Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 mod warning post#7259

tallaghtmick

listermint wrote: »

Does yesterday's shot not count as an assist :-P

It was Boruc's assist :pac:

Great pass from Adnan though.

ShoulderChip

It's hard to see how he could not make room for Ozil.

PhlegmyMoses

The argument that some rival fans have put forward that Fergie was getting much more out of this team than the quality suggested doesn't hold water if it's being used as an indicator for why this season isn't going well. It actually distracts from the actual reasons why we're not performing.

It could be a valid argument if we were coming in second or third at the end and just a few moments of quality from the likes of City or Chelsea separated us. But it's not like Fergie was the difference between us last season and the train wreck that this season has been. We have excellent players and an excellent squad. It's better than all other squads in the league bar City's and maybe Chelsea's.

There is no reason why, even without Ferguson, that this squad shouldn't be near the top. Teams with decent first XIs and threadbare squads like Arsenal and Liverpool have made a great start to the season. City and Chelsea have had a couple of blips but have racked up the points.

DARK-KNIGHT

United team look terrible at times! So much deadwood at the club tgat needs to be sold on orreleased

Rayne Wooney

Everything I've read here has been pretty much spot on whether it's the pressing way too deep in our own half or our hoof ball tactics that lead to us crossing it for the whole game that's easily defended, if random people on boards can see this I really hope Moyes isn't oblivious, but he's had 8 games now and still no improvement.

When you look at all of our league performance, we've been so bad. Take away the very lucky Sunderland win and we'd be sitting 15th in the table, 11 points off the top, which sounds about right considering our performances so far.

Kerrydude1981

Watching the MOTD highlights you would think that it was Utd on top for long periods of the game yesterday.

Evans attempt at marking Lovern gets worse every time I see it

PropJoe10

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The argument that some rival fans have put forward that Fergie was getting much more out of this team than the quality suggested doesn't hold water if it's being used as an indicator for why this season isn't going well. It actually distracts from the actual reasons why we're not performing.

It could be a valid argument if we were coming in second or third at the end and just a few moments of quality from the likes of City or Chelsea separated us. But it's not like Fergie was the difference between us last season and the train wreck that this season has been. We have excellent players and an excellent squad. It's better than all other squads in the league bar City's and maybe Chelsea's.

There is no reason why, even without Ferguson, that this squad shouldn't be near the top. Teams with decent first XIs and threadbare squads like Arsenal and Liverpool have made a great start to the season. City and Chelsea have had a couple of blips but have racked up the points.

I would have to take issue with this, I am no United fan but do you really think that the likes of Anderson, Cleverley, Nani, Valencia, Evans, Carrick, Giggs, Fellaini and Welbeck would be regular starters in either City's or Chelsea's first 11? I personally very much doubt it. Not trying to troll here btw.

Lord TSC

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I would have to take issue with this, I am no United fan but do you really think that the likes of Anderson, Cleverley, Nani, Valencia, Evans, Carrick, Giggs, Fellaini and Welbeck would be regular starters in either City's or Chelsea's first 11? I personally very much doubt it. Not trying to troll here btw.

There's a difference between "Squad" and "Starting 11".

I personally think City and Chelsea have better starting 11s all over, but a weaker Squad of players.

Robson99

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I would have to take issue with this, I am no United fan but do you really think that the likes of Anderson, Cleverley, Nani, Valencia, Evans, Carrick, Giggs, Fellaini and Welbeck would be regular starters in either City's or Chelsea's first 11? I personally very much doubt it. Not trying to troll here btw.

You make a good point PropJoe. You could add Young and Fabio to that list also. A team will get by with a couple of those players you listed there but when you are playing 4, 5 or 6 of them at the one time then you are in trouble. People can be on about better squads all day but if your squad has a lot of average players then your in trouble

Hulk Hands

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I would have to take issue with this, I am no United fan but do you really think that the likes of Anderson, Cleverley, Nani, Valencia, Evans, Carrick, Giggs, Fellaini and Welbeck would be regular starters in either City's or Chelsea's first 11? I personally very much doubt it. Not trying to troll here btw.

