty much on a par with his wage budget though

bucketybuck

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Our general play is someone from midfield makes a decent pass forward and the player who receives the ball is all alone with 2-3 players covering him.

I noted this in the match thread, but Van Persie was horribly isolated last night. The majority of the balls into him were passes longer than 20 yards at chest height or higher, and as he battled for them he would many times have been the only United player in camera focus.

It was a criminal use of a goalscorer like Van Persie, might as well of had Andy Carroll up there.

Mitch Connor

Firstly - Swansea, Wigan and a few other sides have shown that playing good football doest need a massive budget. Martinez, with Everton, has them playing nicer football than Moyes did.

Secondly - if we take what you say to be true - if we don't see Moyes adapt the football he wants his team to play, then surely the way Everton played was his choice rather than a constraint placed upon him - it just happened that it matched what he could reasonably achieve.

If Moyes has us training and playing the same way Everton did - then why the fook could you not use his time and experiences and tactics at everton as a basis for judgement on him? Two of Moyes' top targets this summer - Fellaini and Baines - the two players key to how he had Everton playing.

Mitch Connor

bucketybuck wrote: »

I noted this in the match thread, but Van Persie was horribly isolated last night. The majority of the balls into him were passes longer than 20 yards at chest height or higher, and as he battled for them he would many times have been the only United player in camera focus.

It was a criminal use of a goalscorer like Van Persie, might as well of had Andy Carroll up there.

Very similar to his use of Jelivic at Everton - or any other striker - isloated a lot of the time. Another example of his approach and tactics at Everton being employed at United rather than adapting to the quality and attributes of the players at his disposal.

kryogen

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Very similar to his use of Jelivic at Everton - or any other striker - isloated a lot of the time. Another example of his approach and tactics at Everton being employed at United rather than adapting to the quality and attributes of the players at his disposal.

Cant blame him soley for that, we have been playing that while a while now. RVP was often isolated last year too.

Vic Vinegar

Six United players called up to England squad for upcoming qualifiers.

Jones, Smalling, Carrick, Cleverley, Rooney, Welbeck.

Knowing Hodgson, Carrick won't play at all anyway so little chance of him coming back injured.

Mitch Connor

kryogen wrote: »

Cant blame him soley for that, we have been playing that while a while now. RVP was often isolated last year too.

problems with our play and tactics now are his responsibility.

Maximus Alexander

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Firstly - Swansea, Wigan and a few other sides have shown that playing good football doest need a massive budget. Martinez, with Everton, has them playing nicer football than Moyes did.

Secondly - if we take what you say to be true - if we don't see Moyes adapt the football he wants his team to play, then surely the way Everton played was his choice rather than a constraint placed upon him - it just happened that it matched what he could reasonably achieve.

If Moyes has us training and playing the same way Everton did - then why the fook could you not use his time and experiences and tactics at everton as a basis for judgement on him? Two of Moyes' top targets this summer - Fellaini and Baines - the two players key to how he had Everton playing.

The fact that Swansea have been a revelation and have played way above expectations doesn't, in any way, reflect badly on Moyes and I'm really not sure what your point is.

The fact that Wigan managed to go on a once-off freak run in the F.A. Cup which might have contributed to getting them relegated doesn't say anything about Moyes either. I don't know how we can call football that leads to relegation "good football".

CSF

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Should I?

2011-12:

Revenue - 8th
League position - 7th

2010-11:

Revenue - 9th
League position - 7th

2009-10:

Revenue - 8th
League position - 8th

2008-09:

Revenue - 8th
League position - 5th

2007-08:

Revenue - 8th
League position - 5th

2006-07:

Revenue - Not clear, but at most 7th
League position - 6th

There you go, re-examined.

That is about half a decade.

Giggsy11

bucketybuck wrote: »

I noted this in the match thread, but Van Persie was horribly isolated last night. The majority of the balls into him were passes longer than 20 yards at chest height or higher, and as he battled for them he would many times have been the only United player in camera focus.

It was a criminal use of a goalscorer like Van Persie, might as well of had Andy Carroll up there.

Yeah, probably for the first time he played as lone striker for us and it was so clear that he was isolated completely. He had few moments where he dropped deeper but we didnt put a pall to him in dangerous position at all.

Mitch Connor

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

The fact that Swansea have been a revelation and have played way above expectations doesn't, in any way, reflect badly on Moyes and I'm really not sure what your point is.

The fact that Wigan managed to go on a once-off freak run in the F.A. Cup which might have contributed to getting them relegated doesn't say anything about Moyes either. I don't know how we can call football that leads to relegation "good football".

So, if we assume you are correct and Everton couldn't have played or set up any differently under any other manager and achieved similar success with brighter more expressive football - deal with the second part of discussion.

If Everton were somehow forced to play as they did but Moyes doesn't change from that style at United - then it would appear Moyes' style of play IS what Everton played.

If that is the case, then how everton played, the approach to training and the length of time it took to make transfers are all issues we can look to and compare against United.

Simply put - I think it is extremely stupid to say how Everton approached aspects of football under Moyes can't be used as a viewpoint for United under Moyes.

SlickRic

super line from Hodgson.

...on Ashley Young omission: "I don't like to use the word 'dropped'. He just fell outside the 23, I guess ..."

Cantona's Collars

bucketybuck wrote: »

I noted this in the match thread, but Van Persie was horribly isolated last night. The majority of the balls into him were passes longer than 20 yards at chest height or higher, and as he battled for them he would many times have been the only United player in camera focus.

It was a criminal use of a goalscorer like Van Persie, might as well of had Andy Carroll up there.

Fairly typical of our play in Europe away from home over the last couple of seasons,last night was no different.

FFS,we are Manchester United! Teams are supposed to be scared of us not the other way around.
Flicked over to the City game to check the score last night and the commentator mentioned to Neville how in his time at United he was used to playing teams off the park & having almost all the posession.We don't see that too much these days.

Mitch Connor

zerks wrote: »

Fairly typical of our play in Europe away from home over the last couple of seasons,last night was no different.

FFS,we are Manchester United! Teams are supposed to be scared of us not the other way around.
Flicked over to the City game to check the score last night and the commentator mentioned to Neville how in his time at United he was used to playing teams off the park & having almost all the posession.We don't see that too much these days.

In fairness to Moyes - back in the day we had a midfield with Giggs, Keane, Scholes and Beckham.

The quality of our first 11 is seriously poor in comparison to Fergie's best teams - and that is down to Fergie more so than Moyes. Moyes/Woodward f'd up this summer, but Fergie has been allowing the first 11 quality to deteriorate significantly over the last 5 years.

The vast majority of our signings can be view as very good squad additions - we have seldom bought a significantly top class player.

We have allowed other teams to take the better talents we should have been interested in and moaned about value - while spending half a billion on debt repayments.

sReq | uTeK

BloodBath wrote: »

We were very lucky to be honest. They should have had a penalty and the goal we got was very soft. Outside of that we had no other good chances. While the game wasn't easy it's not exactly one of the big 3 we were playing or anything close to it.

While your view is a lot more balanced and sensible than mine I think blind faith that we will still finish in the top 3 based on what we have seen so far is a bit optimistic.

Someone would call it blind faith, others would call it logic, a title winning side that finished 12? points ahead of the crop shouldn't slip outside of the top 3 due to a change in manager especially when others around them are in similar transitional phases. I'm also basing this on appointing a manger that has been in contention for 4th spot on numerous occasions with a significantly weaker side in Everton, the squad as an abundance of winners and that should eventually start to shine through when Moyes knows his best 11.