Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 mod warning post#7259

Mars Bar

Moyes about Bobby Charlton

"I found his company great. After every game he comes into the dressing room and talks with us for a few moments."

That's class from Bobby. It must great being a young player in the dressing room and Bobby walks in.

Will I Amnt

master-t wrote: »

Was talking with a friend last night about a theory, or more of a comparison, between Moyes and Rogers and how they are moulding their own teams.


It stemmed from a quote from Moyes a week or two ago regarding it taking him 2 years to shape the United team 'His Way'.


Now, I used Brendan Rogers at Liverpool as my comparison. For a few reasons. I like his style of football. I loved how he got Swansea playing (Laudrup has possibly even taking them on further) but Rogers got them there. Then I looked at when he went to Liverpool. He said '2 years' to get his imprint on the team.


Moyes and Rogers are not world's apart in terms of their management challenge. Both decent managers, yet unproven at the top, who find themselves at their biggest test of the careers managing Global clubs.


Let's look at what Rogers did in his first year at Liverpool.


That summer, he went back to his old club, and bought a CM Joe Allen. He trusted him and rated him. He also went and bought Borini as he didn't rate Carroll and let him go on loan. Other than that, the only player he actually ran the rule over in terms of selling, was Adam. The rest were already done. He also gave youth a big chance - Sterling, Suso and Wisdom sticking out the most.


Then in the winter, more slow building and shaping. He brings in Sturridge and Coutinho. Nothing radical.


They played decent football, improvement on last year and finish 7th.


In his second season, he begins to really make the shape his own. He moves out Downing, Carroll, Spearing, Shelvey, Pepe, Carra retires - somewhat radical changes. He brings in Aspas, Mignolet, Toure, Alberto, Sakho. He has changed the way they press the ball and how the attack through the channels. They now look quite bright, confident and to be fair, are playing decent football in the early stages of the season.


Moyes?


First season does nothing radical at all in terms of change. Background team - but expected.


Goes to his old club, gets Fellaini. A CM he trusts and knows will add steal to our midfield. Keeps some 'questionable' players around but does not move them on yet. He gets to know his team from now until Winter, then I suspect we will see some more movements.


Why this comparison? Because i believe they are similar situations. I think both managers wanted to avoid a massive upheaval of players in their first season. Look at when it happens at a club - they do awful. Top half / bottom half team - they struggle with 10 new signings. These managers avoid the big changes, and slowly implement and adapt.

Predicted similarities?


- We will move for a player or two in Jan
- We will see Giggs step retire this season
- Moyes will begin making wholesale changes in the summer clearing out 3/4 names
- He will begin to build his empire

Brendan Rodgers did not implement that style of football at Swansea.

Mitch Connor

Nuts102 wrote: »

Who are these 3 or 4 players you think will be gone. Name 3 or 4 players from the squad who should be gone. I can't think of anybody besides Buttner who is not good enough for the squad. Other than that i can't think of anybody who deserves to go.

Giggs, Buttner, Anderson, Young/Valencia. Could see Rio or Vidic moving on. The pursuit of Baines/Coentrao would indicate Evra could be surplus to Moyes' requirements. I think Lindegaard could also move for first team football. Could also see Hernandez looking to move for first team football if he remains on the bench for Rooney/RVP.

Mitch Connor

Julez wrote: »

The 40 includes the book, I think thats what he means.

Ah right - it is the same for all the other talks Fergie is doing as well - not just an Easons thing.

Personally I am happy to get a signed copy of the book - would have got it anyway.

jamesbere

Phew got one ticket, Easons website is terrible they obviously didn't allow for demand and the website couldn't handle it. It wouldn't let you buy 2 if I knew that at the start I could of bought one and tried again. 10:14:34 was the time I got the ticket must have been last one

Mitch Connor

Mars Bar wrote: »

That's class from Bobby. It must great being a young player in the dressing room and Bobby walks in.

