Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 mod warning post#7259

Headshot

Just reading the sigs there, people have far to much time on their hands

IvySlayer

Indeed.

MD1990

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Should have asked him why we were after a first choice left back when we have Paddy

Actually can't believe none of those journos asked

because he thinks Baines is better obviously

Julez

Guys can we stop with the football talk for at least five minutes?

So... Whos getting GTA V?

I joke, I joke!

Can't wait for tomorrow, my only opinion on the game right now is I'll be very, very annoyed if Giggs starts! I'd love to see Kagawa, but as he's been around the world playing the past week I won't expect much. But, please God just don't start Giggs!

Vic Vinegar

Julez wrote: »

I'd love to see Kagawa, but as he's been around the world playing the past week I won't expect much. But, please God just don't start Giggs!

I think Kagawa will get on for a while tomorrow but will start in his favoured position on Tuesday against Leverkusen.

Rayne Wooney

MD1990 wrote: »

because he thinks Baines is better obviously

Coentrao as well then obviously?

Julez

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

I think Kagawa will get on for a while tomorrow but will start in his favoured position on Tuesday against Leverkusen.

Yeah probably the best way to do it. Would like to see him get a full game mid week.

richierichballs

David Moyes "I've watched Belgium play and I always come away thinking Fellaini is the best player in the squad."

WTF??

Julez

richierichballs wrote: »

David Moyes "I've watched Belgium play and I always come away thinking Fellaini is the best player in the squad."

WTF??

I know, what kind of an idiot manager tries to build the confidence of one of his players?

richierichballs

Julez wrote: »

I know, what kind of an idiot manager tries to build the confidence of one of his players?

I know, especially when he could of bought him much earlier at a cheaper price but left it til last minute cause he couldn't get anyone else.

yabadabado

Hope Fellaini, Nani and Kagawa all start tomorrow, its unlikely but at the very least they should all get good run outs.

Kerrydude1981

The Afro One was on SSN now.

Cool muta fu*ker

Vic Vinegar

richierichballs wrote: »

I know, especially when he could of bought him much earlier at a cheaper price but left it til last minute cause he couldn't get anyone else.

Have, could have bought him.

Nice try apart from that though.

Red Crow

Fellaini... defensive midfielder.... Music to my ears!

chris445

Anyone know if Rafael is fit for tomorrow or when he's due back???

MANUTD99

richierichballs wrote: »

I know, especially when he could of bought him much earlier at a cheaper price but left it til last minute cause he couldn't get anyone else.

He as in Woodward? Don't blame Moyes for our fiasco summer transfer saga

markc1184

Any mention of Chicharito in the press conference?

s_carnage

chris445 wrote: »

Anyone know if Rafael is fit for tomorrow or when he's due back???

Originally was penciled in to be back for the City game so doubt we'll see him tomorrow.

DM_7

https://twitter.com/RedMancunian/status/378579873335234560/photo/1

Liam O

richierichballs wrote: »

I know, especially when he could of bought him much earlier at a cheaper price but left it til last minute cause he couldn't get anyone else.

Did he not explain literally earlier today why the deal took so long to conclude? I'd say he thought (and this is reasonable enough) that Baines and Fellaini could be got for 35m. As the window went on he probably expected Everton to budge.

Rayne Wooney

Hard to believe Fletch is still only 29, 2 years older than Rooney.

There were periods between 2009 up until his injury when he was world class.


Was it the 2009 CL final he missed that a lot of people said we could have won with him in the team?

The_Kew_Tour

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Was it the 2009 CL final he missed that a lot of people said we could have won with him in the team?

So people will lol at that, but I think he was big loss

Professional Griefer

We were never going to win it 2009. I don't think anyone would have beat Barca that year, they were incredible.

Rayne Wooney

Meh, 2011 no doubt but I think it would have been different in 2009 with Fletcher, there would have been a balance in the team.

We were playing with a 5 man midfield, Park, Anderson, Carrick, Giggs, Rooney with Ronaldo up top basically told to get us goals. Most knew we weren't going to win with that team.

With Fletcher, Ronaldo could have been moved out right with Fletch, Carrick and Giggs. Rooney behind Tevez, I think we could have given them a good game.

