Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 mod warning post#7259

Giggsy11

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Ive said it for years 442 is finished, I got ridiculed last year on here for saying it too.

Still can't believe people are worried about the order in which names are displayed on TV. 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1 doesn't matter if you have players who don't move.

Rayne Wooney

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Ive said it for years 442 is finished, I got ridiculed last year on here for saying it too.

The thing is it worked the last few seasons, although the signs were there that it was becoming less effective, but if it's not broken don't fix it, we didn't have the personnel to change it either. However this season we really needed to start the transition into 4-2-3-1. Look at Liverpool who are reaping the rewards of attacking through the middle, remember they bought Downing and Carroll to play 4-4-2 but they've adapted and look how far they've come.

I've always said it that crossing should always be a secondary resort, if we're finding it hard to break down the defence well then by all means put it out wide and cross it in, but we don't do that, playing it out wide is our plan A and our plan B is to go back to plan A, it's almost the easy way out and laziness from a tactical point of view.

homerjay2005

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

We scored 17 goals compared to 10 so far this season with the same amount conceded.

this time last year we had -

5 points more (15 V 10)
7 goals more (17 V 10)
same goals conceded (9)

for the corresponding 7 fixtures last year that we have played so far (which is a far better barometer IMO to compare things), its even more disappointing (replaced the lowest ranked promoted team palace with lowest relegated team palace) -

we picked up 16 points, scoring 11 goals and conceding only 5. we also picked up 19 points from our corresponding next 7 fixtures last season, to be honest at the moment 4 of those teams are playing better than us right now and if things dont change, i cant see us picking up anything close to 19 points.

realistically, anything less than 16 points here and our title is gone.

Nuri Sahin

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Ive said it for years 442 is finished, I got ridiculed last year on here for saying it too.

I'm not a fan of 4-4-2 exactly, but it can work depending entirely on the personnel especially in midfield and of course, the opposition. You need two mobile midfielders at this stage to play 4-4-2.

tallaghtmick

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

I'm not a fan of 4-4-2 exactly, but it can work depending entirely on the personnel especially in midfield and of course, the opposition. You need two mobile midfielders at this stage to play 4-4-2.

Hopefully January gets us another CM to help.

DM_7

zerks wrote: »

To highlight the problem,just watch how Carrick is playing,he has nobody in front of him showing for the ball to act as the link between him and our forwards and wingers,RVP and Rooney are almost playing as AM's and their potency up front is suffering,how many clear cut chances did RVP get against a poor enough Sunderland team? One!!

Carrick is being forced to pass sideways or back due to lack of movement ahead of him or at best forcing a pass forward which ends up with the ball being lost.Just look at Bayern the other night,they had a full back playing in the DM role and he thrived due to one thing-movement.As it stands,watching United at times is akin to watching somebody playing FIFA for the first time.

Cleverly at least tried to inject some movement and impetus into our play but I'm not sure he's the guy to carry our midfield.Fellaini still seems over-awed to be at the club and is yet to show the form he did at Everton.

Our wingers are so out of form,perhaps it's time for a change of formation,Kagawa has vision,intelligent movement and can get goals but is criminally underused or played out of position in such a rigid formation that his talents are negated.

Perhaps a basic way of showing how little our midfielders contribute in an attacking sense is to look at the Fantasy Football site,our highest scoring mid is Januzaj with 19 points,he got 14 of those yesterday.As I said a basic way of displaying it but very telling.

The formation is not the problem, United formation is similar to Bayerns.

Look at them v City and United v Sunderland- Rooney always drops deep and and could easily be playing the Kroos role from the City game. Muller is RVP. Two Wide players are Januzaj and Nani.

The difference is the movement and the pressing. United in the first half were not moving and were timid making it easy for Sunderland to play when they had the ball. Second half United actually started to work together and hassle the Sunderland players, disrupting them and making it easier to find space for United players when they inevitably won the ball.

Obviously Bayern level of movement and pressing is way above what United did in the second half but they are the things that needs to be worked on.

In reality Kagawa and Rooney with RVP means one has to play wide, as it goes Januzaj played wide and played very well anyway.

United need to work better as a unit, I think that will be something Moyes wants them to do and a lot of the negative safe play was influenced by him just starting the job rather than a philosophy of how his team should play or idea on how he wants the team to play going forward

homerjay2005

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Hopefully January gets us another CM to help.

my fear is that we have burned our bridges with our main targets during the summer and need to start all over again - something that ive no confidence in Moyes and Woodward to do after the last shambles.

the second thing is certain players will be cup tied for Europe which may turn us/them off (but it shouldnt) and it limits our pool of opportunity.