Would they care? If you are not a United fan Bobby Charlton probably doesn't mean a lot to you - could be seen as just some oul' fella who comes in for a chat after the games. I would say Cleverley or Welbeck might take something from it, but Smalling? Jones? Rafael? not so sure. Charlton isn't a legend of their youth.

Julez

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Ah right - it is the same for all the other talks Fergie is doing as well - not just an Easons thing.

Personally I am happy to get a signed copy of the book - would have got it anyway.

Yeah same, I'd imagine the book would be 20 odd anyway. Sure I'm sure you wouldn't have too much trouble selling a signed copy of the book if you didn't want two anyway.

Your Airbag

Tonight will be the start of a new type of test for Moyes. UTD are expected to get out of the group and although he was in the UCL before with Everton it was an achievement just getting there.

I have noticed his body language on the bench so far for UTD. He doesn't seem half as animated as he did with Everton, especially at home. At Everton he was up and shouting at his players from the touchline. He looks a bit subdued so far at UTD, against palace his celebrations were to clap from his seat. Its like he doesn't want to draw to much attention to himself yet and is a little nervous still.

This is all understandable. The preformance against palace was not great, Fergie was also present and the UTD players may need less shouting at than the Everton lads but I want Moyes to own the bench and his role at UTD. I remember him taking no BS at Everton. He berated a player in front of the cameras who showed some petulance at being taken off. He may not need to do this at UTD but I want to see him strut around like a boss a bit more and really own the role. This is UTD, there is no place for modesty imo, own it David.

Hopefully a home win tonight will settle him down even more and when we get back to 1st place in the league he will be high on confidence enough to guide us to another title.

I wish him luck on his European adventure.

WIZE

Sold out now

master-t

Nuts102 wrote: »

Who are these 3 or 4 players you think will be gone. Name 3 or 4 players from the squad who should be gone. I can't think of anybody besides Buttner who is not good enough for the squad. Other than that i can't think of anybody who deserves to go.

United have a talented squad all over it's what wins leagues. Rodgers had to come in and clear a load of deadwood left over from the previous managers, players who are not near the quality needed.

Also a big difference is Moyes was left a squad that are the reigning champions. I don't see what big radical changes he will have to make that Rodgers made. He doesn't need a plan to stamp his mark on the club. All he needs is implementing a few of his own ideas into an already well run club. Rodgers came into a club in a total mess and had to build from the bottom. Comparing them is completely pointless imo.

Really? You think Anderson / Valencia / Buttner / Giggs / Rio(age) / Lindegarrd are still going to be at United next season should Moyes go signing players? I don't think so at all.


If you think Anderson is United 'quality' you need to rethink.


Moyes was left a United squad that won the league? That didn't stop fans screaming out for signings? I really believe they are very similar situations, or templates even. One club trying to regain the title, one club trying to break back into Europe, but both the same template. Small changes in the first season, increased change in the second.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Brendan Rodgers did not implement that style of football at Swansea.

I believe it was started by Martinez, but Rogers took them onto another level did he not? Sousa certainly took them backwards.

dcr22B

WIZE wrote: »

Sold out now

You're kidding me

Their website is a joke, kept trying to get at least one and the payment system couldn't cope with it!

Maximus Alexander

I didn't get a ticket

Giggsy11

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would they care? If you are not a United fan Bobby Charlton probably doesn't mean a lot to you - could be seen as just some oul' fella who comes in for a chat after the games. I would say Cleverley or Welbeck might take something from it, but Smalling? Jones? Rafael? not so sure. Charlton isn't a legend of their youth.

Bobby Charlton is an all time great footballer and any young player would be excited to meet him, just like any young player would love to meet Di Stefano even though you are not Madrid fan.

bullvine

Damn it missed out on two tickets. Forgot they were on sale today. If any become available or if you need to sell them, if you could keep me in mind, thanks!

v3ttel

The Easons website is a complete shambles. Got sorted in the end, I think. Pity there is no meet and great.

Sold out in 17 mins, when a lot of people probably had to go through the booking procedure twice. Nice.

MagicMarker

Easons saying sold out now.

€40 is too steep tbh, I'd rather have the option of buying the book.