Anyway no point dwelling on the past, hopefully Fletch gets back playing soon, badly missed, top bloke by all accounts.

bucketybuck

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

So people will lol at that, but I think he was big loss

He was a big loss, but this here is just blind revisionism:

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

There were periods between 2009 up until his injury when he was world class.

Fletcher wasn't world class even in his wildest dreams. What he was in 2009 was a good player playing out of his skin and influencing games. He was a big loss for the final, but lets not get carried away shall we.

Lovely Bloke

DM-ICE wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RedMancunian/status/378579873335234560/photo/1

Brilliant, a new signing!

Paul Tergat

I only just copped who baldy is...

yabadabado

Fletch was never world class but for a few seasons he was very effective and produced some brilliant performances.His career was stopped for a time when he probably would have been at his peak and no doubt he would have been a good addition the last 2 seasons.
Does anyone think he will make it back to the level he was at before the illness

Rayne Wooney

bucketybuck wrote: »

He was a big loss, but this here is just blind revisionism:



Fletcher wasn't world class even in his wildest dreams. What he was in 2009 was a good player playing out of his skin and influencing games. He was a big loss for the final, but lets not get carried away shall we.

Says you.

Didn't you say Evra was world class last season?

What's your definition of world class?

Fletch was in the PL team of the year in 09/10, "playing out of his skin" for two/three seasons at the level he was playing IMO he was one of the top midfielders around.

All_in_Flynn

Watching PSG here, Lucas Moura looks very special. Still a bit raw mind but so much potential. Such a strong runner like Walcott but with technique. Shame he didnt sign for us.

bucketybuck

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Says you.

Didn't you say Evra was world class last season?

What's your definition of world class?

Fletch was in the PL team of the year in 09/10, "playing out of his skin" for two/three seasons at the level he was playing IMO he was one of the top midfielders around.

You just neutered your argument by using Evra as a comparison.

In 2009, unarguably Fletchers best year, Patrice Evra was also named on that same PL team of the year. Oh, by the way, that year Evra was also named on the FIFPro world 11 and the 2009 Uefa team of the year. Fletcher was not.

Which of them was world class again?

bucketybuck

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Didn't you say Evra was world class last season?

And by the way, no I did not say Evra was world class last season. You must be mixing me up with somebody else.

wadacrack

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

Watching PSG here, Lucas Moura looks very special. Still a bit raw mind but so much potential. Such a strong runner like Walcott but with technique. Shame he didnt sign for us.

Lucas is a great player.Would def be a major asset on the right wing for United.He gave Jordi alba all sorts of problems last year. Great at one on one situations unlike some of the wingers united posess

Rayne Wooney

bucketybuck wrote: »

You just neutered your argument by using Evra as a comparison.

In 2009, unarguably Fletchers best year, Patrice Evra was also named on that same PL team of the year. Oh, by the way, that year Evra was also named on the FIFPro world 11 and the 2009 Uefa team of the year. Fletcher was not.

Which of them was world class again?

No I didn't.

I like the way you just skipped the part where I said last season, good on you. I must be mistaking you with someone else so my bad.

The same FIFPro and Uefa teams that have had both Xavi and Iniesta in them all for the past 5 consecutive years?

So I'll ask again what is world class to you?

World class to me is a player who you could put in a list of maybe the top 20 in a certain position for a certain year, Fletcher would be in mine for 2009. *

*and I know that will contain biases because I haven't watched as much of some as I have as others, but if anyone else has a better way to determine that doesn't entail checking their rating on FIFA 14 please enlighten me.

Just got the latest United Uncovered email from manutd.com. There is a great article in it about one of my childhood United heroes, Steve Coppell along with a video of some of his best moments in a United shirt, great memories and Brian Moore commentating on some of it too, made my day that!

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/United-Uncovered/News/2013/Sep/Issue-33/video-steve-coppell-feature.aspx

bucketybuck

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The same FIFPro and Uefa teams that have had both Xavi and Iniesta in them all for the past 5 consecutive years?

Xavi and Iniesta haven't been two of the best midfielders in the world the past five years? News to me. Is the Ballon D'or also meaningless because Messi keeps winning it?

So I'll ask again what is world class to you?

