Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 mod warning post#7259

Beasty

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's hard to have a decent discussion when one side of the discussions' opinions seem out of touch with reality.

Leave it out - final warning

mewe

DM-ICE wrote: »

Carrick was obviously fantastic last season and a key player in a successful team, end of. More than worthy of his place in a team voted on by his fellow professionals.

The best thing about Carrick is his interceptions. I remember watchin a game last season and Johnny Giles giving out about him at the end of the game,how he wasn't a proper midfielder,and bein very annoyed because in this parcticular game i thought he was brilliant and did a lot regardless of him not bein the all action style midfielder.

That's the real pity about this Summer. I know it's fantasy talk at this stage but with a Fabregas type player beside him plus a Modric,our midfield could be sublime.

ericzeking

Wrt Michael Carrick, I've always been a massive fan and had many a the joust with my Stevie G worshipping mate about the merits of him as a player and his more controlled style as opposed to running around alot but I don't think he was that much better last season than he was in previous seasons. I'm pretty sure the stats support that.

For many years many united fans hadn't much time for him but last season it became fashionable to say he was unreal.

Great player though. I think his place on the team of the year was well justified for the role he performed for us as we waltzed to the title as opposed to obvious individual brilliance.

DM_7

Pro. F wrote: »

Yacob, Cork and Britton were all better than Carrick as defensive central midfielders last season. So I would definitely have any of them ahead of him in a team of the season. Carrick is still wildly overrated by the majority who don't understand how important close control is for central midfielders. It's always been the same with CMs in England..

Close control is less important that you make out for a player to be highly successful and effective playing in England.

And I counter your sweeping statement about people overrating him by saying it still surprises me how you let a fault in his game overshadow all the other things he does superbly.

DM_7

ericzeking wrote: »

Wrt Michael Carrick, I've always been a massive fan and had many a the joust with my Stevie G worshipping mate about the merits of him as a player and his more controlled style as opposed to running around alot but I don't think he was that much better last season than he was in previous seasons. I'm pretty sure the stats support that.

For many years many united fans hadn't much time for him but last season it became fashionable to say he was unreal.

Great player though. I think his place on the team of the year was well justified for the role he performed for us as we waltzed to the title as opposed to obvious individual brilliance.

I am not so sure about the idea he wasn't better last season that others.

When he joined first he didn't have the responsibility that we saw SAF put in him the last two seasons. With Hargreaves finished, Fletcher sick, Scholes too old to run around and what SAF called a lack of value he took on the responsibility of holding everything together. He adapted his game from how he would have played earlier in his career and I would think its his importance to the team that changed a lot of peoples opinion.

Before taking on that role he wasn't as important, didn't have a huge influence on the side and with other good options available people had genuine reasons for a meh attitude towards him.

Rayne Wooney

Carrick's bad start this season seems to be tarnishing how good he was last year, he was vital to our team winning the league, even with partners such as Giggs, Clev and Ando, and he was righty voted into the team of the year by his peers.

His weaknesses are highlighted against top teams in Europe who pressure high, but you can't take away how good he was in the league last season which is why he's in that team.

DM_7

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Carrick's bad start this season seems to be tarnishing how good he was last year, he was vital to our team winning the league, even with partners such as Giggs, Clev and Ando, and he was righty voted into the team of the year by his peers.

His weaknesses are highlighted against top teams in Europe who pressure high, but you can't take away how good he was in the league last season which is why he's in that team.

SAF gave out about him in summer 2012 for starting slow
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/9416956/Manchester-United-manager-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-claims-Michael-Carrick-holds-key-to-clubs-success.html

Season before last it was a few months before he played regularly in midfield and last season his first full one as a vital/key player.

Pro. F

DM-ICE wrote: »

Close control is less important that you make out for a player to be highly successful and effective playing in England.

And I counter your sweeping statement about people overrating him by saying it still surprises me how you let a fault in his game overshadow all the other things he does superbly.

I do agree that a CM won't get shown up for lacking close control as much in England as elsewhere. There are lots of poor central midfielders in England and so it doesn't stand out so much. But the fact that Carrick is playing in England, where he can get away with it more, doesn't change the fact that he does have that flaw in his game. And because of that important flaw there are other, better, CMs who should be in the team of the year ahead of him.