Devia

Absolute muppetry by Easons. My mate was supposed to get us both tickets but only let him order one. So by the time I got on they were sold out.

Backstreet Moyes

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Giggs, Buttner, Anderson, Young/Valencia. Could see Rio or Vidic moving on. The pursuit of Baines/Coentrao would indicate Evra could be surplus to Moyes' requirements. I think Lindegaard could also move for first team football. Could also see Hernandez looking to move for first team football if he remains on the bench for Rooney/RVP.

Out all the players you mentioned i don't think anybody besides Buttner is deadwood and should go. All the rest of them like all other seasons will play a role over the season.


Giggs will probably retire hopefully but he still has a role to play this season.
Buttner try him on the wing never want to see him lb should go.
Anderson as pointed out is a Moyes type player and we don't need to sell cm players.
Young/Valencia who can we get rid of that can come in replace them. Young is not as bad as made out he has done well for United is a good squad player can play a number of positions. Valencia if can recover form will be brilliant and i doubt he is on huge wages.
Vidic i don't see moving and Ferdinand if managed properly can get at least another season in a bit part role.

Mars Bar

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would they care? If you are not a United fan Bobby Charlton probably doesn't mean a lot to you - could be seen as just some oul' fella who comes in for a chat after the games. I would say Cleverley or Welbeck might take something from it, but Smalling? Jones? Rafael? not so sure. Charlton isn't a legend of their youth.

Smalling and Jones I'd hope would get something from it with them being English and all. They'd have heard the stories and seen the footage.

Soldie

How do you think we'll shape up tonight?

Would like to see Fellaini, Kagawa and Nani feature. Also hoping Valencia and Young do not feature.

MagicMarker

Soldie wrote: »

How do you think we'll shape up tonight?

Would like to see Fellaini, Kagawa and Nani feature. Also hoping Valencia and Young do not feature.

Nani is suspended and Kagawa is sick.

Mitch Connor

Soldie wrote: »

How do you think we'll shape up tonight?

Would like to see Fellaini, Kagawa and Nani feature. Also hoping Valencia and Young do not feature.

Would like to see those three but Nani is suspended and kagawa may not be fit (might not be over the flu) so I would say there is a very good chance we will see the same basic 11 we had on Saturday, but with Fellaini in for Anderson. Maybe Rafael in for Fabio.

Cantona's Collars

Can't see Moyes playing anything other than his strongest available XI,his first match in the CL with United isn't a time to experiment.

Soldie

Forgot about Nani's suspension. Kagawa trained yesterday so he might start on the bench.

I'd say the back four will remain unchanged and that Rooney and van Persie will start up top. I'd also be surprised not to see Carrick and Fellaini start in the middle so I suppose it's just a question of the wingers really (if you can call our lot that).

master-t

Nuts102 wrote: »

Out all the players you mentioned i don't think anybody besides Buttner is deadwood and should go. All the rest of them like all other seasons will play a role over the season.


Giggs will probably retire hopefully but he still has a role to play this season.
Buttner try him on the wing never want to see him lb should go.
Anderson as pointed out is a Moyes type player and we don't need to sell cm players.
Young/Valencia who can we get rid of that can come in replace them. Young is not as bad as made out he has done well for United is a good squad player can play a number of positions. Valencia if can recover form will be brilliant and i doubt he is on huge wages.
Vidic i don't see moving and Ferdinand if managed properly can get at least another season in a bit part role.

You are missing the whole point of the original idea. It was that Moyes would be bringing in players and shipping out some others. To which it was highlighted that the likes of Anderson, Valencia, Young, Buttner etc would then be considered surplus.


At no point was it suggested Moyes would just sell all these players and not bring anyone in.

Cantona's Collars

Anybody see Carragher being schooled by Neville on MNF last night as he tried to claim Gerrard & Lampard were better than Scholes?

Carragher just came out of the argument looking bitter & biased.

master-t

zerks wrote: »

Anybody see Carragher being schooled by Neville on MNF last night as he tried to claim Gerrard & Lampard were better than Scholes?

