Nutrient timing and hormone levels

calfmuscle

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I think what you are referring to here is gluconeogensis as you refer to it later in your post. Just to clarify so we are all talking about the same thing.

Yup thats what I meant, diabetic and dyslexic amn't I lucky :P

I don't think you mean...(make glucose from other cells)?

I was just trying very hard to keep it simple.

Will Heffernan

calfmuscle wrote: »

I was just trying very hard to keep it simple.

No problem with that at all. Just wanted to make sure we are all talking about the same things.

This process is a massively interesting one and I am currently involved in study in this area and hence it was of particular interest to me.

It is a very complicated area and it takes an effort to keep it simple.

Suffice to say it is more complicated than the interplay between glucose and insulin and this topic really can't be discussed properly without considering the interplay between glucagon, epinephrine, norepinephrine and cortisol and the influence and action they have in the regulation of plasma glucose concentration as well.

schwalbe

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Well actually...the sad thing is...you aren't. Yes, people can work the google machine but as shocking as this might be...it isn't the best source of information. Well...actual correct information that is.

Well why don't you give me some frickin info then rather than dancing around like a little bitch singing "I know,I know but I'm not telling". We get it,you see yourself as a superior source of information on this topic,and you may well be,so share it.

calfmuscle

Will Heffernan wrote: »

No problem with that at all. Just wanted to make sure we are all talking about the same things.

This process is a massively interesting one and I am currently involved in study in this area and hence it was of particular interest to me.

It is a very complicated area and it takes an effort to keep it simple.

Suffice to say it is more complicated than the interplay between glucose and insulin and this topic really can't be discussed properly without considering the interplay between glucagon, epinephrine, norepinephrine and cortisol and the influence and action they have in the regulation of plasma glucose concentration as well.

Cortisol is the killer! The amount of type one diabetics with who wake up with high blood sugars because of increased cortisol in the am is massive!
The sugars just start to creep up around 4am.
What is the study on??

Will Heffernan

schwalbe wrote: »

Well why don't you give me some frickin info then rather than dancing around like a little bitch singing "I know,I know but I'm not telling".

Ahhhh...I don't actually think that is what I am doing. It's an absolutely massive area of study with absolutely enormous scope, breadth and depth. You might as well make a random post and throw up 3 worthless links and then say...'Well it looks like the days of training are over.' Then when I say...No, that's not the case you say...well explain training to me.

Where am I supposed to start when what you are asking me to do is to tell you everything I know about endocrinology in relation to exercise physiology without any sort of reference point other than some worthless articles and a statement along the lines of 'Looks like having post workout carbohydrate is worthless.'?

Are we talking resistance training...and if so...what kind....and for what purpose? Are we talking conditioning work? Sprint training? Multi sprint? Endurance? Are we talking team or individual sports? What context? Multi event? Multiple exertion single day events? Are we talking about the hormonal effects? If so...for what purpose? Increased muscle mass? Improved muscular function?

I could go on and on and on.

You've made a one line statement and from that I am supposed to explain what exactly?

We get it,you see yourself as a superior source of information on this topic,and you may well be,so share it.

I honestly think you know so little about the subject and the material that you don't even understand what you are asking about.

That isn't me being mean or and a-hole...you just only have the vaguest clue of what you even think you are asking about.

Brian?

schwalbe wrote: »

Well why don't you give me some frickin info then rather than dancing around like a little bitch singing "I know,I know but I'm not telling". We get it,you see yourself as a superior source of information on this topic,and you may well be,so share it.

Keep it clean please. No need for the "little bitch" comment, it's impolite.

schwalbe

Will Heffernan wrote: »

You've made a one line statement and from that I am supposed to explain what exactly?


I honestly think you know so little about the subject and the material that you don't even understand what you are asking about.

Wait,am I asking or making a statement?You're still confused as to the difference.

Will Heffernan

schwalbe wrote: »

Wait,am I asking or making a statement?You're still confused as to the difference.

I have absolutely no idea why you are trying to derail your own thread? If you are trying to appear smarter than me then fair enough...I'll leave it for others to judge how successfully that's working out for you.

Anyway...I've fair bit of experience both in the industry and academically. I continue to work in the area as well as have an ongoing involvement at university studying the very subject you're currently asking about both from a theoretical and practical viewpoint. So if and when you grow up and decide what it is you are actually interested in maybe you could just state it outright.