Some faults can't be overlooked when judging how good a player is. I wouldn't put a centre back in a team of the season who was shít in the air, just like I wouldn't put in a central midfielder who has weak close control. There aren't enough interceptions and flashy passes in the world to make up for the fact he can't control a game when the opposition are pressing.

lordgoat

Nuts102 wrote: »

How do you kick on when you haven't played a minute on the field. Considering how poor our wingers are it's stupidity he has not played.

That's actually a fair point, but if he can't break into the first team and is too good for the reserves (which he easily is) then a loan is the best option.

adox wrote: »

BloodBath you never did reply to my "bet" offer?

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's hard to have a decent discussion when one side of the discussions' opinions seem out of touch with reality.

Some of the stuff posted is akin to one of us going into the Chelsea thread and saying Mata was dropped rightly on the back of his terrible season last. It's just strange.

So glad I missed the last 3 pages. Wow. wumow even.

DM_7

Similar to what was discussed here this week,

Be more ambitious and find rewards

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/04/david-moyes-manchester-united-sunderland

Paul Tergat

Well the last couple of days posts were fun to read...

Rayne Wooney

Someone other than zerks start the match thread this week, the last 4 he's started we've lost 3 drew 1.

Gringo180

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would take Rafael at right back. Would certainly take Vidic. Evra at LB over Gibbs too, imo.

Their midfield sh1ts all over ours, but I would say attack, defence (overall) and GK are better at United - at least when on some form of form.

Wtf man?? Evra over Gibbs and Rafael over Sagna hahahhaa did you not see your full backs get absolutely murdered against Shaktar especially Evra. Only defender I would take at Arsenal would be Vidic.

bucketybuck

Pro. F wrote: »

I wouldn't put a centre back in a team of the season who was shít in the air

Then you don't understand what the team of the year is.

bucketybuck

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wtf man?? Evra over Gibbs and Rafael over Sagna hahahhaa did you not see your full backs get absolutely murdered against Shaktar especially Evra. Only defender I would take at Arsenal would be Vidic.

The only Arsenal defender I would have at United would be Sol Campbell.

Bugger, he's gone isn't he? Tony Adams then. Wait, he's retired. Damn, I can't think of any other Arsenal defenders I would have at United.

Mitch Connor

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wtf man?? Evra over Gibbs and Rafael over Sagna hahahhaa did you not see your full backs get absolutely murdered against Shaktar especially Evra. Only defender I would take at Arsenal would be Vidic.

Fair enough.

I disagree with you.

Rayne Wooney

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wtf man?? Evra over Gibbs and Rafael over Sagna hahahhaa did you not see your full backs get absolutely murdered against Shaktar especially Evra. Only defender I would take at Arsenal would be Vidic.

Some supporters seem to have a bit of vertigo from the high heights their team currently sits.

Rafael and Evra are better fullbacks than Sagna and Gibbs. I don't know why this conversation is taking place, it's blindingly obvious and basing it on one game is laughable.

Backstreet Moyes

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wtf man?? Evra over Gibbs and Rafael over Sagna hahahhaa did you not see your full backs get absolutely murdered against Shaktar especially Evra. Only defender I would take at Arsenal would be Vidic.

Their is not 1 Arsenal defender would get near United's defence. Maybe i am missing something but i don't remember Evra getting murdered. Also if your using one game to back up your point it says volumes about your argument.

Gavlor

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wtf man?? Evra over Gibbs and Rafael over Sagna hahahhaa did you not see your full backs get absolutely murdered against Shaktar especially Evra. Only defender I would take at Arsenal would be Vidic.

Evra over Gibbs any day. Nothing between rafael and sagna, both are fairly dodgy

Gringo180

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Some supporters seem to have a bit of vertigo from the high heights their team currently sits.

Rafael and Evra are better fullbacks than Sagna and Gibbs. I don't know why this conversation is taking place, it's blindingly obvious and basing it on one game is laughable.

I will give you Evra in his prime but im talking about current form. But Rafael better than Sagna??? Am I hearing you right??? Sagna is one of the best full backs in world football.

Gringo180

Nuts102 wrote: »

Their is not 1 Arsenal defender would get near United's defence. Maybe i am missing something but i don't remember Evra getting murdered. Also if your using one game to back up your point it says volumes about your argument.

How do you make that out? We had a much better defensive record than yous last season.

Gavlor

Gringo180 wrote: »

Sagna is one of the best full backs in world football.

