Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 mod warning post#7259

Dicky Pride

This some people need to calm down crap is starting to annoy me. Our worst start to a season since 1989 and Moyes is in the paper saying we won't win the champions league cause our players aren't good enough. I wonder what point is it acceptable to admit that our back room staff is WAY too inexperienced (Seemingly from a PR point of view as well as a management and coaching one), and Man Utd could finish mid table this year?

Lord TSC

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Our main two rivals have also been rubbish to start off with and can't get it together yet either.

[...]

We'll be fine as long as our main rivals don't slip too far ahead during that time.

This is what's worrying me though. If not for City and Chelsea having miserable starts to the season as well, would people be as calm? The reason we won by such a margin last year was they had a bad run as well, but we capitalized on it. When they dropped points, we went out and got three. At the moment, City could have been realistically 9 points ahead of us, if they hadn't choked at Villa, Stoke and Cardiff. Arsenal, meanwhile, ARE 9 points ahead of us. Spurs ARE 6 points. Chelsea are grinding out results despite not having a proper striker.

We're apparently going to have to rely on luck that those teams start and continue dropping points.

I get people don't want to go like Chelsea and City, and start sacking managers who have achieved a level of success but not that much success. (And I'll preface this again by saying I am not advocating Moyes being sacked either. Just outlining my fears right now). But where those clubs are mocked is when they start sacking managers who were successful for the club and were achieving near their goals but falling slightly short. City sacked Mancini after he won the league once and came second twice. Chelsea sacked RDM despite winning a CL, sacked Benitez despite winning the Europa League. Clubs that are mocked are ones who set goals and only just miss them. We've already had to set back the goals once.

My worry is that I find there's far too many people who seem to think we absolutely cannot even consider the idea that Moyes is in over his head (again, see above preface). "Fergie said get behind him". "We can't be like other clubs". "We have to give him two seasons". That's going, imo, too far the other direction.

Before the season started, I'd have said Top 3 was minimum, and if we came third, it was a close race with Chelsea and City. Close. Right now, it's looking like people are adjusting to a possible top 4 finish, which acknowledges Arsenal and Spurs have improved.

But if we say now that our goal is a Top 4 finish, when do we reevaluate those goals again? What if at Xmas, we're still in the middle of the table, can we panic then? Are we not allowed discuss our worries until the final whistle is blown after game 38, even if it's obvious we're in trouble at game 28? Yesterday we started what most considered a run of 5 games where we could get 15 points....and we've fallen at the first hurdle. We had a game against Liverpool which some dubbed a "Must win". I wonder what would have happened had we lost the "must win"?

I don't want to be a team who over-reacts. But under-reacting could be a problem too. I don't want to be a team who goes "Ah, it'll be grand" as we slip down the table and re-live former glories. 6 games in, there's a trend developing; 7 points out of 18, 0 goals scored from open play in the last 5 games (where would we be without Rooney's set pieces; Jesus, can't believe I thought I wanted him gone over the summer :rolleyes:). Losses to two of our biggest rivals already. All this despite addressing the biggest weakness in Fergie's squad.

I say this because I want pressure on Moyes to succeed. I want him to figure out a way to start winning games we should be winning. But while I stress I don't want him gone, I personally wouldn't be hugely happy seeing him bomb the season and proving he's way out of his depth. He needs to figure out a way to turn things round and quick, because right now he is failing at his job.

The_Kew_Tour

From experience changing a manager right now would be a total disaster.

I hope Moyes is still the manager come May and I am certain he will along with us having at very worst top 3 finish.

I believe Moyes will come good.

Kilkenny14

What is worrying is Moyes and his use of Kagawa. He doesn't seem to have gotten a grasp on what he offers and what he can do for the team.

Also, Zaha must be closer to playing seeing how badly Valencia and Young are doing.

Still, I have faith in Moyes. He can turn this around.

dahat

Kilkenny14 wrote: »

What is worrying is Moyes and his use of Kagawa. He doesn't seem to have gotten a grasp on what he offers and what he can do for the team.

Also, Zaha must be closer to playing seeing how badly Valencia and Young are doing.

Still, I have faith in Moyes. He can turn this around.

Moyes to me does not fancy Kagawa as a player for whatever reason,i think he will move on this summer,us as fans will be flaming but if Moyes does not like him there ain't anything we can do.
Kagawa'a biggest problem was RVP signing which called a halt to Kagawa playing behind Rooney.

The_Kew_Tour

We are not even into October yet.