Till then as I said....if anyone would like to argue the pro's and con's of nutrient timing on growth hormone and testosterone...I don't know what the OP was trying to point out.

Or that eating big and lifting big is worthless or irrelevant because of the 'articles' the OP posted as they seem to have inferred...I am happy to discuss that as well.

The third point the OP seems to be inferring is that post workout carbs are out...or that they are wondering if post workout carbs are out...if someone wants to argue that corner....then I'd be happy to take the opposing side?

harvester of sorrow

Jesus, give it a rest will ya.

schwalbe

Will Heffernan wrote: »

So if and when you grow up and decide what it is you are actually interested in maybe you could just state it outright.

Well the very first sentence of my 3 sentence opening post was -
"Here are some interesting articles on the effects of nutrient timing on growth hormone and testosterone" - so I'll grow up right now and say what I'm interested in and guess what?Strangely enough it's the effects of nutrient timing on growth hormone and testosterone,fancy that.
How's that?Clear enough?

Will Heffernan

schwalbe wrote: »

Well the very first sentence of my 3 sentence opening post was -
"Here are some interesting articles on the effects of nutrient timing on growth hormone and testosterone" - so I'll grow up right now and say what I'm interested in and guess what?Strangely enough it's the effects of nutrient timing on growth hormone and testosterone,fancy that.
How's that?Clear enough?

Are you interested generally in nutrient timing with regards the release of testosterone and growth hormone?

Are you interested specifically in nutrient timing post workout with regards the release of testosterone and growth hormone?

Are you interested specifically in nutrient timing post workout with regards the release of testosterone and growth hormone and there effects generally?

Are you interested specifically in nutrient timing post workout with regards the release of testosterone and growth hormone and there effects specifically on an anabolic state and improved protein synthesis and muscle hypertrophy?

It would help if you could be more specific?

schwalbe

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Are you interested generally in nutrient timing with regards the release of testosterone and growth hormone?

Are you interested specifically in nutrient timing post workout with regards the release of testosterone and growth hormone?

Are you interested specifically in nutrient timing post workout with regards the release of testosterone and growth hormone and there effects generally?

Are you interested specifically in nutrient timing post workout with regards the release of testosterone and growth hormone and there effects specifically on an anabolic state and improved protein synthesis and muscle hypertrophy?

It would help if you could be more specific?

The last one looks the most relevant tbh.

Duck's hoop

I thought it made no difference when you ate as long as you ate in 24 hours after w.o?

Will Heffernan

schwalbe wrote: »

The last one looks the most relevant tbh.

I will make some generalisations, statement and critiques firstly so you know where I am coming from.

The assumption that people work under is that 'nutrient timing' effects either carbohydrate storage and or synthesis. That it effects protein synthesis and in particular either effects the speed and repair of muscle or increases muscle hypertrophy. You can extend that here to a supposition that nutrient timing effects 'anabolic' hormones like testosterone and growth hormone which supposedly leads to increases in muscle mass and or performance. People go further and talk about nutrient timing decreasing the 'catabolic' hormones...those responsible for the breakdown of tissue.

Now what you also get is people/camps/vested interests that want to make arguments that nutrient timing is more important that the total intake and or the components of nutrients consumed over a day for instance.

There's been a heap of studies on nutrient timing...its effect on glycogen storage and usage, on protein synthesis and on fat utilisation etc etc etc.

The problem with many of the studies and in particular the ones that are misused and misquoted and wilfully used deceitfully to try to make money or used by people with little or no understanding of the science they are using to attempt to support their argument as happens a lot here and elsewhere.

Rather than rabbit on about nutrient timing and it's effects on testosterone and growth hormone I think I might just make some observations and ask some questions.