Carragher just came out of the argument looking bitter & biased.

His 'No one wants to grow up an be a Gary Neville' line was gold in fairness

Mitch Connor

zerks wrote: »

Anybody see Carragher being schooled by Neville on MNF last night as he tried to claim Gerrard & Lampard were better than Scholes?

Carragher just came out of the argument looking bitter & biased.

Loved the bit where he said something like: "Dont get me wrong, come away from England training and asked who the best player I have played with - Paul scholes hands down by a million miles". So you are arguing Gerrard AND Lampard are better because.....

IamtheWalrus

master-t wrote: »

His 'No one wants to grow up an be a Gary Neville' line was gold in fairness

Call me a cynical old bastard but I have a feeling the 'banta' between those 2 might be scripted in parts. The burglar quips seemed too quick-witty for those 2. Maybe if one had made a quip it might have been believable but a quick-witty jibe AND similar retort, unlikely.

Irish94

It was a great debate, worth watching if you haven't seen it yet.

I love when Carraagher says - '' Gary don't sit on the fence, I know it's your mate Scholesy, come on ''

Blatter

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Loved the bit where he said something like: "Dont get me wrong, come away from England training and asked who the best player I have played with - Paul scholes hands down by a million miles". So you are arguing Gerrard AND Lampard are better because.....

Also loved the bit where he said 'why did Sven put Scholes on the left and Gerrard + Lampard in the centre?'

Eh, maybe it had something to do with him being a ****e manager?

Mitch Connor

Blatter wrote: »

Also loved the bit where he said 'why did Sven put Scholes on the left and Gerrard + Lampard in the centre?'

Eh, maybe it had something to do with him being a ****e manager?

"Why did Benitez and Houllier play Gerrard on the right?"

PhlegmyMoses

Mitch Connor wrote: »

"Why did Benitez and Houllier play Gerrard on the right?"

"Why did Ferguson buy Veron?"

To play in midfield behind Scholes? Who got kept in the end? What did Veron say about paying with Scholes?

kryogen

Mitch Connor wrote: »

"Why did Benitez and Houllier play Gerrard on the right?"

Carragher came out of it looking a bit dim tbh

What order you put them in? "Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes"

followed by

"Scholes best player I played with, hands down"

"Why did Fergie buy Veron? if Scholes was so good"

Some excellent soundbites there!

Julez

Yeah TBF I think Carragher is very good but he didn't back up his points very well. Did Scholes win games? Yes he did, and a whole load of medals more than Gerrard and Lampard combined!

kryogen

Julez wrote: »

Yeah TBF I think Carragher is very good but he didn't back up his points very well. Did Scholes win games? Yes he did, and a whole load of medals more than Gerrard and Lampard combined!

You would swear Lamps and Gerrard won games all by themselves, defended themselves, passed to themselves, made runs for themselves, created space for themselves and finally finished off the chances they created, themselves!

Team game like, do individuals raise the level of a team? Yes I think so, but to say that Gerrard and Lampard "won" games for their teams and Scholes didn't is just idiotic tbh

IvySlayer

Carragher said Scholes never scores important goals...his screamer vs Barcelona :P

That said it's a silly argument, Scholes and Gerrard are different players. Gerrards best position is behind the striker

kryogen

IvySlayer wrote: »

Carragher said Scholes never scores important goals...his screamer vs Barcelona :P

That said it's a silly argument, Scholes and Gerrard are different players. Gerrards best position is behind the striker

Yeah, they really are very different players.

Carra came out with a lot of tripe last night, but he is still learning I guess and will get better at getting his point across I suppose

PhlegmyMoses

Also Scholes never needed to be our game winner or focal point like Gerrard had to be at Liverpool. We always had multiple game winners at the club so the burden was shared.

bullvine

Scholes also had Keane beside him, who overshadowed him a lot of the time. Gerrard and Lampard never had anyone for a prolonged period of time beside them as good as them.

wheres me jumpa

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Also Scholes never needed to be our game winner

Controlling the flow of the game for 90 minutes rarely gets the headlines it should!