Our run so far has been toughest of the lot. Losing 3 games is far from ideal, but some people here need to get a reality check.

Losing to City and Liverpool in the same season has happened a couple of times even when we have won the league. The difference is that they did not come in the first 6 weeks.

Listen there has been positives so far too.

At least give him till Christmas. give him that much.

Lord TSC

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

We are not even into October yet.

Our run so far has been toughest of the lot. Losing 3 games is far from ideal, but some people here need to get a reality check.

Losing to City and Liverpool in the same season has happened a couple of times even when we have won the league. The difference is that they did not come in the first 6 weeks.

Listen there has been positives so far too.

At least give him till Christmas. give him that much.

What are the positives? Not being snarky, just curious.

It's not the losses to Pool and City alone that's causing panic. It was the "head in the sand, ah we were grand" attitude after the Pool game. It's a loss to West Brom at Old Trafford. A lack of goals from open play. For some, a turmoil in the transfer market. And the fact that if not for the fact Chelsea and City were also making a rag of things, we'd be way behind them too. A lack of form from players, and a tactical mindset which is confusing at best.

So what were the positives?

newballsplease

People asking why Kagawa was taken off yesterday or why Moyes doesnt play him....
Kagawa is not suited to playing on the left like he was yesterday or against pool.
Kagawas position is slap bang where Rooney plays. i.e he doesnt fit in.
Unfortunatly.
People will argue why Moyes didnt move Rooney up top and kagawa behind yesterday, im not sure if that suits Rooney.
Either way, attacking from the left or right of midfield is not Kagawas position.

The_Kew_Tour

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

What are the positives? Not being snarky, just curious.

So what were the positives?

Giving a chance to Januazj. Actually playing well at home in Europe. Actually willing to give fringe players a chance. Trying to solve the horrendous CM we have had for 3 seasons.

Keeping Rooney
Keeping Evra
Keeping Nani

Actually we look much more likely to score goals and bar yesterday and Liverpool are creating more chances than what I saw under Fergie.

bbability

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

What are the positives? Not being snarky, just curious.

It's not the losses to Pool and City alone that's causing panic. It was the "head in the sand, ah we were grand" attitude after the Pool game. It's a loss to West Brom at Old Trafford. A lack of goals from open play. For some, a turmoil in the transfer market. And the fact that if not for the fact Chelsea and City were also making a rag of things, we'd be way behind them too. A lack of form from players, and a tactical mindset which is confusing at best.

So what were the positives?

The positives are Moyes is not thinking short term, he's having a good look at the squad and let's be honest there's a lot do passengers hanging around. There's even one or two on the pitch notably Rio Ferdinand who has just been awful. On top of that hell have no new players to add to the squad until January. Sorry to say it but this is not an overnight fix. Give Moyes a chance. Look at Madrid derby last night.. It just seems to be one of those seasons so far.

Alpha Dog 1

Lads trust me, get behind the the team and the manager, Moyes can pull us through this.
We are Manchester United not a joke shop football club like Chelsea run by a dictatorship.

Look at arsenal, everyone wanted wenger out when they lost the opening game of the season, look where they are now.

We have had a tough set of fixtures, Moyes got it wrong yesterday by thinking he could win by putting out half the reserves. It's too early in the season to be rotating players, he is not Alex ferguson, he realises this now and won't make the same mistakes again.

Give him until the end of the season at least, if things have not improved then his position needs to be looked at but Ed Woodward still has a lot to answer for in my opinion.

The_Kew_Tour

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Lads trust me, get behind the the team and the manager, Moyes can pull us through this.
We are Manchester United not a joke shop football club like Chelsea run by a dictatorship.

Look at arsenal, everyone wanted wenger out when they lost the opening game of the season, look where they are now.

We have had a tough set of fixtures, Moyes got it wrong yesterday by thinking he could win by putting out half the reserves. It's too early in the season to be rotating players, he is not Alex ferguson, he realises this now and won't make the same mistakes again.

Give him until the end of the season at least, if things have not improved then his position needs to be looked at but Ed Woodward still has a lot to answer for in my opinion.

I agree.

I hoped we would be better than this.

Some people have lost the plot. Well 1 or 2 anyway;)

firemansam4

Wow as a liverpool fan i cant believe some of the over reaction from some of your fans so early into the season.
How many times in the past have ye had been behind other teams early in the season by quite a fair few points then come back and win the leaugue that season? As much as i hate to say it, i would be very suprised if ye aint within a chance of winning the leauge in the last 2 games of this season

CSF

Talk of sacking is fairly premature, because every manager deserves a proper chance once hired and I don't think Moyes has had that yet.