These are in no particular order:
1. When someone quotes a study or you see a study rather than just read the abstract have a look at how the study is conducted and who it was conducted on.
a) Studies are most commonly done on untrained subjects...are the findings based on an untrained 18 year old doing 3 sets of 10 repetitions of leg extensions twice a week for 4 weeks a good comparison to yourself or to elite athletes?
b) Studies looking at nutrient timing are usually done on fasted subjects...some as long as 24hrs and most 12hrs....when was the last time you ate nothing then went and did 2hrs to exhaustion on a bike or did max effort isometric leg extensions to failure?
c) With regard to testosterone and growth hormones....these are but two hormones...i) they don't act in isolation when it comes to hypertrophy ii) the interaction and ratio of ALL hormones are often not considered.
d) If the subjects aren't fasted and have eaten prior to training how can you possibly attribute all the changes going on post exercise to the nutrients consumed post exercise alone?
e) If you are studying subjects and they are getting additional protein for example 'post workout' how can you know that the results if any were a result of nutrient timing and not just the additional intake of protein?
f) Then have a look at what time they are training and what time the nutrient intervention is taking place. Hormone levels fluctuate naturally I could do one study and take blood samples after my invention at 6am in the morning and 6pm at night and testosterone and growth hormone levels would be completely different....are you willing to change your training and nutrition based on me choosing the 'best' time to conduct my study?
g) Again if you look at trained versus untrained subjects issue...a one off resistance training session in an untrained subject kicks off both mitochondrial and myofibrillar protein synthesis, whereas in trained subjects, protein synthesis becomes far more geared toward the myofibrillar protein synthesis.

I will leave it at that I suppose for now but as I have been from right at the beginning I am only to happy to discuss the topic as generally or as specifically as possible.

Will Heffernan

Duck's hoop wrote: »

I thought it made no difference when you ate as long as you ate in 24 hours after w.o?

It depends who you are, what you are doing, what you've done previously, how long you've been doing it for, how old you are, what sex you are, what purpose you are doing it for and on and on the list goes.

The reason I shake my head when I see some of these threads is because 'general' advice is just that....very general and depending on your circumstance it could be miles and miles from being appropriate.

The 'studies' that were posted by the OP were closer to advertising and marketing than they were to science or research and that is annoying because this is the sort of rubbish that circulates here and gets posted and reposted over and over again.

Is anyone here seriously going to take any notice of someone that sells paleo supplements? Pleeeeeeeeese give me a break.

schwalbe

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I will make some generalisations, statement and critiques firstly so you know where I am coming from.

The assumption that people work under is that 'nutrient timing' effects either carbohydrate storage and or synthesis. That it effects protein synthesis and in particular either effects the speed and repair of muscle or increases muscle hypertrophy. You can extend that here to a supposition that nutrient timing effects 'anabolic' hormones like testosterone and growth hormone which supposedly leads to increases in muscle mass and or performance. People go further and talk about nutrient timing decreasing the 'catabolic' hormones...those responsible for the breakdown of tissue.

Now what you also get is people/camps/vested interests that want to make arguments that nutrient timing is more important that the total intake and or the components of nutrients consumed over a day for instance.

There's been a heap of studies on nutrient timing...its effect on glycogen storage and usage, on protein synthesis and on fat utilisation etc etc etc.

The problem with many of the studies and in particular the ones that are misused and misquoted and wilfully used deceitfully to try to make money or used by people with little or no understanding of the science they are using to attempt to support their argument as happens a lot here and elsewhere.

Rather than rabbit on about nutrient timing and it's effects on testosterone and growth hormone I think I might just make some observations and ask some questions.

These are in no particular order:
1. When someone quotes a study or you see a study rather than just read the abstract have a look at how the study is conducted and who it was conducted on.
a) Studies are most commonly done on untrained subjects...are the findings based on an untrained 18 year old doing 3 sets of 10 repetitions of leg extensions twice a week for 4 weeks a good comparison to yourself or to elite athletes?
b) Studies looking at nutrient timing are usually done on fasted subjects...some as long as 24hrs and most 12hrs....when was the last time you ate nothing then went and did 2hrs to exhaustion on a bike or did max effort isometric leg extensions to failure?
c) With regard to testosterone and growth hormones....these are but two hormones...i) they don't act in isolation when it comes to hypertrophy ii) the interaction and ratio of ALL hormones are often not considered.
d) If the subjects aren't fasted and have eaten prior to training how can you possibly attribute all the changes going on post exercise to the nutrients consumed post exercise alone?
e) If you are studying subjects and they are getting additional protein for example 'post workout' how can you know that the results if any were a result of nutrient timing and not just the additional intake of protein?
f) Then have a look at what time they are training and what time the nutrient intervention is taking place. Hormone levels fluctuate naturally I could do one study and take blood samples after my invention at 6am in the morning and 6pm at night and testosterone and growth hormone levels would be completely different....are you willing to change your training and nutrition based on me choosing the 'best' time to conduct my study?
g) Again if you look at trained versus untrained subjects issue...a one off resistance training session in an untrained subject kicks off both mitochondrial and myofibrillar protein synthesis, whereas in trained subjects, protein synthesis becomes far more geared toward the myofibrillar protein synthesis.