WIZE

Easons Update


We sincerely apologise to our customers for the technical glitch that occurred on our website this morning with regard to tickets for the Alex Ferguson event on 8th November in the Convention Centre, Dublin.

We fully realise that some of our customers who wanted to purchase two tickets for the event were unable to do so and could only purchase one ticket. Demand for the tickets was extremely high and the event is sold out.

We will be contacting all those who purchased a ticket to the event in due course.

Cypher_sounds

Is this Sami Hyypia's first season as manager? At least we have the more experienced manager tonight.

KH25

Honestly, I thought Carragher would be a good analyst. He's still learning and in time Im sure he'll be very good but last night was ridiculous. If he honestly believes that Gerrad and Lampard are better players than Scholes then thats fine. He's entitled to believe that. But he completely failed to back up his argument properly. It really came across as though he was taking a dig at United for no real reason.

Gerrard and Lampard are both very good players but Neville was right, comparing them to Scholes doesn't work. Scholes at his best played deeper and dictated games. Gerrard and Lampard are both well known for playing further forward and scoring more goals. They are 2 different positions. I think Gerrard has adapted his game to be able to play deeper in recent seasons, but I don't see that happening with Lampard, at least not as effectively.

Carragher needs to leave his personal attachment to Liverpool at the door to do his job effectively. He will always be a bit biased towards Liverpool regardless but thats understandable. If he wants to make comments like last night then he needs to be able to back them up when questioned. Neville caught him out brilliantly when he asked why Houlier played Gerrard on the right. He didn't have a response to that. (as far as I can remember from the video) It was just unnecessary.

Red Crow

kryogen wrote: »

Yeah, they really are very different players.

Carra came out with a lot of tripe last night, but he is still learning I guess and will get better at getting his point across I suppose

He was rubbish. He's an awful pundit.

IvySlayer

Do they try and fuel debates to get more people to watch it? I love Nevilles analysis. Who's next for the show? Giggs?

I hope Scholes considers coaching, what is he up to nowadays?

And what Carragher said is wrong, everyone wanted to be Roberto Carlos

mewe

Yeah i thought Carragher would be a good addition to the panel aswell but i just think he looks awkward and uncomfortable most of the time.

Anyone else notice this talkin with his hands the whole time thing aswell? It's a good laugh once ya take note of it!

Pro. F

Shane St. wrote: »

Any German football connoisseurs amongst us? How good are these Leverkusen side?

Don't know about connoisseur, but I do like a bit of Bundesliga so here's my thoughts:

Laverkusen are very strong in the middle with Bender and Reinartz (I would have been happy if Moyes had bought either of them in the summer). Sydney Sam is a real threat bringing the ball forward and they can cut teams open. Reinartz gives great protection to the back four but, like a lot of German teams, they can concede sloppy goals at times.

It will be a difficult game. Although Bender might not be fit apparently. If he's out that is a massive blow for them.

Re the Neville Carragher debate:

It seems to me like Neville hasn't quite got to the point of saying or understooding (I don't know which it is) how average Lampard and Gerrard are as central midfielders. He was talking about how good Scholes was at controlling the possession, but he never seemed to go on and say how the other two are poor at it. And he never got to the point of saying that Lampard and Gerrard's best position is ACM not CM.

intellectual dosser

Pro. F wrote: »

Re the Neville Carragher debate:

It seems to me like Neville hasn't quite got to the point of saying or understooding (I don't know which it is) how average Lampard and Gerrard are as central midfielders. He was talking about how good Scholes was at controlling the possession, but he never seemed to go on and say how the other two are poor at it. And he never got to the point of saying that Lampard and Gerrard's best position is ACM not CM.

Last night wasn't a fair fight. With Neville being a coach with the England set up he could never be overly negative or critical of Lampard or Gerrard, all he could do was talk about Scholes' qualities.

If he had have talked about Lampard/Gerrard the way Carragher brushed Scholes aside, the media would be questioning his position as coach.

xtal191

Class Nick Powell video