I do think it was a mistake to hire him in the first place though, because I don't and never have rated him as a manager and United are a club who could have almost anyone.

Unearthly

More negative comments from Moyes about the CL. I'm sorry lads but its not looking good, you can tell he still has his midtable mentality

Dicky Pride

"I still believe Moyes can do it"

I need to know what people are basing this belief on.

GSPfan

People are just worried. We have never known this sort of pressure before. It doesn't feel like we are moving in the right direction either.
People will calm down if and when Moyes gets the ship steadied.

You cant blame people for being vocal on this subject. It was the same with the transfer window. Some people claimed we were doing everything wrong and others shot down their criticism as hyperbole and nonsense but they were infact 100% right.

Anyway. Pochettino for next United manager.

Newtown90

Rarely post here but these comments of Moyes saying United can't win the Champs Lg is the final straw for me, lost respect for the lad.

Fine if he thinks it himself but don't say it in public and let the opposition know! He's at one of the biggest clubs in the world! Had the chance to work with the best coaching staff in England and let them all go! Brought in this Everton ethos of mid table will do! F**k that!!

If he's giving off bad vibes the players aren't going to give a toss!

I wanted Klopp to take the reigns! He wouldn't be saying this ****e! And kagawa certainly wouldn't have been a bit part player!

Losing interest fast in soccer with this happening.

Lord TSC

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Giving a chance to Januazj. Actually playing well at home in Europe. Actually willing to give fringe players a chance. Trying to solve the horrendous CM we have had for 3 seasons.

Keeping Rooney
Keeping Evra
Keeping Nani

Actually we look much more likely to score goals and bar yesterday and Liverpool are creating more chances than what I saw under Fergie.

It's great that Januzaj is getting a chance but his introduction, or rather his introduction at the expense of Kagawa yesterday, hurt the team. We can't say we're playing well at home in Europe when we've played 1 game; you talk about people basing negative opinions on a short run of 6 games but try and push a single game as an example of a positive. That;s not fair. Fringe players are getting a chance and that's great, but it strikes me as amazing that a positive is he's giving players a chance; that should be expected. On top of that, Kagawa's "chance" was cut quite short yesterday, Hernandez got pulled off fair quick when things went slightly wrong. And he only gave them a chance because he was coming under scrutiny for poor performances and bad team selections.

And there's no reward for creating chances and looking likely to score goals.

I also am getting frustrated with this attitude of "Ah sure look at them, their nuts for advocating a sacking", when only a troll or two have actually advocated that. It's creating strawman arguments to make the fears look less credible. I'm all for giving him the season, but if, for example and touch wood it doesn't happen, he loses another 3 in our next six, and we're sitting midtable at Xmas, are we still meant to carry on as if it's all ok?

To me, saying "We HAVE to give him the season, no matter what, it's a disgrace people are annoyed" is as bad as saying "Sack him now". I really hate the way some fans point blank refuse to accept people have a right to criticise or worry about what a manager is doing

The_Kew_Tour

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's great that Januzaj is getting a chance but his introduction, or rather his introduction at the expense of Kagawa yesterday, hurt the team. We can't say we're playing well at home in Europe when we've played 1 game; you talk about people basing negative opinions on a short run of 6 games but try and push a single game as an example of a positive. That;s not fair. Fringe players are getting a chance and that's great, but it strikes me as amazing that a positive is he's giving players a chance; that should be expected. On top of that, Kagawa's "chance" was cut quite short yesterday, Hernandez got pulled off fair quick when things went slightly wrong. And he only gave them a chance because he was coming under scrutiny for poor performances and bad team selections.

And there's no reward for creating chances and looking likely to score goals.

I also am getting frustrated with this attitude of "Ah sure look at them, their nuts for advocating a sacking", when only a troll or two have actually advocated that. It's creating strawman arguments to make the fears look less credible. I'm all for giving him the season, but if, for example and touch wood it doesn't happen, he loses another 3 in our next six, and we're sitting midtable at Xmas, are we still meant to carry on as if it's all ok?

To me, saying "We HAVE to give him the season, no matter what, it's a disgrace people are annoyed" is as bad as saying "Sack him now". I really hate the way some fans point blank refuse to accept people have a right to criticise or worry about what a manager is doing

But you are basing this on a couple of games too.

Glenviewjf

Glenviewjf wrote: »

Rarely post here but these comments of Moyes saying United can't win the Champs Lg is the final straw for me, lost respect for the lad.

Fine if he thinks it himself but don't say it in public and let the opposition know! He's at one of the biggest clubs in the world! Had the chance to work with the best coaching staff in England and let them all go! Brought in this Everton ethos of mid table will do! F**k that!!

If he's giving off bad vibes the players aren't going to give a toss!

I wanted Klopp to take the reigns! He wouldn't be saying this ****e! And kagawa certainly wouldn't have been a bit part player!

Losing interest fast in soccer with this happening.

You are losing faith in soccer because.....

Moyes said utd cant win the CL, Klopp didn't get the job and Kagawa isn't being utilised properly


Were you really a bIG fan in the first place if a few games into the season when thiings aren't going well you are losing faith in the whole sport. The modern day fan eh

Lord TSC

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But you are basing this on a couple of games too.

Yes, six. And am getting responses of "It's too soon to judge". So my point is then it's hypocritical to THEN reply "But he's got us playing well in Europe", when it's only one game into that campaign (and he's going on not to expect too much in it).

Al Capwned

Leaving aside the PR implications, Moyes is correct in saying we'll not win the Champions League. We're a long way short of quite a few teams in Europe to be fair.

Will I Amnt

Glenviewjf wrote: »

Rarely post here but these comments of Moyes saying United can't win the Champs Lg is the final straw for me, lost respect for the lad.

Fine if he thinks it himself but don't say it in public and let the opposition know! He's at one of the biggest clubs in the world! Had the chance to work with the best coaching staff in England and let them all go! Brought in this Everton ethos of mid table will do! F**k that!!

If he's giving off bad vibes the players aren't going to give a toss!

I wanted Klopp to take the reigns! He wouldn't be saying this ****e! And kagawa certainly wouldn't have been a bit part player!

Losing interest fast in soccer with this happening.

Huge blow for the sport. I hope ESPN do a 3 hour special on you when you're gone.

There's a certain type of Manchester United fan that knows nothing only success. I was only a child myself when we were struggling to keep up in the league.

We were always going to have some bad times with all the change that went on over the Summer and I had written this season off before it began. There is obviously a limit in how far down the table we are the longer the season progresses but it's far too early to be even contemplating new names for the job. It's embarrassing really.

GSPfan

You dont have to be the best team in Europe to win the European Cup. Chelsea weren't. You just have to beat whoever is put in front of you and have a bit of luck.

Moyes is being a bit too dismissive too early. It's like he is talking everything down to spin it as a positive if we achieve mediocracy. I like him but a few wins and an exciting team would go a long way to calming my nerves.

VinylJunkie

Glenviewjf wrote: »

Losing interest fast in soccer with this happening.

Jaysis a few bad results an you're off?

tallaghtmick

**** sake Moyes SHUT UP! Saying in public we dont have enough world class players is an insult to the current squad and wont help with their confidence.

Alpha Dog 1

tallaghtmick wrote: »

**** sake Moyes SHUT UP! Saying in public we dont have enough world class players is an insult to the current squad and wont help with their confidence.

He is probably right in what he is saying but I still think we could possibly win the champions league but its a longshot.

I see his comments more or a jibe towards the board who did not back him in the transfer market like they would have back Fergie.
He could also be trying to downplay our chances and try the darkhorse approach.

Paul Tergat

tallaghtmick wrote: »

**** sake Moyes SHUT UP! Saying in public we dont have enough world class players is an insult to the current squad and wont help with their confidence.

He really isnt helping himself here

.jacksparrow.

Can see Ferguson coming back.

Alpha Dog 1

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Can see Ferguson coming back.

No chance, would love it but.....No Chance.

Gatling

One thing I don't get is people saying ah sure fergie lost a few games when he first took over so we should be patient with Moyes and give him a chance he's the 2nd coming ,now the reality Moyes inherited a multiple league winning team fergie didn't so that argument goes out the door straight away ,

Transfer debarcle and its looking like we could possibly loose adnan januzaj in either January or next summer theres worrying times a head

Backstreet Moyes

Just on yesterday he really made some errors. It's 6 games into the season we needed a win yesterday and he sent out a weakened team which was just stupid.

Jones is a horrible full back Rafael makes such a difference.

I have defended Rio but on current form he deserves to be dropped. Vidic should have played.

Buttner did well midweek but he is a very poor full back.