In that case I'm dusting off my boots

Gringo180

Nuts102 wrote: »

Their is not 1 Arsenal defender would get near United's defence. Maybe i am missing something but i don't remember Evra getting murdered. Also if your using one game to back up your point it says volumes about your argument.

Srna crucified Evra he other night he got in behind him a countless number of times and against a top European side they would of punished yous for his poor defensive positioning.

Mitch Connor

Gringo180 wrote: »

How do you make that out? We had a much better defensive record than yous last season.

Much? Really?

We conceded 6 goals more than you - with 5 of those coming vs West Brom on the last day when our players were hungover and thick.

But yeah.... MUCH better.

RasTa

Who the **** is Gibbs

Rayne Wooney

Gringo180 wrote: »

I will give you Evra in his prime but im talking about current form. But Rafael better than Sagna??? Am I hearing you right??? Sagna is one of the best full backs in world football.

That made me laugh alright.

Mitch Connor

in fact - in the first half of the season we conceded 7 more than Arsenal. In the second half of the season we conceded 1 less. Including the West Brom Game.

But yeah.... MUCH Better.

Gringo180

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

That made me laugh alright.

I recall a certain Bayern Munich being interested in him a few years back, a club like that doesnt come sniffing unless your one of the best around in your position.

Gringo180

Mitch Connor wrote: »

in fact - in the first half of the season we conceded 7 more than Arsenal. In the second half of the season we conceded 1 less. Including the West Brom Game.

But yeah.... MUCH Better.

Dress it up all you like, the fact is our defense was stronger than yours last season.

Mitch Connor

Gringo180 wrote: »

I recall a certain Bayern Munich being interested in him a few years back, a club like that doesnt come sniffing unless your one of the best around in your position.

Gary Breen was linked with Barcelona and Inter Milan.

Gringo180

RasTa wrote: »

Who the **** is Gibbs

He is better than Buttner to be fair, who is probably one of the most horriffic defenders I have ever seen.

Mitch Connor

Gringo180 wrote: »

Dress it up all you like, the fact is our defense was stronger than yours last season.

Yeah - right. whatever.

Mitch Connor

Gringo180 wrote: »

He is better than Buttner to be fair, who is probably one of the most horriffic defenders I have ever seen.

And hernandez is better than Bendtner.

What is your point?

Your first choice LB is better than a player none of us rate? Congrats. What a barometer you set for your team.

Rayne Wooney

Gringo180 wrote: »

I recall a certain Bayern Munich being interested in him a few years back, a club like that doesnt come sniffing unless your one of the best around in your position.

Reported by Bild, the German version of Sky Sports for making stuff up.

Backstreet Moyes

Gringo180 wrote: »

I recall a certain Bayern Munich being interested in him a few years back, a club like that doesnt come sniffing unless your one of the best around in your position.

They tried to sign Baines also amazing he is still at Everton. If your using speculated interest in a player from a few years back too big him up it really makes your argument look bad.

JRant

Gringo180 wrote: »

I will give you Evra in his prime but im talking about current form. But Rafael better than Sagna??? Am I hearing you right??? Sagna is one of the best full backs in world football.

Evra is an absolute liability in defence, great going forward but he doesn't half know how to leave a huge gapping hole at the back. I wouldn't have him or Gibbs anywhere near my team.

Sagna is a good player but world class he is not. Rafeal was one of the best full-backs in the league last year and is only just back into the team after a lay-off.

In all seriousness there's not one Arsenal central defender that would get a game for us.

Timmyctc

Gringo180 wrote: »

I will give you Evra in his prime but im talking about current form. But Rafael better than Sagna??? Am I hearing you right??? Sagna is one of the best full backs in world football.

I'm sorry but I think the other posters in the thread here skimmed over this one a bit too lightly. "Bacary Sagna" and "best full backs in world football" don't go in the same sentence, unless your sentence is "Its laughable to think Bacary Sagna is one of the best full backs in world football".

Rayne Wooney

I'd take an in form Kos to partner Vidic, he's a good player when he wants to be

Gringo180

Mitch Connor wrote: »

And hernandez is better than Bendtner.

What is your point?

Your first choice LB is better than a player none of us rate? Congrats. What a barometer you set for your team.