He said it's better than all others bar City's or Chelsea's. So he's not saying they would get in those teams at all. Anyway, Carrick would walk into that Chelsea midfield if we're being picky

Corben Dallas

"Teams with decent first XIs and threadbare squads like Arsenal and Liverpool"

Liverpool u may have a point bout quality players beyond Gerrard, Sturridge and Saurez......but Aresnal????!!!! THEARDBARE SQUARD???!!!!!

Start with Giroud, Ramsey(playing out of his skin at the mo), Ozil:cool: (enuff said) Wiltshire, Walcott (coming back), Arteta (soild) Carzola> quality player and Ox-Chamblain will develop to be poss gr8 player ...Rosicky. Vermaelen is as good a CB as the best in league.

Midfield is streets ahead of MU's now.

maybe u could say dont have enough quality cover (especially in defence) but def not threadbare....

PhlegmyMoses

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I would have to take issue with this, I am no United fan but do you really think that the likes of Anderson, Cleverley, Nani, Valencia, Evans, Carrick, Giggs, Fellaini and Welbeck would be regular starters in either City's or Chelsea's first 11? I personally very much doubt it. Not trying to troll here btw.

Nope but most of those would not be in United's best first XI. Nani, Carrick and Fellaini would be.

But then, Eto'o, Torres, Demba Ba, Azpilicueta, Cech, Cahill and Terry wouldn't get into our first XI.

Joe Hart, Lescott, Clichy, Kolarov, Negredo, Dzeko, Javi Garcia, Rodwell and DiMichelis wouldn't get into our first XI.

You get my point now about squads and first XIs? And I know that Man City's first XI is better than ours. Our midfield is too weak and our wingers too off form for me to make any other claim.

PhlegmyMoses

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Teams with decent first XIs and threadbare squads like Arsenal and Liverpool

Liverpool u may have a point bout quality players beyond Gerrard, Sturridge and Saurez......but Aresnal????!!!! THEARDBARE SQUARD???!!!!!

Start with Giroud Ramsey(playing out of his skin at the mo), Ozil (enuff said) Wiltshire, Walcott (coming back), Arteta (soild) Carzola quality player and Ox-Chamblain will develop to be poss gr8 player ...Rosicky. Vermaelen is as good a CB as the best in league.

Midfield is streets ahead of MU's now.

maybe u could say dont have enough quality cover (especially in defence) but def not threadbare....

Yes, your squad is threadbare up front and in defence. And Vermaelen has been rubbish. You're stacked in midfield. I'll give you that. I'm jealous of some of your players in that position but our squad is better.

listermint

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Nope but most of those would not be in United's best first XI. Nani, Carrick and Fellaini would be.

But then, Eto'o, Torres, Demba Ba, Azpilicueta, Cech, Cahill and Terry wouldn't get into our first XI.

Joe Hart, Lescott, Clichy, Kolarov, Negredo, Dzeko, Javi Garcia, Rodwell and DiMichelis wouldn't get into our first XI.

You get my point now about squads and first XIs and squads? And I know that Man City's first XI is better than ours.Our midfield is too weak and our wingers too off form for me to make any other claim.

Emmmm what.

listermint

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yes, your squad is threadbare up front and in defence. And Vermaelen has been rubbish. You're stacked in midfield. I'll give you that. I'm jealous of some of your players in that position but our squad is better.

It's just not. Your last two posts on this are full of so much wrong.

mewe

Wilshere's goal yesterday was a thing of beauty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrzhcw6sXqE

PhlegmyMoses

listermint wrote: »

It's just not. Your last two posts on this are full of so much wrong.

Then point out where I'm wrong or stop responding to me with childish retorts.

CSF

Really really get the impression that a certain section of the United support is trying too hard to be the anti-Chelsea and in doing so are being far too light on Moyes.

He doesn't deserve the constant excuses being made for him. 8 games in is 8 games in and too early to talk about ending someone's reign, but thus far it has been an absolute calamity with no valid excuses, and far more down to negative management than bad or limited players. There are plenty of other managers out there who wouldn't be needing excuses made for them at this early stage.

gosplan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

There's a difference between "Squad" and "Starting 11".