3rd thing is there is no guarantee we will be in the top 4, even top 6 come January at the way things are going. i cant see many top players wanting to sign for us if this doesnt change and few top class players will want to come on board if there is a doubt over the future of the manager.


i can see Baines coming in, but the chances of us getting in the players we actually need are slim. Herrera is the only other option but i cant see us getting him.

Nalz

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Herrera is the only other option but i cant see us getting him.

Why?

Lucas Hood

Bayern played 4141 formation the other night .

Neuer
Rafinha Boateng Dante Alaba
Lahm
Robben Kroos Schweni Ribery
Muller

I don't see many similarities between the two formations.

Rayne Wooney

Herrera isn't a marquee signing, it was a choice between him and Fellaini and then a world class midfielder, getting both him and having Fellaini will just be spending the best part of 60 million on two average midfielders when compared with someone like Fabregas.

homerjay2005

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Herrera isn't a marquee signing, it was a choice between him and Fellaini and then a world class midfielder, getting both him and having Fellaini will just be spending the best part of 60 million on two average midfielders when compared with someone like Fabregas.

well thats what happens when we over pay for fellani and if we want Herrara, its going to cost €36million aint it?

i fear that Fellani could end up being our worst ever signing, which would be a huge shame. hopefully he comes good.

DM_7

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Bayern played 4141 formation the other night .

Neuer
Rafinha Boateng Dante Alaba
Lahm
Robben Kroos Schweni Ribery
Muller

I don't see many similarities between the two formations.

Four in defence, one up front, two wide players and three in the central midfield area and you can't see similarities?

Carrick rarely steps up beyond the holding position in midfield.

Cleverley moves up the field while Rooney drops back. The end result of the formation is not hugely different.

Nuri Sahin

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Bayern played 4141 formation the other night .

Neuer
Rafinha Boateng Dante Alaba
Lahm
Robben Kroos Schweni Ribery
Muller

I don't see many similarities between the two formations.

Movement, movement and movement. Players interchanging positions and being technically sound when under pressure. That's the difference.

homerjay2005

who doesnt have international call ups this week?

assume the following will remain at home, what about the others?

Rafael
Vidic
Rio
Giggs
Anderson

then there are those who are injured such as Fellani, Young.

what about the u21 players, do they have games?

homerjay2005

and there is the Jose effect already starting to kick in. playing poorly, but still picking up results and ticking along nicely. once their new signings get gelled, Chelsea will be very hard to beat.

its what Fergie was great at and why him and Jose have been so successful. Moyes just cannot give us that and i will never see why people wanted Moyes over Jose. people go on about our hard start, but ignore Chelsea had to come to us, Spurs and Everton which IMO is as tough, if not tougher than our start.

Vic Vinegar

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i will never see why people wanted Moyes over Jose.

GSPfan

Just incase things go to hell for Moyes and he does lose his job sometime in the next two years I am already gonna throw Pocchettino's name in the hat. Southampton are an excellent team to watch. I told a few people earlier this year that Southampton will be the team who make the biggest improvement this year. There's always a team every year who over achieve and it looks like they will be the team.

I like Moyes and I wish him well but I cant help but think he is doomed. Everyone for years has said they wouldn't want to be the guy who succeeds Ferguson, they'd rather be the guy after the guy.
I do think If Moyes is sacked at any stage in the next few years there will be a more considered approach to the selection of the manager. Moyes was the easy option. He ticks all the boxes for a Ferguson type replacement, but maybe the future doesn't need a Ferguson type replacement.

GSPfan

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and there is the Jose effect already starting to kick in. playing poorly, but still picking up results and ticking along nicely. once their new signings get gelled, Chelsea will be very hard to beat.

its what Fergie was great at and why him and Jose have been so successful. Moyes just cannot give us that and i will never see why people wanted Moyes over Jose.

Thats a bit of a weird statement. Yesterday we played badly and still won. Surely you remember yesterday????

homerjay2005

GSPfan wrote: »

Thats a bit of a weird statement. Yesterday we played badly and still won. Surely you remember yesterday????

nothing weird about saying a world class manager who has won everything in the game offers us something that another who has very little top class pedigree doesnt.

chelsea never looked like losing today, at half time yesterday we had fans calling for Moyes to be sacked. that would not happen if jose was in charge.

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

are you actually serious? one irrelevent incident is enough to wipe out one of the most impressive CVs in football?

two of our best ever players were thugs before/during their United careers - Cantona and Keane. do you hold that against them, especially as most of their wrong doings came in the club Jersey they we wearing?

Blatter

At 1-1, Norwich had a couple of good moments in Chelsea's box, somebody slipped for them at a vital moment. You could easily say Chelsea looked like they could lose at that stage.

Will I Amnt

homerjay2005 wrote: »

chelsea never looked like losing today,

Yea they did. He gambled with 3 at the back when chasing the winner and they were caught on the break a few times. Poor decision making from the Norwich forwards is all that prevented them going behind.
Gamble payed off in the end, could easily have gone the other way with him looking foolish.