I was merely replying to a smart comment with one of my own. Hernandez now there is a player I would love at Arsenal, give him half a chance and he will score very under rated player I can see him heading off to a big club in Spain if he doesnt get more game time.

Gringo180

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'd take an in form Kos to partner Vidic, he's a good player when he wants to be

Thank you. Koscielny when on his day is world class, not many players have the accolade of having Lionel Messi in his pocket over 2 legs.

Rayne Wooney

Realistically there's 3 players at Arsenal who'd make it into United's first 11, Ozil, Walcott and Wilshere.

4 if Kos is in form which is a rare occurrence.

Timmyctc

Gringo180 wrote: »

Thank you. Koscielny when on his day is world class, not many players have the accolade of having Lionel Messi in his pocket over 2 legs.

Wes ****ing Brown has that accolade ffs. Koscienly on his day is very good. But not world class. Unless you have a different definition of world class than most others.

Gringo180

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Realistically there's 3 players at Arsenal who'd make it into United's first 11, Ozil, Walcott and Wilshere.

Thats one of the most biased opinions I have ever read on here man, honestly. Cazorla and Ramsey says hello!

Backstreet Moyes

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Realistically there's 3 players at Arsenal who'd make it into United's first 11, Ozil, Walcott and Wilshere.

4 if Kos is in form which is a rare occurrence.

Ha as a United fan you don't think Wishire or Ramsey would get into a United 11.

JRant

Gringo180 wrote: »

I was merely replying to a smart comment with one of my own. Hernandez now there is a player I would love at Arsenal, give him half a chance and he will score very under rated player I can see him heading off to a big club in Spain if he doesnt get more game time.

The only 2 people who seem to under-rate him would be Fergie and now Moyes. Everyone else can see what a little gem he is.

Maximus Alexander

Gringo180 wrote: »

Thats one of the most biased opinions I have ever read on here man, honestly. Cazorla and Ramsey says hello!

You don't read much on here.

Rayne Wooney

Gringo180 wrote: »

Thats one of the most biased opinions I have ever read on here man, honestly. Cazorla and Ramsey says hello!

I changed it to 4 if Kos is in form.

How would Ramsey and Cazorla fit in? I said first 11. So DDG, Raf, Kos, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Wilshere, Ozil, Rooney, Walcott/Nani and RVP. That's 11 and none of the other Arsenal players would get in there.

Rayne Wooney

Nuts102 wrote: »

Ha as a United fan you don't think Wishire or Ramsey would get into a United 11.

I said Wilshere?

Mitch Connor

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'd take an in form Kos to partner Vidic, he's a good player when he wants to be

I'd keep an in form Smalling - going to be a cracking player imo, already is.

I don't think the Arsenal players are bad players - just wouldn't spend money o them to replace what we already have, they certainly aren't an upgrade imo - though I can see an argument for similar levels overall.

Sagna probably a bit more solid defensively than Raf, but Raf better on the attack and not enough of a difference defensively between them.

Would say Kos and Mertersaker are their first choice and on form this season they are better (as a pairing) than our first choice of Rio and Vidic, as Rio has been poor in a few games.

On a pairing I would prob go Kos and Vidic alright.

Evra vs Gibbs at LB? Personally I'd go Evra right now, but for next two or three seasons, Gibbs. I wouldnt want us to replace Evra with Gibbs though. Tough call between the two, imo.

At worst/best (depending on your perspective) I'd say it would be 2 each form United and Arsenal, imo. Would go 3 - 1 to United on my choice though.

I simply don't agree that the Arsenal defence is MUCH better than ours as Gringo said - thats bollox imo. I do feel last seasons stats back that up too. Our defending, all over the pitch, was shocking first half of last year. Once we got Vidic back and started actually trying not to concede our records were well matched, including the WB game which was an infuriating joke.

For the rest of the team I'd have DDG in goals. RVP up top, Ozil off him with Carrick, Wilshere, Cazorla and... i don't know - none of the remaining options for right side fill me with confidence. Walcott or Nani I suppose. Nani if on form, Walcott if not.

Gringo180

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I changed it to 4 if Kos is in form.

How would Ramsey and Cazorla fit in? I said first 11. So DDG, Raf, Kos, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Wilshere, Ozil, Rooney, Walcott/Nani and RVP. That's 11 and none of the other Arsenal players would get in there.

Take Carrick and Wilshere out and replace with Ramsey and Santi.