Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 mod warning post#7259

JRant

Nuts102 wrote: »

He is not going to learn sitting on the bench or playing out of position.

Agreed, however the best place for him to learn how to tackle is in training. If he keeps going into tackles the same way then it's only a matter of time before he'll do a cruciate.

adox

gosplan wrote: »

Lol at the stats from the last 12 months backing it up.

Again, I'm not saying that Vidic and Ferdinand across their careers haven't been better, just that right now, Mert & Kos are more solid.

I know I won't get much reality here though. No way do Evra and Rafael make that team. Is Rafael even first choice? Have you all stopped wanting Evra gone just because someone from another team dared to say he was past it?

Rafael has been among the best if not the best right back in the league the last couple of seasons.


You obviously are the one who needs a dose of reality if you even have to ask if he is first choice.

Donnielighto

gosplan wrote: »

Lol at the stats from the last 12 months backing it up.

Again, I'm not saying that Vidic and Ferdinand across their careers haven't been better, just that right now, Mert & Kos are more solid.

I know I won't get much reality here though. No way do Evra and Rafael make that team. Is Rafael even first choice? Have you all stopped wanting Evra gone just because someone from another team dared to say he was past it?

Mert and kos are better than vid and rio, but a lot of people wouldnt have rio in a utd xi either. Vidic and kos/evans for me depending on form of the 2nd 2. I like mert but he is too similar and not as good as vidic to start.

Donnielighto

JRant wrote: »

Agreed, however the best place for him to learn how to tackle is in training. If he keeps going into tackles the same way then it's only a matter of time before he'll do a cruciate.

Acl or mcl? Most acl are none contact and from turning/stopping motion sideways. Pcl needs a horrific amount of force to rupture.

homerjay2005

this game today is far more important than it should be - huge huge game, im very worried about it, but we should pull through, Sunderland are brutal.

anything less than 3 points and its a disaster.

gosplan

adox wrote: »

Rafael has been among the best if not the best right back in the league the last couple of seasons.


You obviously are the one who needs a dose of reality if you even have to ask if he is first choice.

Ha ha.

28 games last year, maybe 10 the year before.

Frequently dropped or rotated. Often injured.

But yeah among the best if not the best for those two seasons.

Is he injured currently out of curiosity?

Giggsy11

gosplan wrote: »

Man U take it on GK and CF.

Arsensl take the rest of the pitch,

All it takes is a decent start to the league and we have to see ridiculous posts like these.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

It is not possible for a centre back to be shíte in the air and still play well, let alone play better than every other CB in England. That's the bit that you are failing to grasp.

The only way that a CB who is shíte in the air could play the best in England for a season is if the general performance of centre backs had fallen to the level of complete ineptitude. As far as I'm aware that has never happened.


I already addressed the point about Moore and his pace. How about you respond to what I said?

I don't think having an excellent first touch is any more vital to a deep sitting midfielder than being too footed is for a winger or having pace is for a centre half, except for as in the other two cases in a small subset of games.

Carrick's touch is only ever an issue against teams employing a consistent and effective pressing game, of which there are few.

One footed wingers and slow centre halfs are a more appropriate comparison to a deep sitting midfielder with a suspect touch than a CB who is bad in the air by a long way I think, as when playing for a team like United the first three are rarely exploited to a large extent, whereas every team can exploit a CB who can't head the ball well.

It's pretty clear that Carrick was generally excellent last season, (I would have thought most people agree on that, maybe not?) in which case either his touch is not as bad as you are suggesting or it's not as important a factor as you're suggesting. IMO both are true.

Donnielighto

gosplan wrote: »

Lol at the stats from the last 12 months backing it up.

Again, I'm not saying that Vidic and Ferdinand across their careers haven't been better, just that right now, Mert & Kos are more solid.

I know I won't get much reality here though. No way do Evra and Rafael make that team. Is Rafael even first choice? Have you all stopped wanting Evra gone just because someone from another team dared to say he was past it?

Eh most here dont want him gone because he was immense last season. Some (not a large proportion) people were ok with leaving in the summer if a suitable replacement was brought in. A lot of that attitude was also down to fact that his report move was back to Monaco and would have been him leaving as opposed to united looking to sell. Would like him to stay but he owes the club nothing was a common sentiment over the summer.

JRant

gosplan wrote: »

Lol at the stats from the last 12 months backing it up.

Again, I'm not saying that Vidic and Ferdinand across their careers haven't been better, just that right now, Mert & Kos are more solid.