Rayne Wooney

Mourinho would have came in, basically guaranteed success for 2-3 seasons then left, he's a quick fix. United look into the long term and I can see the reasons why Moyes was picked, but there's no guarantee that will pay off.

Give Moyes a season, depending on results if we're bottom half come Christmas the club need to reevaluate, if we're outside the top 3 and the team still playing shíte football then we need to cut our losses.

Vic Vinegar

homerjay2005 wrote: »

are you actually serious? one irrelevent incident is enough to wipe out one of the most impressive CVs in football?

You asked a question, i offered a response. It was hardly an irrelevant incident. He could have blinded the guy. Shocking behaviour from a manager.

Anyway, Moyes wasn't my first choice but he's here now so suck it up.

IvySlayer

Man Utd is a huge brand too.

Moyes was the safe option, Fergie has trusted him with it. Mourinho would've wanted a lot of money, made a lot of signings, fought with everyone and left in a huff in 3 years time. Considering his Madrid squad was the most expensive side of all time, 1 league and 1 cup was not a great return. Mourinho never promotes youth either

I wish we'd have gone all out for Klopp, but he seems pretty loyal to Dortmund.

homerjay2005

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Mourinho would have came in, basically guaranteed success for 2-3 seasons then left, he's a quick fix. United look into the long term and I can see the reasons why Moyes was picked, but there's no guarantee that will pay off.

we keep hearing this bold part, but its based on absolute rubbish.

Jose needed a stable club, the last 3 clubs he got involved with have a history of acting the d*ck, without or without him. he needs a club where nobody is interfering, a club that has a fan base that demands success and a club that deserves the best around.

if Jose got the job, he would have seen out his 6 year contract and more in my opinion, United is made for him. he is getting older, wiser and we were the last piece in his Jigsaw, there was nowhere else for him to go.

Eitherway, its been done now and we cant change it, but people keep asking why Jose and Pellagrini are not being slagged as much as Moyes when its pretty f*cking obvious.

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Anyway, Moyes wasn't my first choice but he's here now so suck it up.

out of interest, who would you have wanted to get the job? if Jose had got it, would you have been opposed to it as 1000's of united fans were with Moyes?

IvySlayer

homerjay - Inter?

Vic Vinegar

homerjay2005 wrote: »

out of interest, who would you have wanted to get the job? if Jose had got it, would you have been opposed to it as 1000's of united fans were with Moyes?

Klopp, or Guardiola if he was available.

I would have supported Mourinho begrudgingly if he got the job, much like you are with Moyes.

DM_7

Like Pep, Klopp wasn't available either.

ericzeking

On our creativity through the middle...pretty much every top team is playing a similar formation, a variation of 4231, the difference for us is that we are playing Rooney, a striker/second striker in that no.10 role whereas other teams have players who are genuine attacking midfield players in that role eg ozil, mata etc. It would be nice to see Kagawa in the role but Rooney is playing so well...its a bit of a conundrum

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Mourinho would have came in, basically guaranteed success for 2-3 seasons then left, he's a quick fix. United look into the long term and I can see the reasons why Moyes was picked, but there's no guarantee that will pay off.

Give Moyes a season, depending on results if we're bottom half come Christmas the club need to reevaluate, if we're outside the top 3 and the team still playing shíte football then we need to cut our losses.

If you're outside the top 3 at Christmas the club needs to sack him, but if you're bottom half it needs to reevaluate?

Rayne Wooney

rarnes1 wrote: »

If you're outside the top 3 at Christmas the club needs to sack him, but if you're bottom half it needs to reevaluate?

Other way around

homerjay2005

hopefully Moyes is watching this game and he should show our players two things -

the movement of Arsenal and how their playmakers create space.

the cross just there for that goal - sensational....pace, beat the first man and hitting the box at a height that can be attacked by an attacking player.

PhlegmyMoses

Arsenal aren't playing very well Homer. Weird post.

homerjay2005

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Arsenal aren't playing very well Homer. Weird post.

their standard of football and movement is above anything United have produced this season and its certainly much betters than West Brom today - 100 passes more than West Brom already, almost 20% more possession and 85% passing accuracy v 68% in opposition half.

the movement off the ball is really good, so much better than ours is scary. lets not forget, Arsenal are missing two of their best players today and our attacking players (Rooney, RVP, Nani) are better than what they have. no matter what players Arsenal put out, their movement is always first class.

Red Crow

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Arsenal aren't playing very well Homer. Weird post.

Last year everyone was foaming about Chelsea and how great they were at the start. This year it's Arsenal. The initial lift from Ozil will die off and the rusty cogs behind him will once again be exposed.