I personally think City and Chelsea have better starting 11s all over, but a weaker Squad of players.

Utd are a bit weaker IMO.

Rooney & RVP would make any team but apart from that City & Chelsea have it all over the pitch except for maybe City's other CB.

CSF

listermint wrote: »

Emmmm what.

Most of that seems fairly on the mark to me

CSF

gosplan wrote: »

Utd are a bit weaker IMO.

Rooney & RVP would make any team but apart from that City & Chelsea have it all over the pitch except for maybe City's other CB.

De Gea, Vidic, Carrick

listermint

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Then point out where I'm wrong or stop responding to me with childish retorts.

"Cech, and Terry wouldn't get into our first XI.

Joe Hart, Clichy, Kolarov, Negredo, Dzeko,wouldn't get into our first XI."


This part. I think your in a delusion that you've a panel of superstars willing to die for the cause.

PropJoe10

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Nope but most of those would not be in United's best first XI. Nani, Carrick and Fellaini would be.

But then, Eto'o, Torres, Demba Ba, Azpilicueta, Cech, Cahill and Terry wouldn't get into our first XI.

Joe Hart, Lescott, Clichy, Kolarov, Negredo, Dzeko, Javi Garcia, Rodwell and DiMichelis wouldn't get into our first XI.

You get my point now about squads and first XIs? And I know that Man City's first XI is better than ours. Our midfield is too weak and our wingers too off form for me to make any other claim.

I take your point about squad/first 11 but in fairness, your original point was that you have excellent players and an excellent squad. You have some excellent players (Rooney, RVP, Kagawa, Vidic, Rafael, De Gea) but the players I listed (in my view) are nowhere near the quality that Manchester United require, even as squad players. Whereas the likes of Dzeko, Torres, Cahill etc that you listed might not parachute straight into your first 11 but they're a hell of a lot better than the players you have on the bench currently.

CSF

listermint wrote: »

"Cech, and Terry wouldn't get into our first XI.

Joe Hart, Clichy, Kolarov, Negredo, Dzeko,wouldn't get into our first XI."


This part. I think your in a delusion that you've a panel of superstars willing to die for the cause.

With the exception of maybe Clichy I don't know who you would argue would get in, De Gea is the best of the 3 keepers, Rooney and RVP are certainly better than Negredo and Dzeko. Would you really give Kolarov the nod over Evra?

bucketybuck

listermint wrote: »

"Cech, and Terry wouldn't get into our first XI.

Joe Hart, Clichy, Kolarov, Negredo, Dzeko,wouldn't get into our first XI."


This part. I think your in a delusion that you've a panel of superstars willing to die for the cause.

What are you talking about? We are rubbish at the minute, but I still wouldn't have any of those players in our first 11.

Clichy? Nope. Terry? Nope. Hart or Cech? Nope. Negredo or Dzeko? What, we dropping Van Persie now?

There are players in the City and Chelsea teams I would take for the first 11, but you haven't named any of them yet.

PhlegmyMoses

listermint wrote: »

"Cech, and Terry wouldn't get into our first XI.

Joe Hart, Clichy, Kolarov, Negredo, Dzeko,wouldn't get into our first XI."


This part. I think your in a delusion that you've a panel of superstars willing to die for the cause.

De Gea is in a better patch of form than Hart and Cech. It's not a ludicrous suggestion that I prefer him over those two.

In defence it's Vidic plus one. I'd far prefer pretty much every other option we have than Terry plus Vidic. It'd be the slowest defence around and we'd be defending even deeper than we are now.

Evra is better than Clichy and Kolarov. Again, not a ludicrous assertion. And our strikeforce is Rooney and RVP so Dezeko and Negredo are out. The only player from either team that would displace them is Aguero. Note that I haven't included him on my list.

You can continue to try to make out that I'm deluded or belittle my points, but I'm not making any frightening leaps here. I'm not saying that Valencia is better than Silva or Welbeck is better than Ageuro.

bucketybuck

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Whereas the likes of Dzeko, Torres, Cahill etc that you listed might not parachute straight into your first 11 but they're a hell of a lot better than the players you have on the bench currently.