I know I won't get much reality here though. No way do Evra and Rafael make that team. Is Rafael even first choice? Have you all stopped wanting Evra gone just because someone from another team dared to say he was past it?

Merts and Kos look more solid because unlike utd they have a midfield that can actually hold onto the ball for more than 3 passes.
Rafael is a very good player.
I'd have Evra out of the squad completely if it was my call. We'd be better off playing 3 at the back than having him in there.

Rayne Wooney

Liverpool

go top of the league

Stay away from the match thread so lads.

tallaghtmick

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Looking at Liverpool there again winning handy how long does everyone reckon there gonna stay up there winning games and front two scoring freely ?

Does anyone see them as serious challenge this season?

I do, the strike force is unreal, good midfield and solid defence/goalie, although they haven't really been tested and that includes us!

keane2097

I don't think Rafael is anywhere near as good as a lot of people ITT seem to, or else I rate a lot of other RBs way higher than people seem to.

Rafael is very good, but I couldn't see how anyone could out of hand dismiss Sagna as nowhere near as good as him. Pretty sure if I was picking one or the other I'd pick Sagna.

RasTa

I wouldn't even bother arguing with Arsenal fans. Weren't they booing their team off the pitch the last couple of seasons.

adox

gosplan wrote: »

Is he injured currently out of curiosity?

And I'm done.

gosplan

Giggsy11 wrote: »

All it takes is a decent start to the league and we have to see ridiculous posts like these.

Well yeah, a decent 2013 on the whole for the Arsenal back four coupled with a sub par one for United's ageing defence and you'd figure to reevaluate them.

Fairly sensible really.

JRant

Donnielighto wrote: »

Acl or mcl? Most acl are none contact and from turning/stopping motion sideways. Pcl needs a horrific amount of force to rupture.

Either really, if you watch him tackling he leaves himself so exposed. He puts himself into some awful positions when tackling,

gosplan

adox wrote: »

And I'm done.

Genuine question. I'm not doing ff this year but looked at the players and saw he hadn't played yet.

Giggsy11

gosplan wrote: »

Well yeah, a decent 2013 on the whole for the Arsenal back four coupled with a sub par one for United's ageing defence and you'd figure to reevaluate them.

Fairly sensible really.

Year 2013 where we won league easily and couldn't be arsed in the last few games? Yeah that will do. Add to that the ridiculous 5-5 game which wouldn't have happened if we had something to play for.

Blatter

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't think Rafael is anywhere near as good as a lot of people ITT seem to, or else I rate a lot of other RBs way higher than people seem to.

Rafael is very good, but I couldn't see how anyone could out of hand dismiss Sagna as nowhere near as good as him. Pretty sure if I was picking one or the other I'd pick Sagna.

Before Sagna's injury in 2012 I would agree but imo since then he has been inconsistent and never reached his previous heights.

gosplan

RasTa wrote: »

I wouldn't even bother arguing with Arsenal fans. Weren't they booing their team off the pitch the last couple of seasons.

It's debating not arguing.

Why would the reaction of some Arsenal fans have anything to do with talking to me?

Comparing the teams was brought up here, in this thread, not by me!

I'm saying the Arsenal defence has been more solid over the last year and edge it as a unit of 4.

If someone says Vidic individually would make it, if course I'll agree. However if people say that Rafael based on 40 games over two seasons has been the best of the league, then I'm going to point out that it's rubbish.

This thread was hugely critical of an ageing Evra last season too, so excuse me if I think that the in-form, younger Gibbs might shade him.

Hank Scorpio

Evra was praised last season, he was in great form like his first couple of seasons. It was the previous season he was poor when City won the league

gosplan

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Year 2013 where we won league easily and couldn't be arsed in the last few games? Yeah that will do. Add to that the ridiculous 5-5 game which wouldn't have happened if we had something to play for.

Well thankfully you've something to play for now, let the awesome shut-outs begin.

Giggsy11

gosplan wrote: »

It's debating not arguing.

Why would the reaction of some Arsenal fans have anything to do with talking to me?

Comparing the teams was brought up here, in this thread, not by me!

I'm saying the Arsenal defence has been more solid over the last year and edge it as a unit of 4.

If someone says Vidic individually would make it, if course I'll agree. However if people say that Rafael based on 40 games over two seasons has been the best of the league, then I'm going to point out that it's rubbish.

This thread was hugely critical of an ageing Evra last season too, so excuse me if I think that the in-form, younger Gibbs might shade him.

Is called hypocrisy. Ageing Evra but experienced Sagna, youngster giggs but inexperienced Rafael.