World class to me is a player who you could put in a list of maybe the top 20 in a certain position for a certain year, Fletcher would be in mine for 2009. *

Well to me thats an absurdly broad definition that renders the term "World class" meaningless. Was the 19th best left back in the world really a world class player?

Is Johnny Evans world class? I can't name 20 better central defenders than him last year so he must be. Is Theo Walcott world class? His stats were as good as Bales last season, so he must be world class. Nah. World class means the best in the world. The best. Not the top 20 or 30 in each position or whatever it takes to make your opinion seem correct.

Fletcher is like Liverpool's Lucas, his reputation grows with every year he doesn't play. But the reality is that for most of his United career he was a jack-of-all-trades, master of none grafter that actually shipped a lot of criticism in a time when our midfield had Miller and O-Shea playing there. The stars came together and he had a fantastic year in 2009, but it wasn't a year where he became a massively talented player, it was a year where he covered every blade of grass, pressed constantly and played to his strengths.

Fletcher was a massive loss in the 2009 final, and I really do think the result might have been different had he played. But world class? Nope.

Rayne Wooney

bucketybuck wrote: »

Xavi and Iniesta haven't been two of the best midfielders in the world the past five years? News to me. Is the Ballon D'or also meaningless because Messi keeps winning it?




Well to me thats an absurdly broad definition that renders the term "World class" meaningless. Was the 19th best left back in the world really a world class player?

Is Johnny Evans world class? I can't name 20 better central defenders than him last year so he must be. Is Theo Walcott world class? His stats were as good as Bales last season, so he must be world class. Nah. World class means the best in the world. The best. Not the top 20 or 30 in each position or whatever it takes to make your opinion seem correct.

Fletcher is like Liverpool's Lucas, his reputation grows with every year he doesn't play. But the reality is that for most of his United career he was a jack-of-all-trades, master of none grafter that actually shipped a lot of criticism in a time when our midfield had Miller and O-Shea playing there. The stars came together and he had a fantastic year in 2009, but it wasn't a year where he became a massively talented player, it was a year where he covered every blade of grass, pressed constantly and played to his strengths.

Fletcher was a massive loss in the 2009 final, and I really do think the result might have been different had he played. But world class? Nope.

Exactly my point, arguably the two best midfielders of the generation and probably two of the best we'll ever see and you put it against Fletcher that he didn't get in the team but Evra did.


So I'll ask you again for the third time, you seem quick to dismiss other opinions yet slow to share your own, how do you determine world class?

You're seriously saying to me that there isn't 20 world class midfielders in the world today?

Maximus Alexander

As much as I hate the term, if I had to define world class I would do it as follows:

Earth are playing Mars in the Solar System Super Cup. You have to pick the squad. A world class player is anyone that you would consider for that squad.

Rayne Wooney

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

As much as I hate the term, if I had to define world class I would do it as follows:

Earth are playing Mars in the Solar System Super Cup. You have to pick the squad. A world class player is anyone that you would consider for that squad.

But that method is just as flawed, or not, as my way.

Your just taking a smaller sample.

A squad of 22, if you're playing 4-4-2, you just have to look at Barca and Bayern, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and say Schweinsteiger fill up all of the CM slots, but those 4 are definitely not the only "world class" midfielders. What about Dortmund, Juventus, Milan, United, Chelsea, City..

Nobody is going to agree on the definition but telling someone else that they're wrong when the topic of "world class" comes up is just pointless.

Timmyctc

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

But that method is just as flawed, or not, as my way.

Your just taking a smaller sample.

A squad of 22, if you're playing 4-4-2, you just have to look at Barca and Bayern, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and say Schweinsteiger fill up all of the CM slots, but those 4 are definitely not the only "world class" midfielders. What about Dortmund, Juventus, Milan, United, Chelsea, City..

Nobody is going to agree on the definition but telling someone else that they're wrong when the topic of "world class" comes up is just pointless.

I agree. There are not just as many world class players as there are spots on a World XI + subs

Maximus Alexander

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

But that method is just as flawed, or not, as my way.

Your just taking a smaller sample.

A squad of 22, if you're playing 4-4-2, you just have to look at Barca and Bayern, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and say Schweinsteiger fill up all of the CM slots, but those 4 are definitely not the only "world class" midfielders. What about Dortmund, Juventus, Milan, United, Chelsea, City..

