Catholic intolerance

Kiwi in IE

I Heart Internet wrote: »

One could simple carry on with your stroll, or read a magazine for the 40 minutes.

I imagine the quality of healthcare is what's important - not a hospital's ethos.

Hospital ethos is pretty important when it comes to gynocology, maternity and fertility issues, but that is for another thread.

recedite

Jernal wrote: »

Didn't shepherds usually eat their sheep?

Hey, eating himself is a piece of piss for a guy who already fathered himself.

Kiwi in IE

Just out of interest do all hospitals here have a Catholic 'ethos'?

Kiwi in IE

When I was working with an agency every hospital I went had religious paraphernalia about the place. I am just wondering are there any hospitals which are not affiliated with religion?

inocybe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Delighted you're well after the operation OP.


Would you also object to shopping centres playing "Oh Come all ye Faithful" in December? Same deal, no?

I was in A &E last December and there was a stage outside with amps blasting out Christmas carols. It was loud, even inside. I found it really tasteless and a bit cruel, elsewhere in the hospital maybe, but casualty?

recedite

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I am just wondering are there any hospitals which are not affiliated with religion?

A few of the newer ones have no religious ethos, I don't think the Midlands Regional in Portlaoise has.

Tallaght Hospital (AKA The Adelaide and Meath with National Maternity Harcourt Street, What a Mouthful Hospital) is an interesting case. It was built by the State in the 90's from scratch, but it was supposedly to be the home of 3 hospitals that were closing, all of which had a decidedly "Anglo Irish" history. I remember when it first opened, the nurses had different uniforms according to which hospital they had come from. That was just a token gesture though, and nowadays it is basically a secular state hospital. Considering that the State had built the new hospital and was paying the salaries, the original boards of management would have had no bargaining power to import any kind of religious ethos from the old hospitals. And that, I think, is the best way to deal with religious control in public hospitals. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Here's a snippet from the history section (an appropriate place to consign the ethos :pac:) of Tallaght Hospital.

Adelaide HospitalThe Adelaide Hospital was founded in 1839 to serve the poor Protestant population of Dublin. Like the Meath and National Children's Hospitals, the Adelaide Hospital was a voluntary hospital - its survival dependent on the generosity of others and the dedication of its staff.........

Meath HospitalThe Meath Hospital is the oldest of the three hospitals, founded in 1753. Situated in the ‘liberty’ of the Earl of Meath, the Hospital was opened to serve the sick and poor in the crowded area of the Liberties in Dublin.....

In 1821 a number of eminent Dublin doctors - concerned with the lack of treatment available for sick children in the city - founded the National Children's Hospital.

So you can see how once upon a time when hospitals were private charities, they could have a private ethos. Nowadays when staff are on the public service payroll that is no longer acceptable.

Hotblack Desiato

AFAIK Tallaght has CoI representation on its board.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Live and let live I guess, as you say.

Enforcing religious ceremonies on a captive audience is a long way off 'live and let live.'

recedite

ninja900 wrote: »

AFAIK Tallaght has CoI representation on its board.'

Ah yes, you are right. There he is in #8 position, just above "vacant", the Archdeacon David Pierpoint, like some vestigial organ left over from the past. I suppose he costs money, and maybe he appoints a chaplain or two onto the payroll. I doubt he influences hospital policy in any meaningful way though. Still you are right, we are not quite there yet.

http://www.amnch.ie/About-Us/Hospital-Board-/

Brian Shanahan

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I imagine the quality of healthcare is what's important - not a hospital's ethos.

The "ethos" of a hospital very much has an impact on the quality of care. The notion of "don't go to a doctor, it is worshipping idols" (or similar) is very common within christianity, and frankly there are a lot of areas in medicine where I wouldn't trust catholic "ethos" to make the best choice for the life and well-being of a patient, for example if someone is terminal and in great pain the catholic "ethos" is to prolong that pain as it's against god to allow someone to alleviate the pain of someone with a terminal disease.

Banbh

I imagine the quality of healthcare is what's important - not a hospital's ethos.

I agree so why do they have one?

I Heart Internet

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The "ethos" of a hospital very much has an impact on the quality of care. The notion of "don't go to a doctor, it is worshipping idols" (or similar) is very common within christianity,

Wow. Just wow. Where did you pick up that nugget of information? You think christians don't approve of going to a doctor?? Strange that christian communities and organisations run so many hospitals, health centres and hospices.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

...for example if someone is terminal and in great pain the catholic "ethos" is to prolong that pain as it's against god to allow someone to alleviate the pain of someone with a terminal disease.

There aren't enough words to describe how wrong this is.

I Heart Internet

Banbh wrote: »

I agree so why do they have one?

They have them because it reflects the original motivation for the founding of the hospital in the first place, usually.

For example, The Mercy Hospial is Cork was founded by the Sisters of Mercy, part of whose charism is to care for the sick.

gaynorvader

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. Where did you pick up that nugget of information? You think christians don't approve of going to a doctor??

Some do, but I think it's safe to say most don't

There aren't enough words to describe how wrong this is.

It's actually what Mother Teresa believed, that suffering brought you closer to God. Again, I don't think it holds true for most Christians.

I Heart Internet

gaynorvader wrote: »

It's actually what Mother Teresa believed, that suffering brought you closer to God. Again, I don't think it holds true for most Christians.

Some christians are a little too fond of the gospel of suffering alright. But the notion that christians don't approve of pain management for people in agony is ridiculous.

gaynorvader

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Some christians are a little too fond of the gospel of suffering alright. But the notion that christians don't approve of pain management for people in agony is ridiculous.

I think it's more honest to say a few people believe it because they are Christian. Rather than Christians believe that people should suffer.