Carry on.

keane2097

Blatter wrote: »

Before Sagna's injury in 2012 I would agree but imo since then he has been inconsistent and never reached his previous heights.

I thought he was good after xmas last season. Admittedly haven't seen much soccer this season yet for various reasons so don't know whether he's carried on.

Arsenal as a whole were brilliant in the second half of last season.

Giggsy11

gosplan wrote: »

Well thankfully you've something to play for now, let the awesome shut-outs begin.

After playing City away, Liverpool away, Chelsea at home we have conceded 8 goals and Arsenal have conceded 7.

Danye

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't think Rafael is anywhere near as good as a lot of people ITT seem to, or else I rate a lot of other RBs way higher than people seem to.

Rafael is very good, but I couldn't see how anyone could out of hand dismiss Sagna as nowhere near as good as him. Pretty sure if I was picking one or the other I'd pick Sagna.

Couldn't agree more. I think people are being biased because he's our player.

Honestly, Zabaleta is the best RB in the league. I'd rate Coleman above Raf. Then there's Sagna, Raf and Walker and Johnson.

keane2097

Danye wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. I think people are being biased because he's our player.

Honestly, Zabaleta is the best RB in the league. I'd rate Coleman above Raf. Then there's Sagna, Raf and Walker and Johnson.

I don't think people necessarily overrate Rafael, but I find myself disagreeing with people about RBs from other clubs a lot in here.

The second sentence I agree totally with, except maybe Glen Johnson being a touch below the rest again. Think he's a bit more suspect defensively than the rest.

Zabaleta best RB in the league by a margin alright IMO.

gosplan

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Is called hypocrisy. Ageing Evra but experienced Sagna, youngster giggs but inexperienced Rafael.

Carry on.

I never mentioned Sagna.

Rafael is not and has never been nailed on as RB, that's the opinion of Utd's managers, not me.

Giggsy11

United Mancunian ‏@UtdMancunian 42s
Man Utd: De Gea, Rafael, Evra, Vidic, Jones, Carrick, Cleverley, Januzaj, Nani, Rooney, van Persie

That's a great ****ing team. Would have loved to see Kagawa but Januzaj starting is really great. Nice confidence boost for him.

Danye

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't think people necessarily overrate Rafael, but I find myself disagreeing with people about RBs from other clubs a lot in here.

The second sentence I agree totally with, except maybe Glen Johnson being a touch below the rest again. Think he's a bit more suspect defensively than the rest.

Zabaleta best RB in the league by a margin alright IMO.

I think they do. People on here think he's the best RB in the PL. He's still young and naive defensively and can be rash at times.

I use to think Johnson was one of the dumbest defenders around and very poor defensively but I do think he's come on leaps and bounds.

Backstreet Moyes

I actually can't believe how people still don't realise how good Rafael is. Himself and Zabaleta were the standout full backs last season. I am not going to be biased Zabaleta had an outstanding season and was the best rb in the league last season. Rafael is so important to the team he is our best attacking outlet down the right and his defending has improved a good bit. Actually can't believe he has played 128 games for a club like United at only 23 he has been around a long time.

Giggsy11

gosplan wrote: »

I never mentioned Sagna.

Rafael is not and has never been nailed on as RB, that's the opinion of Utd's managers, not me.

Rafael played almost all games and except when he was injured. Also you can't blame manager when you have such a huge squad rather than a paper thin one. Everyone deserves their chances. So ManUtd rotate their players more than Arsenal.

Edit: You didn't say that, but replace the players name like I did and you will find Sagna and Evra in exact same positions.

The_Kew_Tour

To say only 2 players from our first team are good enough for arsenal is laughable.

It gets funnier when you think about it more and more

JRant

Danye wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. I think people are being biased because he's our player.

Honestly, Zabaleta is the best RB in the league. I'd rate Coleman above Raf. Then there's Sagna, Raf and Walker and Johnson.

Zabaleta is an extremely underrated player, he really is a top class operator. I'd still have Coleman as the best RB last season but that has an element of green tinted glasses about it if i'm being honest.

Giggsy11

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

To say only 2 players from our first team are good enough for arsenal is laughable.

It gets funnier when you think about it more and more

And even funnier when we are talking about players like Vidic, Rooney not making their team.

This is the team that celebrated 4th placed finish more than team that won CL.

gosplan

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

To say only 2 players from our first team are good enough for arsenal is laughable.

It gets funnier when you think about it more and more

Never said that.

Rooney, RVP, DDG, Vidic nailed on. Arguments to be had about others.