I will leave it at that I suppose for now but as I have been from right at the beginning I am only to happy to discuss the topic as generally or as specifically as possible.

Nice one,quite a circuitous route to get here but much appreciated all the same.
Next topic,discussions with will and their effects on testosterone.:D

Will Heffernan

schwalbe wrote: »

Nice one,quite a circuitous route to get here but much appreciated all the same.
Next topic,discussions with will and their effects on testosterone.:D

It is a massive area and it is just far easy to talk about when people are specific about what they are asking.

schwalbe

Will Heffernan wrote: »

It is a massive area and it is just far easy to talk about when people are specific about what they are asking.

Yeah I can see that now,I had no idea how complicated it was when I started the thread.

Will Heffernan

schwalbe wrote: »

Yeah I can see that now,I had no idea how complicated it was when I started the thread.

It's a really interesting area.

It doesn't have as 'big' an impact as it is generally made out to and to be honest you would probably get a bigger performance increase and larger lean muscle mass gains from getting an extra hour of sleep every night for a week.

People probably spend more time in a catabolic state staying up too late trying to read whatever they can about how to maximise testosterone and growth hormone release.

schwalbe

Will Heffernan wrote: »

It's a really interesting area.

It doesn't have as 'big' an impact as it is generally made out to and to be honest you would probably get a bigger performance increase and larger lean muscle mass gains from getting an extra hour of sleep every night for a week.

People probably spend more time in a catabolic state staying up too late trying to read whatever they can about how to maximise testosterone and growth hormone release.

Are there optimal times for getting the main body of sleep,as in if I sleep between midnight and 7 am is this better than say 4 am and 11 am?And if so is there much of a difference?
And if so what is the worst sleep cycle to have?

Brian?

schwalbe wrote: »

Are there optimal times for getting the main body of sleep,as in if I sleep between midnight and 7 am is this better than say 4 am and 11 am?And if so is there much of a difference?
And if so what is the worst sleep cycle to have?

It's important to try and sleep at the same time every day. Or at least have 4 hours of anchor sleep. So if normally sleep 11pm to 7am and something changes then try to have at least 4 hours overlap with that time frame.

JimmyR

Will Heffernan wrote: »

It depends who you are, what you are doing, what you've done previously, how long you've been doing it for, how old you are, what sex you are, what purpose you are doing it for and on and on the list goes.
.

This is interesting, I'll give you my opinion from reading the likes of Alan Aragon and maybe you can tell me if I'm on the right track with my opinion.

1. Who you are? Gaelic footballer
2. What you are doing? Tuesday night Gaelic football training session, 1hr 30mins.
Includes 15 minute warm up, 15 minutes of speed and agility drills, almost an hour of ball drills and conditioned games
3. What you've done previously? Played game on Saturday, trained previous Friday, training again Friday and match Saturday. 3 weight training sessions, Monday, Wednesday, Sunday 45 minutes each with Sundays involving a lot of mobility and flexibility, more of a recovery session.
4. How old are you? Can I use three example if there is a difference 20 , 26, 33
5. What sex are you? Male
6. What are you doing it for? Training to improve performance, nutrition to help ensure full recovery.

My opinion would be that the most important thing is that players meet their calorie needs with an adequate balance of protein, carbs and fat.

There are benefits to eating after training and while I wouldn't tell some not to, they should prioritise meeting there daily needs and if they are not meeting those then recovery is going to be hampered even if they eat soon after training.

The 15-30 minute window is more of way of getting people more compliant when it comes to ensuring they eat enough, it's amazing how diligent people are to post workout nutrient when they think their muscles might disappear. But in reality it just helps to ensure that you get nutrition in quickly after a session before you forget about it or life gets in the way. For example a footballer travelling back to Dublin from Roscommon on a Tuesday night might not be bothered eating until the morning, not ideal if he intends having a weights session on the Wednesday and this becomes a regular routine.