WP8 - Privacy Concerns

cnocbui

I recently acquired a Nokia 720 but have decided not to use it as a phone as I am unhappy that WP8 is such a half-finished amateurish effort.

But leaving that aside, the nail in the coffin is how it deals with your contacts - namely uploading them to a server in the US without any option to prevent this or opt-out. We live in the EU with certain data protection laws. When your WP8 phone sends your personal information to the US, it is obviously no longer covered by EU legislation.

I was already a bit put-off that WP8 shares your location data with Microsoft for just about anything meaningful you want to do with it. Again, with no way to opt-out.

I think Nokia should put a sticker on the box and their website warning you that all of your personal information will be freely shared with the NSA and any US govt agency that wants it.

simi956

You seem to misinformed, all of your email and contacts with your Microsoft Account stays within EMEA, and the main data center is located Dublin for Microsoft in EMEA and the Fallover Data Center is in Amsterdam. See the URL when you signin to your Microsoft Account, it will say https://dub118.mail.live.com/ or someother random number other than 118

PaulieC

get your tinfoil hat off will ya. As mentioned above, all contacts in EMEA are stored in EMEA. Clondalkin to be precise.
Also, you are asked during setup about using your location and each app at install and update asks you can it use your location if required. If this is not too oblique for you, you can turn off location from settings.
All you need to do now is to make sure that the FFC is not secretly recording you and sending it to the NSA as you seem to be a bit worried about what the US security services are very concerned with who you know and where you are.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are out to get you...

mark_m360

I agree with what the two posts above have said. Also, you do realise that Android and iOS also use your location for almost everything yes? If you download anything from the Play store, it will indicate what you are agreeing to before downloading. Windows Phone is no different but gives you a clearer warning of what you are agreeing to.

All your contacts are saved onto Google's server and likewise with iOS.

Google stores your data longer than any other operator. Your NSA concerns relate to all large corporations, not just Microsoft.

cnocbui

mark_m360 wrote: »

I agree with what the two posts above have said. Also, you do realise that Android and iOS also use your location for almost everything yes? If you download anything from the Play store, it will indicate what you are agreeing to before downloading. Windows Phone is no different but gives you a clearer warning of what you are agreeing to.

All your contacts are saved onto Google's server and likewise with iOS.

Google stores your data longer than any other operator. Your NSA concerns relate to all large corporations, not just Microsoft.

Fair enough, I wouldn't know what Android and iOS do as I haven't used them beyond a Touch. Bada doesn't force you to upload your contacts anywhere or share location data. As for tinfoil hats. Anyone know of a Microsoft policy document I could read where it states that Microsoft does not forward any personal information stored on it's European based servers to servers based in the US? I can see I'm flogging a dead horse and the only response I am going to get is 'everyone puts up with it so you should too'; 'why are you worried unless you have something to hide'; 'your data is safe as it's only a server in Dublin and Amsterdam and..." etc, etc. I think sharing personal data should always be a matter of choice and I don't think WP8 should force these issues in order to use something you paid for, nor should any other OS.

Fingleberries

The European Commission’s Directive on Data Protection went into effect in October of 1998, and would prohibit the transfer of personal data to non-European Union countries that do not meet the European Union (EU) “adequacy” standard for privacy protection. While the United States and the EU share the goal of enhancing privacy protection for their citizens, the United States takes a different approach to privacy from that taken by the EU.

Under this European Union-US Safe Harbor agreement, which allows firms to export personal data about their customers to the US from Europe, many US companies routinely export data from EU locations to the US.

These include, but are not limited to:

• Microsoft
• Facebook
• Google
• Twitter
• Apple
• EA
• Sony

The full list can be searched on https://safeharbor.export.gov/list.aspx

Each company will have a privacy policy, e.g. Microsoft's is on http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-ie/fullnotice.mspx - Facebook is on https://www.facebook.com/safeharbor.php

Details of the Safe Harbor program are available http://export.gov/safeharbor/.

PaulieC

cnocbui wrote: »

Fair enough, I wouldn't know what Android and iOS do as I haven't used them beyond a Touch. Bada doesn't force you to upload your contacts anywhere or share location data. As for tinfoil hats. Anyone know of a Microsoft policy document I could read where it states that Microsoft does not forward any personal information stored on it's European based servers to servers based in the US? I can see I'm flogging a dead horse and the only response I am going to get is 'everyone puts up with it so you should too'; 'why are you worried unless you have something to hide'; 'your data is safe as it's only a server in Dublin and Amsterdam and..." etc, etc. I think sharing personal data should always be a matter of choice and I don't think WP8 should force these issues in order to use something you paid for, nor should any other OS.