What's laughable is how no-one can stick to the point at hand without resorting to 'lol' or 'it's laughable'.

Read my original posts, read what I said. It is correct.

Danye

Good to see Moyes reads this forum! He must of seen my post about Jones getting game time at centre half preferably alongside Vidic.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't think having an excellent first touch is any more vital to a deep sitting midfielder than being too footed is for a winger or having pace is for a centre half, except for as in the other two cases in a small subset of games.

Carrick's touch is only ever an issue against teams employing a consistent and effective pressing game, of which there are few.

One footed wingers and slow centre halfs are a more appropriate comparison to a deep sitting midfielder with a suspect touch than a CB who is bad in the air by a long way I think, as when playing for a team like United the first three are rarely exploited to a large extent, whereas every team can exploit a CB who can't head the ball well.

No, even if a team only presses for a short spell, his lack of close control means he can't relieve the pressure. It's his job to relieve that pressure and he consistently fails at it. It is far less obvious in England where the general standard of central midfielders has always been pitiful but it's still obvious enough when you watch closely.

It doesn't matter if his flaws are rarely exploited (or rarely fully exploited I would say), because we are talking about who are the best defensive central midfielders in the league, not how Carrick can work around his flaws. There are defensively sound central midfielders who have more complete skill sets than Carrick and play better than him.

keane2097 wrote: »

It's pretty clear that Carrick was generally excellent last season, (I would have thought most people agree on that, maybe not?) in which case either his touch is not as bad as you are suggesting or it's not as important a factor as you're suggesting. IMO both are true.

I certainly disagree that Carrick was generally excellent last season. He did a lot of things well but he still had the flaw that is so common with English central midfielders.

If you look at the history of English football you will find a continuous pattern of managers, pundits and fans thinking that their CMs are generally excellent only for them to be shown up as sub standard at their primary job (controlling and using possession) when they meet quality continental and South American opposition. I would say that you are falling into that same trap.

Giggsy11

gosplan wrote: »

Never said that.

Rooney, RVP, DDG, Vidic nailed on. Arguments to be had about others.

What's laughable is how no-one can stick to the point at hand without resorting to 'lol' or 'it's laughable'.

Read my original posts, read what I said. It is correct.

Your OP was GK and CF, rest all are from Arsenal?

Danye

Happy enough with the starting 11 with the exception of Cleverly.

He's not good enough to be be in Man Uniteds first team.

gosplan

Giggsy11 wrote: »

And even funnier when we are talking about players like Vidic, Rooney not making their team.

This is the team that celebrated 4th placed finish more than team that won CL.

Again, who said this?

Is it a thing with Man U fans that slagging is easier than debate?

Giggsy11

Danye wrote: »

Happy enough with the starting 11 with the exception of Cleverly.

He's not good enough to be be in Man Uniteds first team.

We don't have any CMs left now.

adox

Danye wrote: »

Happy enough with the starting 11 with the exception of Cleverly.

He's not good enough to be be in Man Uniteds first team.

Who else would you play there today then, considering you wanted Jones ar CB?

Nolars

Danye wrote: »

Happy enough with the starting 11 with the exception of Cleverly.

He's not good enough to be be in Man Uniteds first team.

I wish he would at least give kagawa a chance instead of cleverly.

Giggsy11

gosplan wrote: »

Again, who said this?

Is it a thing with Man U fans that slagging is easier than debate?

gosplan wrote: »

Man U take it on GK and CF.

Arsensl take the rest of the pitch,

JRant

Giggsy11 wrote: »

United Mancunian ‏@UtdMancunian 42s
Man Utd: De Gea, Rafael, Evra, Vidic, Jones, Carrick, Cleverley, Januzaj, Nani, Rooney, van Persie

That's a great ****ing team. Would have loved to see Kagawa but Januzaj starting is really great. Nice confidence boost for him.

Would it be safe to say that Kags will be gone in January then?

Danye

Giggsy11 wrote: »

We don't have any CMs left now.

I know. But we should of brought some quality in during the summer.

Giggsy11

Nolars wrote: »

I wish he would at least give kagawa a chance instead of cleverly.

Kagawa as a CM?

The_Kew_Tour

gosplan wrote: »

Never said that.

Rooney, RVP, DDG, Vidic nailed on. Arguments to be had about others.

What's laughable is how no-one can stick to the point at hand without resorting to 'lol' or 'it's laughable'.

Read my original posts, read what I said. It is correct.

Ahhhhh

nooooo

you said otherwise