Again, what is this all about? You really think people would rather have Dzeko or Torres on the bench instead of Hernandez? No chance in hell. You really think Cahill is better than any of the five central defenders currently in the United squad? You must be joking!

listermint

bucketybuck wrote: »

What are you talking about? We are rubbish at the minute, but I still wouldn't have any of those players in our first 11.

Clichy? Nope. Terry? Nope. Hart or Cech? Nope. Negredo or Dzeko? What, we dropping Van Persie now?

There are players in the City and Chelsea teams I would take for the first 11, but you haven't named any of them yet.

I suppose correctly some are not straight eleven. But I was specifically pointing at the fact that you have a delusional poster claiming thread bare squads elsewhere when it's quite apparent that United have one and it's plain to see.

Which ever way you paint it stop blaming moyes January is very important to you and the lack of panel progress began firmly at the feet of Ferguson 2 seasons back and has continued since.

Expecting to be top 4 and blaming moyes for it is perplexing to say the least

PhlegmyMoses

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I take your point about squad/first 11 but in fairness, your original point was that you have excellent players and an excellent squad. You have some excellent players (Rooney, RVP, Kagawa, Vidic, Rafael, De Gea) but the players I listed (in my view) are nowhere near the quality that Manchester United require, even as squad players. Whereas the likes of Dzeko, Torres, Cahill etc that you listed might not parachute straight into your first 11 but they're a hell of a lot better than the players you have on the bench currently.

Of the players you listed, Carrick, Nani and Fellaini would be better than some of the players those teams have on their bench. It really is a much of a muchness. On our bench we have Hernandez. I'd have him over Torres and Dzeko (although there is be an argument there for Dzeko). I don't really rate Cahill that much either so pick one of Smalling, Evans and Jones and remove them. Not much of a difference imo.

PropJoe10

bucketybuck wrote: »

Again, what is this all about? You really think people would rather have Dzeko or Torres on the bench instead of Hernandez? No chance in hell. You really think Cahill is better than any of the five central defenders currently in the United squad? You must be joking!

United fans in "getting defensive about their squad" shocker. I would personally take Gary Cahill, Ivanovic or Terry over Ferdinand, Evans and Jones any day. Hernandez over Torres for sure, Dzeko over Hernandez as an overall player - probably. What are your views on the likes of Anderson and Cleverley? And with all due respect, Ryan Giggs should be nowhere near the United squad at this stage.

PhlegmyMoses

listermint wrote: »

I suppose correctly some are not straight eleven. But I was specifically pointing at the fact that you have a delusional poster claiming thread bare squads elsewhere when it's quite apparent that United have one and it's plain to see.

Which ever way you paint it stop blaming moyes January is very important to you and the lack of panel progress began firmly at the feet of Ferguson 2 seasons back and has continued since.

Expecting to be top 4 and blaming moyes for it is perplexing to say the least

We won the ****ing league last year and haven't been out of the top two in nearly a decade. Those teams that have threadbare squads have done well in 8 games and we're now suddenly to believe that United's squad is similar to their's? And I'm delusional? Do me a favour. Maybe, you know, the transition between managers might be at the heart of it? Maybe the squad is pretty good and it's taking some time under a manager getting to grips with one of the biggest jobs in the world? My initial point is that the squad is not not good enough to be on the top 4.

We are threadbare in midfield. Arsenal are in defence and up front. Liverpool lack quality in many areas but they've had a great start aided greatly by two strikers that are in top form. It may continue but I doubt it. Even the most one-eyed Liverpool fan will tell you that they've had many shaky second halves this year.

Robson99

IMO only De Gea, Vidic and RVP would get into the Man City Team. Rooney would not replace Augero . As regards Chelsea I rate Smalling as good as Cahill and Carrick would probably get into the Chelsea Mid field. Rooney would get into the Chelsea team as striker but couldnt see him as a definite starter playing in the hole.