You are not forced. You can choose not to sign in (or create) a Microsoft account and then they can't save your contacts anywhere.

cnocbui

That is true, except that means you can't use the app store so your smart phone is no more use than a feature phone. These issues aren't exactly clearly spelt out on the box before you buy the device.

It's a bit like saying you can avoid any problems just by not ever turning it on.

Also, the EU has decided to conduct it's own review of Safeharbor due to concerns that it isn't... safe.

http://www.privacy-europe.com/blog/safe-harbor-program-will-remain-safe-harbor/

The whole Safeharbor was a load of nonsense from the get go as it only governed access to and use of your personal information by private companies while the US government can always gain access to it via secret court order.

kayos

cnocbui wrote: »

That is true, except that means you can't use the app store so your smart phone is no more use than a feature phone. These issues aren't exactly clearly spelt out on the box before you buy the device.

Does the iPhone box say you must buy every app you want from iTunes? Can you buy anything from iTunes without an account and therefore give them personal details? Same goes for Google Play store.

mark_m360

cnocbui wrote: »

That is true, except that means you can't use the app store so your smart phone is no more use than a feature phone. These issues aren't exactly clearly spelt out on the box before you buy the device.

It's a bit like saying you can avoid any problems just by not ever turning it on.

Also, the EU has decided to conduct it's own review of Safeharbor due to concerns that it isn't... safe.

http://www.privacy-europe.com/blog/safe-harbor-program-will-remain-safe-harbor/

The whole Safeharbor was a load of nonsense from the get go as it only governed access to and use of your personal information by private companies while the US government can always gain access to it via secret court order.

You must have an account with Google before accessing the app store or any of your contacts, you must have an account with Apple before accessing the store. These are common across the mobile industry. You require an ID. ie. email address.

How would you expect one to download any apps without an ID or access services without a login? These so called "issues" are not spelled out on any phone box, regardless of OS or manufacturer as it is seen as common sense.

The NSA issue is one related to all technology relating to online services, its related to phones, tablets, computers etc.

TBi

You could just create a throwaway email account and fill it with false information. Then to store your own contacts you can buy Windows server, set up an exchange mail server in your house, set up the phone so it uses that to store all your contacts and, bobs-your-uncle, no NSA spying.

What's the big deal about?

Also disable the wireless portion of the phone, the NSA can track that. You don't want to be making phone calls either, they can listen in on those too. Best to put phone in airplane mode. Better yet get an encrypted walkey talkey for you and yours friends!

If all else fails, two tin cans and a long piece of string!

cnocbui

So in order to use the contacts on your SIM with an android phone, you first have to create an account then Google uploads all your contacts to it's servers?

Does Apple copy all of your contacts to it's servers when you open an iTunes account?

The NSA issue does not affect all phones. I doubt they can reach into my phone and access my contacts, for example.

cnocbui

TBi wrote: »

You could just create a throwaway email account and fill it with false information. Then to store your own contacts you can buy Windows server, set up an exchange mail server in your house, set up the phone so it uses that to store all your contacts and, bobs-your-uncle, no NSA spying.

What's the big deal about?

Also disable the wireless portion of the phone, the NSA can track that. You don't want to be making phone calls either, they can listen in on those too. Best to put phone in airplane mode. Better yet get an encrypted walkey talkey for you and yours friends!

If all else fails, two tin cans and a long piece of string!

Why do all that when it is a lot simpler to just not use a phone running WP8 - which is what I am going to do.

With your attitude you might as well just give Revenue your bank details and passwords and tell them to take what they like as I am sure you think they will just get it all anyway.

PaulieC

On wp8, even with a connected account, you can use your sim contacts without having them saved to the cloud.
New contacts can be saved to any email account, be it exchange, outlook, yahoo, google etc.

cnocbui

How do you use your SIM contacts without importing them to the phone?

PaulieC

it's been a long time since I had SIM only contacts, but they should show up in your People list as contacts with no pictures.

cnocbui

They don't.

PaulieC

LMBTFY

http://www.windowsphone.com/en-IE/how-to/wp8/people/import-contacts-from-my-old-phone

When you import contacts from a SIM card, they're automatically imported to your Microsoft account on your phone. They won't be deleted from the SIM card. If you haven't set up a Microsoft account, your contacts are saved to the phone's memory. If you set up a Microsoft account later on, the contacts on your phone will automatically be imported into it.

cnocbui

So we are back to having a feature phone.