Benny_Cake

It's also true that a small number of fringe Christian groups disapprove of conventional medicine, the Christian Science church being one. That's far from being very common, however, it's quite uncommon. To suggest that it is a very common position is completely untrue.

Kiwi in IE

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

for example if someone is terminal and in great pain the catholic "ethos" is to prolong that pain as it's against god to allow someone to alleviate the pain of someone with a terminal disease.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

There aren't enough words to describe how wrong this is.

I suspect Brian is referring to voluntary euthanasia here rather than analgesia! And if so he is 100% correct!

Banbh

For example, The Mercy Hospial is Cork was founded by the Sisters of Mercy, part of whose charism is to care for the sick.

The child abusers? So a Catholic ethos is a licence to beat, starve and humiliate and then refuse to pay the victims, passing the burden onto the citizens.

I Heart Internet

Banbh wrote: »

The child abusers? So a Catholic ethos is a licence to beat, starve and humiliate and then refuse to pay the victims, passing the burden onto the citizens.

No. Where did you hear that it was?

sbsquarepants

Banbh wrote: »

they were asking for mercy from the 'Lamb of God' who has the power to remove sin from the world. I hadn't come across this fearful lamb before; is it official Catholic theology?

Lamb of divine jaysus, sometimes shortened to just lamb of divine, is an old Dublin expression used to express exasperation, perhaps at the shoddy workmanship of an apprentice or underling.
Usage as in "oh, lamb of divine jaysus anto, what are you after doing? Have you no bleedin cop on? I'll be all night fixing this ye bollix"

Banbh

No. Where did you hear that it was?

The abuse of children by the Sisters of Mercy is contained in the Ryan Report and in a TV documentary 'Dear Daughter'. The Catholic ethos of these nuns accommodated - nay required - cruelty to children on a sickening scale.

Brian Shanahan

I Heart Internet wrote: »

There aren't enough words to describe how wrong this is.

Glad you agree with the wrongness of insisting someones pain and suffering be prolonged because your religion demands it.

And yes catholic teaching is that ****ed up.

I Heart Internet

Banbh wrote: »

The abuse of children by the Sisters of Mercy is contained in the Ryan Report and in a TV documentary 'Dear Daughter'. The Catholic ethos of these nuns accommodated - nay required - cruelty to children on a sickening scale.

My question was how the "catholic ethos" gives licence for this. It doesn't.

old hippy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

My question was how the "catholic ethos" gives licence for this. It doesn't.

But it did. For many years and many, many victims. How can you defend this?

I Heart Internet

old hippy wrote: »

But it did. For many years and many, many victims. How can you defend this?

Abuse happened within catholic institutions in spite of their catholic ethos which, on paper, espoused mercy, charity and love.

An example of saying one thing and doing the other.

Kiwi in IE

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Abuse happened within catholic institutions in spite of their catholic ethos which, on paper, espoused mercy, charity and love.

You might be able to say that the rampant paedophilia within Catholic institutions happened in spite of Catholic ethos. But what about women who had their babies stolen from them, were used as slave labour, had symphysiotomys preformed on them, the mental and psychological abuse of children, discrimination and social exclusion of homosexuals, unmarried mothers etc, etc? All those things happened directly because of Catholic ethos.

Red Nissan

Banbh wrote: »

but I did meet God. He is going to perform a miracle on me through surgery with latest knowledge from medical science

The surgeon who did my triple by-pass open heart surgery was a Muslim ~ I had to constantly remind fellow patients to suspend prayer to God and say them to Allah instead.

Kiwi in IE

I am not really sure that even the paedophilia can be said to have occurred in spite of Catholic ethos. An ethos that is as misogynistic as Catholicism and places such an extraordinary amount of power in a few who are believed to be 'chosen' by a higher power, will reap what it has sown!

Turtwig

Child abuse. We've got two threads with this now. Paedophile is someone with an attraction to younger children. Not all paedophiles actually abuse children and not all child molesters are paedophiles.

Red Nissan

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

When I was working with an agency every hospital I went had religious paraphernalia about the place. I am just wondering are there any hospitals which are not affiliated with religion?

Hospital were set up by religious orders, in Ireland one had mostly a Protestant order or a Catholic one, a Protestant [at one time] would not have been welcome in a Catholic Hospital but a Catholic was in a Protestant one.

Modern hospitals are separating religion and even banning clerical visits to the wards, instead allowing meetings and prayers in say the TV room.

Banning is too strong a word, but you should get the picture.

Red Nissan

Jernal wrote: »

not all child molesters are paedophiles.

For children 12 years and younger, this in fact is the definition. ???

Banbh

If an ethos of charity, love, blah can't stop those who adhere to this ethos from being abusive, cruel and hateful, then its all a phoney.

Is it only schools and hospitals that are under the Catholic ethos in Ireland? There are three bus companies running buses from Galway to Dublin and they don't specify any ethos. There are three hospitals in Galway and they don't specify any ethos either - not in their advertising, not in their guides for patients - until a customer comes through the door and then its gotcha.

When we have our first Muslim-ethos hospital shortly with separate public areas for men and women, prayers over the tannoy and more of the nonsense, I hope our tolerant Catholic-ethos advocates will just get down on their knees, face Mecca and get on with it.

Red Nissan

Banbh wrote: »

When we have our first Muslim-ethos hospital shortly with separate public areas for men and women,

I don't know how much is policy, but when I was in CUH this time last year, we had mixed wards, so the economy must improve a bit more to fit in whole separate areas.

It was a bit of a shock to see full burka staff and full Sikh dress surgeons doing the rounds on their Sabbath.

Privately, men and women entertain separately in their own homes.