Nobody is going to agree on the definition but telling someone else that they're wrong when the topic of "world class" comes up is just pointless.

Well somebody needs to be right and wrong and the term needs to be properly defined, or else people need to stop using it as it has no meaning. Which is why I hate when it's used.

That said, my definition allows for more than the 4 you mentioned because I didn't say they would be in the squad, just that you would consider them. Any player that merits discussion for inclusion in that squad would be world class by my definition.

If your four were so far ahead of everyone else that there was no discussion to be had, then yes there would only be four "world class" midfielders in the world. But if there were another ten or twenty anywhere close to them, then there would be 14 or 24.

MagicMarker

bucketybuck wrote: »

World class means the best in the world. The best. Not the top 20 or 30 in each position or whatever it takes to make your opinion seem correct

No, that's just an equally retarded definition of world class.

Edit: In fact your definition is more retarded.

Rayne Wooney

MagicMarker wrote: »

No, that's just an equally retarded definition of world class.

Edit: In fact your definition is more retarded.

Will you give your unretarded definition then? I'm open to correction

mewe

There's no set amount of players when it comes to defining world class players. Its all personal opinion anyways. Scholes was world class. Ozil is world class,Messi,Ronaldo,Iniesta,RVP. Ya could be here all day namin players ya thought were world class.

bucketybuck

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Exactly my point, arguably the two best midfielders of the generation and probably two of the best we'll ever see and you put it against Fletcher that he didn't get in the team but Evra did.


So I'll ask you again for the third time, you seem quick to dismiss other opinions yet slow to share your own, how do you determine world class?

You're seriously saying to me that there isn't 20 world class midfielders in the world today?

But you are the one who first mentioned Evra?

And slow to share my own? I did say what determined world class for me. The best of the best.

Heres an example. Name a world class left back, who is the best left back in the world? Is it Cole? Is it Lahm? Is it Evra? Alba?
I bet if you had to pick the best left back it would be one of them, or maybe one other I have forgotten. But, importantly, it won't be anybody outside that group. If you were to name Baines for example, most reasonable people would immediately say, "No, Cole and Lahm are better".

If you can make a case for being the best in your position in the world, then you are world class. If you can unambiguously say that a player is not near the best in the world, then he is not world class.

Go back to 2009. Was there a better left back in the world than Patrice Evra? No there wasn't, so he was world class. Was there a better midfielder in the world than Darren Fletcher? Yes there was, lots of them. Hell, he wasn't even the best at the club never mind in the world.

Rayne Wooney

bucketybuck wrote: »

Heres an example. Name a world class left back, who is the best left back in the world? Is it Cole? Is it Lahm? Is it Evra? Alba?
I bet if you had to pick the best left back it would be one of them, or maybe one other I have forgotten. But, importantly, it won't be anybody outside that group. If you were to name Baines for example, most reasonable people would immediately say, "No, Cole and Lahm are better".

Marcelo, Alves?

So let me get this straight. Baines isn't world class because Lahm is better, and Lahm is better than Alba, so Lahm is world class an Alba is not?

keane2097

If your definition of world class includes Fletcher at any stage in his career it becomes a pretty much meaningless phrase, not that it isn't close to one anyway.

Fletcher at his best was the very definition of a journeyman midfielder. Honest, hard-working, fairly effective but obviously limited.

Will I Amnt

keane2097 wrote: »

If your definition of world class includes Fletcher at any stage in his career it becomes a pretty much meaningless phrase, not that it isn't close to one anyway.

Fletcher at his best was the very definition of a journeyman midfielder. Honest, hard-working, fairly effective but obviously limited.

Ah here. Don't be using ambiguous words in your response to an ambiguous phrase :pac:

Winston Payne

Workmanlike is the phrase I'd use for Fletcher, seeing as he's been at one club for his entire career.

Rayne Wooney

Winston Payne wrote: »

Workmanlike is the phrase I'd use for Fletcher, seeing as he's been at one club for his entire career.

Another ambiguous phrase really, that implies he doesn't inspire his teammates which isn't true, great captain for Scotland.


Anyway just 9 and a bit hours and all of the rabble of the last few weeks will be gone, so long international week. I hope we play good team football and Moyes plays Kagawa, Nani and Zaha at some stage.