Someone elsewhere suggested that if you go into People -> settings -> MS account -> Server and change it to 127.0.0.1 (local), ET can't phone home so your contacts don't go anywhere you don't want them to. I suspect you would wan't to be careful to remove the contacts before an OS update as that address might get reset.

Think I will try that by inputting a dummy contact and seeing what happens.

TBi

I seriously think you are better off to sell the phone, use the money to buy a new tin foil hat and an alternative which does what you want.

Vote with your wallet, you shouldn't have to go through hoops to get what you want. WP8 won't let you do what you want, move on to something that will.

PaulieC

cnocbui wrote: »

So we are back to having a feature phone.

I don't get your meaning ? Does having your contacts saved to your phone's memory make it a feature phone, but having them on your SIM or in the cloud make it a smartphone ?
TBH, I don't fully see the difference between feature phones and smart phones (outside of a full touchscreen), but I do see the benefits of having contacts saved to a remote location, linked to my email account so it means that I can see my contacts anywhere, be it on my phone, work pc, home pc, etc.

I get the feeling that you'll continue to nitpick about this subject, but I think it's really because you shelled out on a phone that you don't like and just want to complain about.

kayos

cnocbui wrote: »

I recently acquired a Nokia 720 but have decided not to use it as a phone as I am unhappy that WP8 is such a half-finished amateurish effort.

PaulieC wrote: »

but I think it's really because you shelled out on a phone that you don't like and just want to complain about.

Nail hammer head.....

WP8 is not an OS I would call half finished amateurish effort.

It performs better than Android on lower spec hardware and performance does not degrade over time as per every Android device I've ever owned (still like my Nexus 7 though).

In terms of stability I've had a Lumia 800 for the guts of 18months. I've only had to reboot once to resolve a network issue (not a OS issue). Its never crashed and well it just works!

If the NSA really wants to know who your calling they don't need your contacts saved in the cloud to find out. They have your call records.... The best thing for you to do is delete everything about yourself from every electronic system like banks, health care providers, employers, schools, sites like boards, telecoms providers etc. Trash your hard drives and go live in the wilderness.

Oh and dont forget the tinfoil.....

cnocbui

PaulieC wrote: »

I don't get your meaning ? Does having your contacts saved to your phone's memory make it a feature phone, but having them on your SIM or in the cloud make it a smartphone ?

TBH, I don't fully see the difference between feature phones and smart phones (outside of a full touchscreen), but I do see the benefits of having contacts saved to a remote location, linked to my email account so it means that I can see my contacts anywhere, be it on my phone, work pc, home pc, etc.

I get the feeling that you'll continue to nitpick about this subject, but I think it's really because you shelled out on a phone that you don't like and just want to complain about.

You said the contacts could be used by accessing the SIM directly.
I tried that it appears that you can't. The relevance of this is that if the contacts don't have to be uploaded from the SIM to the phone, then I could operate the phone with a Microsoft account and therefore make use of the App store, and not have my contacts uploaded to a Microsoft server.

In this situation the phone would be a smart phone in that you can install apps on it. But since you can't use the contacts on the SIM directly, you have to upload them to the phones memory, where they will then be uploaded to Microsoft if you have the phone registered to a Microsoft account. To stop this from happening - as was suggested earlier - I could not register the phone to a Microsoft account, which would then mean I wouldn't be able to access the App store.

So, if like me, you don't want to upload your contacts to Microsoft, you have two choices:

1) Don't register the phone, upload my contacts to it and forgo the use of apps. (feature phone)

2) Register the phone, be able to use apps but not be able to have contacts on it (impractical smartphone.)

I can see why you would think I don't like the phone. While I doubt you will believe me, I actually do like it very much - it has the best looks and battery life of any phone in the Nokia range.

I think the OS has some shortcomings, and I could probably live with it if it wasn't for this one single feature which I won't put up with as a matter of principle.

If I didn't like the phone, I wouldn't have started this thread in the hope of finding a solution to what, for me, is a problem. As I said, I will try the server fix I mentioned and see if that works, in which case i will be happy to give it a proper go.

I can see why some people might like having their contacts in the cloud, but I don't think it should be compulsory.

Would you like all your bank login details including passwords stored in the cloud compulsorily? It would be great, you could access them from anywhere.

kayos wrote: »

Nail hammer head.....