PhlegmyMoses

PropJoe10 wrote: »

United fans in "getting defensive about their squad" shocker. I would personally take Gary Cahill, Ivanovic or Terry over Ferdinand, Evans and Jones any day. Hernandez over Torres for sure, Dzeko over Hernandez as an overall player - probably. What are your views on the likes of Anderson and Cleverley? And with all due respect, Ryan Giggs should be nowhere near the United squad at this stage.

In fairness, you've come into a rival team's thread to defend other team's players and squads. If that's not defensive, I don't know what is.

And the rest of your post shows that you've missed the point. None of those players are first team players. And even the best squads in the league have players that we could be asking the same questions of.

CSF

listermint wrote: »

I suppose correctly some are not straight eleven. But I was specifically pointing at the fact that you have a delusional poster claiming thread bare squads elsewhere when it's quite apparent that United have one and it's plain to see.

Which ever way you paint it stop blaming moyes January is very important to you and the lack of panel progress began firmly at the feet of Ferguson 2 seasons back and has continued since.

Expecting to be top 4 and blaming moyes for it is perplexing to say the least

Of course it is Moyes at fault though, another manager was able to win the league by 10 points with this same squad, winning almost every week playing attacking football. Moyes can barely buy a win playing horrible negative football.

Robson99

CSF wrote: »

Of course it is Moyes at fault though, another manager was able to win the league by 10 points with this same squad, winning almost every week playing attacking football. Moyes can barely buy a win playing horrible negative football.

And cost us the league the season before!!!!!

Rayne Wooney

CSF wrote: »

Of course it is Moyes at fault though, another manager was able to win the league by 10 points with this same squad, winning almost every week playing attacking football. Moyes can barely buy a win playing horrible negative football.

I think everyone agrees it's been a disaster so far but there's still a long way to go and a January transfer window.

If the fans started getting on his back now it's only going to make matters worse than they already are, we've enough problems already we don't need to create our own.

PropJoe10

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

In fairness, you've come into a rival team's thread to defend other team's players and squads. If that's not defensive, I don't know what is.

And the rest of your post shows that you've missed the point. None of those players are first team players. And even the best squads in the league have players that we could be asking the same questions of.

Where have I defended other teams' squads exactly? And I think you may be the one missing the point - my point was that the players I listed are not good enough for Manchester United's squad. The idea of a squad is that you have a strong first 11 with strong players on the bench to come in, if and when required. United certainly dont have that at the moment, regardless of what you seem to think.

Maybe you should go and look up the meaning of the word "defensive", because you're clearly confused about its meaning.

listermint

CSF wrote: »

Of course it is Moyes at fault though, another manager was able to win the league by 10 points with this same squad, winning almost every week playing attacking football. Moyes can barely buy a win playing horrible negative football.

'Another manager' this fact can't be overstated though it wasn't just 'another' manager

CSF

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I think everyone agrees it's been a disaster so far but there's still a long way to go and a January transfer window.

If the fans started getting on his back now it's only going to make matters worse than they already are, we've enough problems already we don't need to create our own.

It isn't about getting on his back. It is about calling a spade, a spade. Clearly you can do that, but there are other people (possibly Moyes included with the style of football he is employing) that go on like he has inherited the Stoke squad.

CSF

listermint wrote: »

'Another manager' this fact can't be overstated though it wasn't just 'another' manager

A world class manager. Which is what United needed to replace him with.

gosplan

I really think that without Fergie to instruct and motivate, a reassessment of many of Utd's squad players might be necessary.

I mean look how much he got out of people like O'Shea, Brown and so on. Christ he even made Michael Owen look really dangerous the few times he came on.

Apart from the obvious people like RVP and DDG, I find it quite hard to assess how good many of Utd's players are. But thr happens with great managers, look at Sahin and Kagawa after Dortmund. Look at Hleb, Song, Flamini and so on after they left Arsenal.

listermint

CSF wrote: »

A world class manager. Which is what United needed to replace him with.

Along with world class signings. Which hasn't happened.

It's black and white the depth is missing and unfortunately right now moyes is also making poor decisions to add to this problem. Coupled with a lack of real performances from players who last year performed.