Fellaini not being on the pitch baffled me. The more games he gets beside Carrick the more their partnership will grow. Him being rested was very strange.

The Kagawa coming off at half time was bizarre.

All in all his team selections so far have been very poor. It seems everybody knows what our best 11 is besides the manager.

Backstreet Moyes

Gatling wrote: »

One thing I don't get is people saying ah sure fergie lost a few games when he first took over so we should be patient with Moyes and give him a chance he's the 2nd coming ,now the reality Moyes inherited a multiple league winning team fergie didn't so that argument goes out the door straight away ,

Transfer debarcle and its looking like we could possibly loose Adam janujzi

What are your basing losing Janjuaz on or are you just throwing it in to make things sound more negative.

Backstreet Moyes

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

No chance, would love it but.....No Chance.

Why would you love it. It would probably ruin the club in the future. What message does it give out to future managers if you struggle big Fergie will come downstairs to take your place. Would send a huge negative to potential future managers.

Gatling

Nuts102 wrote: »

What are your basing losing Janjuaz on or are you just throwing it in to make things sound more negative.

No city are chasing him and Moyes said during the week about him been influenced by others to move ,

Rayne Wooney

So Moyes admitted we don't have enough world class players in the team... that's only good if he now buys some world class players in the next two windows. It's bordering idiotic if he doesn't now.

Backstreet Moyes

It's not really an excuse the only positive thing i can come up with is our attacking four haven't played together yet. Once they get an understanding i expect things to improve going forward. But he needs to start picking these players first.

Backstreet Moyes

Gatling wrote: »

No city are chasing him and Moyes said during the week about him been influenced by others to move ,

Can you give me a decent source. City were chasing Pogba and Morrison it's lazy journalism. So can you give me a source besides somebody on twitter saying City are after him. Everytime Moyes has talked about him he said he was confident he would sign.

poolboy

More than a few similarities in my opinion to Moyes early days at utd and hodgsons at Liverpool I know from vastly different starting points but not knowing his best 11, playing players out of position and making silly comments that make fans pull their hair out to name a few. The difference is utd have ferguson upstairs to pull Moyes aside and tell him to forget the mid table mentality and remember he's not at Everton anymore. In short calm down January will tell if Moyes is learning or not and I fully expect ye to be well in it at that stage

homerjay2005

i thought things would be bad but even this is pushing it. 6 year contract my hole

tallaghtmick

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i thought things would be bad but even this is pushing it. 6 year contract my hole

Where you at the game Homer? Whats the local fans opinion?

Headshot

why do I watch Juve

Nolars

Did Moyes really say we dont have world class players and cat win the champions league? Even tho its true I find it weird he would say something like that.

Agueroooo

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i thought things would be bad but even this is pushing it. 6 year contract my hole

That 6yr contract was only for the makets as a show of stability.
If UTD start to slip (or threaten)below CL qualification standard then Moyes will be gone and pronto.

there are bills to.be paid and standards to be maintained. Moyes will be steam rolled like any other that fails at a PLC.

Loyalty will always lose out to revenues from here on in.

Tom.D.BJJ

Simply put, we have to accept that things are going to be different after changing manager. Different tactics and different coaching and hopefully some additions to the team in January. There will be a period of transition, but i guarantee you that our team are still good enough to challenge for the title. Moyes needs time. Fergie had bad results too and was given time at the start.

Very tough game coming up on Wednesday. Shaktar are a good attacking team. Please let Vidic/Rafael/Evra start.

Danye

kryogen wrote: »

Not a very good argument tbf, Im sure you can see why

Why?

J. Marston

Kilkenny14 wrote: »

What is worrying is Moyes and his use of Kagawa. He doesn't seem to have gotten a grasp on what he offers and what he can do for the team.

Also, Zaha must be closer to playing seeing how badly Valencia and Young are doing.

Still, I have faith in Moyes. He can turn this around.

Fergie hadn't a clue what to do with him either so I won't use that as a stick to beat Moyes with.

Yet.

YouTookMyName

You see, that right there is why Moyes will be a failure at Man Utd.

When a goal went in at OT, and the camera went to Ferguson, he sat there with a face like thunder. He scared the crap of the players. Imagine looking over at moyes face-rubbing and thinking "shít, we'd better play up now, lads".

It's your Roy Hodgson time now lads, you're in for a rough season.

Max_Charger

YouTookMyName wrote: »

You see, that right there is why Moyes will be a failure at Man Utd.

Because he reacts differently to a goal being scored than Ferguson? Are you serious?