WP8 is not an OS I would call half finished amateurish effort.

It performs better than Android on lower spec hardware and performance does not degrade over time as per every Android device I've ever owned (still like my Nexus 7 though).

In terms of stability I've had a Lumia 800 for the guts of 18months. I've only had to reboot once to resolve a network issue (not a OS issue). Its never crashed and well it just works!

If the NSA really wants to know who your calling they don't need your contacts saved in the cloud to find out. They have your call records.... The best thing for you to do is delete everything about yourself from every electronic system like banks, health care providers, employers, schools, sites like boards, telecoms providers etc. Trash your hard drives and go live in the wilderness.

Oh and dont forget the tinfoil.....

Keep your money under your mattress and leave your home and car unlocked. I actually don't care about the NSA etc. I care about Microsoft not giving a user a choice as to what happens to their data.

Not giving the user a choice in this is one failing of the OS.

Not being able to change your MS account for the phone, except by doing a hard reset is another. If you have an Xbox and want to use Smartglass and didn't use your xbox account to register the phone to, you cant use it. Similarly, if you go to a friends house and want to use Smartglass with their Xbox, you can't.

Not having a file manager is a problem. Phones like the 720 have limited on-board memory, so being able to keep that as free as possible is important. You should be able to store Nokia maps on the card. You can't use it to store files on like a USB stick

You cant set a static IP address. You cant select videos in the select screen for photos/videos. Bluetooth is stuffed - you can't transfer a video to OSX via bluetooth, it says the device doesn't support sharing! You can't transfer files to it from OSX, it doesn't recognise the request to pair.

There is no task manager that allows you to quit running apps. The current method is cumbersome if you are many pages deep into Explorer it takes too long to back out using the back arrow to close it. In explorer there should be forward arrow. Explorer should let you pinch zoom out, not just in, so you can very quickly scroll down long pages. It should let you download any files you want, not just the couple types it approves of.

Audio players should let you drag the progress bar forward and back to adjust the playback point. The audio player should be able resume a song from the position where it was stopped.

Ringtone/system sound volumes should be adjustable independently of media playback volume. There are audio glitches in the playback changing tracks and doing other things. You can't use .MP3s as ringtones. No custom sounds for system alerts.

There should be a task bar enabling you to toggle WiFi, Bluetooth, location and aircraft mode. Alternatively, those should be pin-able to the home screen and their tiles should be live and show the status. I know you can get Apps that sort of do that but they are inelegant and trying to do something the OS should.

I don't know if the incredibly long shutter lag is just on the 720 or an OS thing. Apps seem slow to load compared to a 3 year old 1 Ghz, single core S8500.

There is no integrated clock app to give you countdown timer, stopwatch, alarms and world times. I looked at apps and one developer mentioned he couldn't guarantee the accuracy because MS didn't allow access to the HW clock signals.

Of course other people might think all these things are perfectly OK, like the contacts issue, but to me they make the OS seem a bit basic and half finished. There are a lot of things I like about the OS too; it's clean, elegant, scrolling is fluid and so on.

Overheal

If you are worried about cloud saving your contacts you should probably avoid smartphones altogether. Its not as though Android and iOS are pulling you any favors in that regard either.

For the sheer number of complaints you have about the WP8s perceived limitations though I will suggest android, which will let you do all of those things. Frankly though I am not a fan of android, it over complicates what should be a rather simple thing: a working phone. I for one have never needed to set up a static IP for an iPhone..

Cheer up though Microsoft just bought out Nokia's phone division. Expect to see better communication at the kernel level.

_Kaiser_

cnocbui wrote: »

Keep your money under your mattress and leave your home and car unlocked. I actually don't care about the NSA etc. I care about Microsoft not giving a user a choice as to what happens to their data.

Not giving the user a choice in this is one failing of the OS.

In this regard MSFT are no different to Google really (I've never owned or used an iPhone beyond 5 minute sessions). But it's really no different to any online service - all of those require you to login to servers you don't control.
Ever bought anything online? Same story.

Not being able to change your MS account for the phone, except by doing a hard reset is another. If you have an Xbox and want to use Smartglass and didn't use your xbox account to register the phone to, you cant use it. Similarly, if you go to a friends house and want to use Smartglass with their Xbox, you can't.