Arsenal finished last year strongly but I'm not convinced that they can win the league. Also who have they beaten in the league? Spurs. That's it tbh. Let's wait until they start playing the big teams in the league before foaming at the mouth.

RasTa

homerjay2005 wrote: »

their standard of football and movement is above anything United have produced this season and its certainly much betters than West Brom today - 100 passes more than West Brom already, almost 20% more possession and 85% passing accuracy v 68% in opposition half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWJIQm9qH-w

PhlegmyMoses

I'm not seeing any of that here Homer. They've looked fairly poor in all departments. It may be better than we have been this season but I wouldn't be watching that and thinking, that'll solve it for us.

homerjay2005

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'm not seeing any of that here Homer. They've looked fairly poor in all departments. It may be better than we have been this season but I wouldn't be watching that and thinking, that'll solve it for us.

Arsenal have alot of very average players, yet still are able to play lovely stuff. they play football the right way, not just knock it long as alot of teams in the league do, depending on set pieces in or like we do, just get it to our wingers and try cross it into the box.

Red Crow wrote: »

Last year everyone was foaming about Chelsea and how great they were at the start. This year it's Arsenal. The initial lift from Ozil will die off and the rusty cogs behind him will once again be exposed.

Arsenal have picked up more points than any other club in 2013...its not just a 7 game thing, they have been doing well all year. a horrific injury record, together with a mindless transfer policy/attitude from Wenger is the main reason why Arsenal have gone so long without winning anything.

onemorechance

homerjay2005 wrote: »

their standard of football and movement is above anything United have produced this season and its certainly much betters than West Brom today - 100 passes more than West Brom already, almost 20% more possession and 85% passing accuracy v 68% in opposition half.

the movement off the ball is really good, so much better than ours is scary. lets not forget, Arsenal are missing two of their best players today and our attacking players (Rooney, RVP, Nani) are better than what they have. no matter what players Arsenal put out, their movement is always first class.

Let's not forget they are one - nil down and haven't won a trophy in nearly a decade.

Nalz

My fear is that we're terrible. That we are awful everywhere, everyday. I fear we are really bad. I think we are crap. It's 7 games in and everyone is better than us. Our manager isn't very good.

We are no good.

We are awful.

onemorechance

Trilla wrote: »

My fear is that we're terrible. That we are awful everywhere, everyday. I fear we are really bad. I think we are crap. It's 7 games in and everyone is better than us. Our manager isn't very good.

We are no good.

We are awful.

Homer has two accounts!!?? :pac:

Nalz

onemorechance wrote: »

Homer has two accounts!!?? :pac:

Nope. These are my new thoughts on our situation. I've changed my mind.

homerjay2005

onemorechance wrote: »

Let's not forget they are one - nil down and haven't won a trophy in nearly a decade.

read my original statement again please....

i dont give a f*ck what Arsenal have won or havent won, i like their approach to playing football and how they do it.

what they do lack however (added to the 2 reasons above) are the leaders such as Vidic, Rio and Evra that were the cornerstone of our 5 league titles in the period you mention.

Martin Walker

You can be tedious homer.

homerjay2005

Martin Walker wrote: »

You can be tedious homer.

i dont recall saying much about Arsenal here before, so can you care to elaborate?

are you honestly denying that Arsenals football, in general is pretty decent over the last few years and ours isnt?

of course trophies are the be all and end all and thats what counts, but i dont think its too much to ask that we win things, but playing nice football is it?

onemorechance

homerjay2005 wrote: »

read my original statement again please....

i dont give a f*ck what Arsenal have won or havent won, i like their approach to playing football and how they do it.

what they do lack however (added to the 2 reasons above) are the leaders such as Vidic, Rio and Evra that were the cornerstone of our 5 league titles in the period you mention.

Sorry I can't read it again! One reading is more pessimism than I can take. How do you manage it yourself?

Martin Walker

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i dont recall saying much about Arsenal here before, so can you care to elaborate?

are you honestly denying that Arsenals football, in general is pretty decent over the last few years and ours isnt?

of course trophies are the be all and end all and thats what counts, but i dont think its too much to ask that we win things, but playing nice football is it?

No Homer you and your constant complaining about Manchester Uniteds current predicament is tedious.

Giggsy11

Morrison just scored fantastic goal, superb solo effort. What a talent.

onemorechance

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Morrison just scored fantastic goal, superb solo effort. What a talent.

Surely not as good as Januzaj's second yesterday?

homerjay2005

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Morrison just scored fantastic goal, superb solo effort. What a talent.

alot of the young players who have left the club recently in one form or another (loan/sale) have been impressive lately.

Martin Walker wrote: »

No Homer you and your constant complaining about Manchester Uniteds current predicament is tedious.

care to give us your view or tell me what i am wrong about?