Who's to blame? Players manager and transfers. Everyone.


They need some time to get their **** together and January will be important as ever.

CSF

gosplan wrote: »

I really think that without Fergie to instruct and motivate, a reassessment of many of Utd's squad players might be necessary.

I mean look how much he got out of people like O'Shea, Brown and so on. Christ he even made Michael Owen look really dangerous the few times he came on.

Apart from the obvious people like RVP and DDG, I find it quite hard to assess how good many of Utd's players are. But thr happens with great managers, look at Sahin and Kagawa after Dortmund. Look at Hleb, Song, Flamini and so on after they left Arsenal.

If United had a world class manager, this might not be such a problem though...

listermint

CSF wrote: »

If United had a world class manager, this might not be such a problem though...

I honestly don't believe another manager could make a difference without a host of other changes either.

PhlegmyMoses

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Where have I defended other teams' squads exactly? And I think you may be the one missing the point - my point was that the players I listed are not good enough for Manchester United's squad. The idea of a squad is that you have a strong first 11 with strong players on the bench to come in, if and when required. United certainly dont have that at the moment, regardless of what you seem to think.

We'll do it again......

United's bench yesterday: Giggs, Smalling, Lindegaard, Hernández, Welbeck, Kagawa, Zaha

Man City's bench yesterday: Zabaleta, Lescott, Milner, Dzeko, Kolarov, Pantilimon, Jovetic.

Chelsea bench: Schwarzer (g), Essien, De Bruyne, Cahill, Oscar, Torres, Azpilicueta.

Huge difference? You know there isn't.

I think the misunderstanding here is the difference between players performing and players not performing, rather than quality of respective squads. United's squad is not performing. The quality is there.

CSF

listermint wrote: »

Along with world class signings. Which hasn't happened.

It's black and white the depth is missing and unfortunately right now moyes is also making poor decisions to add to this problem. Coupled with a lack of real performances from players who last year performed.

Who's to blame? Players manager and transfers. Everyone.


They need some time to get their **** together and January will be important as ever.

But it has already been shown that this bunch can do the biz with a world class manager, they are good enough to do it, even 2 seasons ago they finished on the same total as probably the best City there will be for quite a long time.

The massive drop in quality in manager is where the change lies. There was always going to be a difficulty in the loss of Ferguson but this could have been hugely eased by bringing in someone from the same bracket of quality. Not boring, solid, average Moyes.

CSF

listermint wrote: »

I honestly don't believe another manager could make a difference without a host of other changes either.

I think you're selling a lot of managers short if you think they couldn't have masterminded home victories over West Brom and Southampton with that squad.

PhlegmyMoses

listermint wrote: »

Along with world class signings. Which hasn't happened.

It's black and white the depth is missing and unfortunately right now moyes is also making poor decisions to add to this problem. Coupled with a lack of real performances from players who last year performed.

Who's to blame? Players manager and transfers. Everyone.


They need some time to get their **** together and January will be important as ever.

This team won the league by 10 points last year. The only huge personnel changes in the league have been in the management area. Neither chelsea or City have bought any new players that have lit the league up. Neither have United. What has changed?

listermint

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This team won the league by 10 points last year. The only huge personnel changes in the league have been in the management area. Neither chelsea or City have bought any new players that have lit the league up. Neither have United. What has changed?

United panel are mourning the loss of its only effective linchpin?

Don't disregard the negative effective mentality of change has on players. Also don't disregard the dire straights of how league contenders faired last season. It was a woeful season to be reasonably fair.

And don't take that as a slight which is a usual jump reaction.

Rayne Wooney

listermint wrote: »

I honestly don't believe another manager could make a difference without a host of other changes either.

Klopp wouldn't have this negativity about the current Champions, he wouldn't let Southampton dominate us at home and let them highlight our naivety tactically. He definitely wouldn't have signed Fellaini.

He's the right man for the job IMO and it's in our favour because I doubt he'll be able to topple Bayern in the long run, and United could be the club for him to keep progressing.

Moyes was always a risk and so far it doesn't look like paying off, hopefully he can turn it around but we have to be realistic here.