As far as I'm aware MSFT are working to fix this by allowing Aliases between Microsoft accounts with merging legacy accounts to your current one being the next step

Not having a file manager is a problem. Phones like the 720 have limited on-board memory, so being able to keep that as free as possible is important. You should be able to store Nokia maps on the card. You can't use it to store files on like a USB stick

Agreed that you should be able to use storage better, but Android didn't allow this either for a good while. It'll no doubt make it to WP too.

You cant set a static IP address.

Can't say I've ever needed to myself...

You cant select videos in the select screen for photos/videos.

Not sure what you mean here?

Bluetooth is stuffed - you can't transfer a video to OSX via bluetooth, it says the device doesn't support sharing! You can't transfer files to it from OSX, it doesn't recognise the request to pair.

Don't use OSX so can't comment. I'd wager most people use Bluetooth for handsfree pairing though and there I've had no issues.

There is no task manager that allows you to quit running apps. The current method is cumbersome if you are many pages deep into Explorer it takes too long to back out using the back arrow to close it. In explorer there should be forward arrow. Explorer should let you pinch zoom out, not just in, so you can very quickly scroll down long pages. It should let you download any files you want, not just the couple types it approves of.

Agree on this one

Audio players should let you drag the progress bar forward and back to adjust the playback point. The audio player should be able resume a song from the position where it was stopped.

Didn't know it doesn't but then I don't listen to music on the phone. That's why I have the car

Ringtone/system sound volumes should be adjustable independently of media playback volume. There are audio glitches in the playback changing tracks and doing other things. You can't use .MP3s as ringtones. No custom sounds for system alerts.

Agree on the custom alerts. Can't say I've noticed the others (again not using the phone for music)

There should be a task bar enabling you to toggle WiFi, Bluetooth, location and aircraft mode. Alternatively, those should be pin-able to the home screen and their tiles should be live and show the status. I know you can get Apps that sort of do that but they are inelegant and trying to do something the OS should.

ConnectivityShortcuts does the job for me

I don't know if the incredibly long shutter lag is just on the 720 or an OS thing. Apps seem slow to load compared to a 3 year old 1 Ghz, single core S8500.

Can't say I've noticed an issue but then I'm using a 920 myself.

There is no integrated clock app to give you countdown timer, stopwatch, alarms and world times. I looked at apps and one developer mentioned he couldn't guarantee the accuracy because MS didn't allow access to the HW clock signals.

Not something I've been affected by so no comment really

Of course other people might think all these things are perfectly OK, like the contacts issue, but to me they make the OS seem a bit basic and half finished. There are a lot of things I like about the OS too; it's clean, elegant, scrolling is fluid and so on.

It's still evolving and yes, I agree that there are some things that should have been there from the offset, but it does seem to me that MSFT are determined to make a go of this so I'm sure most of what you've mentioned will come along in the next few updates.

For me (coming from several Androids) I love the performance (no lag/no degradation), interface (used the same layout on my previous 2 Androids too), and general elegance of the OS. Plus there's the excellent battery life.

I used to root n' ROM with the best of em on Android but in the end it just bored me and while the specs are going up every generation, there's very little innovation IMO aside from gimmicks that most people might use a few times and forget about .. and which usually make it to the rest of the range through official updates and/or custom ROMs from XDA anyway.
I watched the Note 3 launch last night and my reaction was "meh". I previously had a Note 2 and it was an excellent phone but there was nothing "wow" in the new model.. slightly bigger screen (not that the Note 2 is small!), faster CPU and more RAM, but very little REAL changes IMO - aside from the aforementioned software gimmicks.

I am heavily invested in the MSFT ecosystem anyway (work in IT in a Windows environment, have Windows laptops, and am considering the XBox One) so for me I'm quite happy with the integration that's there and improving with every update. That said.. if Google could come out with a proper desktop OS that gave me everything I expect from Windows I'd seriously look at that too.

Only thing I'd like right now is if MSFT could set it up so I can see and reply to SMS from my laptop really. The rest (most of the fixes above) is coming anyway from what I have read.

PaulieC

cnocbui wrote: »

Would you like all your bank login details including passwords stored in the cloud compulsorily? It would be great, you could access them from anywhere.

this strawman argument doesn't really wash with me. You introduced it as part of the reason why you wouldn't want contacts stored in the cloud.

What mobile OS to you favour ? Just out of interest I'd love to know what company meets your lofty principles.

kayos

Just to point out you can have mp3 ringtones.

beauf

Can you have two Microsoft accounts on the one phone?

I thought OSX didn't support media file sharing ?

pleasant Co.

....so, fingerprints eh :pac: