Rep. of Ireland v Sweden - WCQ - K/O 7.45Pm

nbar12

I FÚCKING HATE TRAP AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

simongurnick

naughtb4 wrote: »

We just dont have the players, McCarthy was about the same as Whelan, Wilson was atrocious.

I look forward to the next manager if only so we don't end up repeating this thread ad nauseum for ever

Time and again McCarthy has flattered to deceive in an Irish jersey.
At one point he received the ball in our own half in the middle of the park(bear in mind he is supposed to be our ball player) and he just plays a flat pass to Whelan.

FlawedGenius

Chris Houghton in the stand is that a hint hel be offered the job??

Gringo180

FlawedGenius wrote: »

Chris Houghton in the stand is that a hint hel be offered the job??

Why would he take it?

Mars Bar

FlawedGenius wrote: »

Chris Houghton in the stand is that a hint hel be offered the job??

Doubt it. Pilkington and Hoolahan were both in the squad.

Demosthenese

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Part of our problem is that we entrust our best players to the English teams to continue their development after the age of about 15. There is no cohesion between our national league and the FAI. It's mad that the best youth sides in this country are not the sides playing in our own top division. As a result, we're subject to whatever way the English are doing things and whatever players they manage to churn out for us.

Its no surprise the English PL rely on foreign imports to fill their midfields. Don't have the infrastructures to do it themselves. We feed off the crumbs of the english game. It will continue.

Seaneh

FlawedGenius wrote: »

Chris Houghton in the stand is that a hint hel be offered the job??

More likely he was watching his players to see how they were doing.

simongurnick

This is so optimistic that I should be shot...but the Swedes have a banana skin game on Tuesday against the Kazakhs.
Please, Borat...do us a favour!!

Rhys Essien

Bert Van Marwijk for next Ireland manager.He done fairly well with Holland and is a free agent at the moment.And he is probably a fluent English speaker.

FlawedGenius

Gringo180 wrote: »

Why would he take it?

more money, bigger job really, hes Irish, hes been in the set up before so wouldn't be a gamble.

Solid appointment hed be.

Amirani

We have to trust in John Delaney's ability to appoint Bryan Robson.

The_Kew_Tour

Deleted User wrote: »

Who thinks that? Sounds like a strawman argument.

Personally, would say 50:50 chance at best, although it does depend on the draw of course

plenty of people in the past...i have had discussions on this with other posters here.

think there was a Euro 201 thread think that was one place.

PhlegmyMoses

NiallSparky wrote: »

We have to trust in John Delaney's ability to appoint Bryan Robson.

I originally read Bobby Robson, which would be depressingly apt satire.

corny

I think its a cultural thing in Ireland. No one is ever encouraged to play football, at any level. The international team play exactly like every Eircom league team. The ball spends the majority of the time in the air and the view is the further the ball is away from our goal the better. Very few players ever look to get on the ball and play. Even the crowd rejoice when the opposition put the ball out for throw. I can't understand it tbh. Even the limited sides of world football attempt to play the game.

Trap should fall on his sword no doubt but don't be under any illusion folks. A new manager won't make a blind bit of difference.

I was there tonight and i can safely say i will never, ever go to another Ireland match. I'd seriously rather watch paint dry than fund that ****e.

Amirani

corny wrote: »

I think its a cultural thing in Ireland. No one is ever encouraged to play football, at any level. The international team play exactly like every Eircom league team.

No they don't. You've ruined your post because of two glaring examples of ignorance right there.

Corholio

corny wrote: »

I think its a cultural thing in Ireland. No one is ever encouraged to play football, at any level. The international team play exactly like every Eircom league team. The ball spends the majority of time in the air.

First of all, Airtricity League.

Secondly, you obviously don't watch any football in the league if you think that. Plenty teams play good football.

Don't be painting the league with the ****e served out there tonight.

The_Kew_Tour

Its time to bring back Mick McCarthy.

gustafo

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Its time to bring back Mick McCarthy.

nah chris hughton if they could get him

Amirani

Corholio wrote: »

First of all, Airtricity League.

I don't understand how any self respecting football fan can not know the name of the league in their own country. Whatever about wanting to watch it or not, it just comes across completely ridiculous to not even know the name. Most people on here could name every league in Europe ffs, and this lad doesn't even know the name of the league in their own country.

It's no wonder Irish football at all levels is in the state it's in, most of our football "fans" know **** all about football.

swoody

roy keane's available...........lol

briany

Thank god Breaking Bad is on Sunday/Monday. That's gonna wash away at least some of the sickening taste that match left. At least until the Austria game on Tuesday. Feck.

PhlegmyMoses

NiallSparky wrote: »

I don't understand how any self respecting football fan can not know the name of the league in their own country. Whatever about wanting to watch it or not, it just comes across completely ridiculous to not even know the name. Most people on here could name every league in Europe ffs, and this lad doesn't even know the name of the league in their own country.

It's no wonder Irish football at all levels is in the state it's in, most of our football "fans" know **** all about football.

A little harsh. Loads of people, including pundits paid to talk about it, still call the PL the Premiership. Rebranding isn't a huge deal.

He is completely wrong about the type of football being played in that league. Except Shels. Shels are awful.

Rhys Essien

I think we should hire a Dutchman next.As well as Marwijk,Rijkaard is also available.

On a sidenote,an Irishman managed Holland in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Hogan

wonderfullife

Seaneh wrote: »

Trap has managed to set Irish football back years, alienated players from day one, caused attendances to bottom out and is actually losing younger players to other sports because kids watch the national team playing **** football and decide "feck that, I'll play Rugby/Hurling/Bogball".
The next manager coming in will have to mend all the fences trap has damaged, try to give the squad back the belief that they actually can pass the ball more than 5 yards on the ground and don't have to bypass midfield and that they can pressure the other team outside of the Irish 3rd of the pitch.

I agree with everyone else that a new manager is necessary.

But i'm not having this rose-tinted glasses bullsh1t about Trap setting us back 20 years to the Charlton days of hoofball.

I also have to wonder how old some of you are who claim this. Because you're either the wrong side of 20 (younger) or have very myopic memories.

Let's take a look at the 2002 World Cup. We had a squad arguably twice as strong as the current squad. The likes of Roy Keane, Given, Robbie, Duffer in their primes.

Now lets take a look at the goals we scored.

Match 1: Matt Holland v Cameroon: Given hoofed it 60 metres wide left. Kilbane then aimlessly hoofed it towards the penalty box. It was a shoddy clearance allowing Mattie to step on to it and fire in from 25 yards.

Match 2: Robbie v Germany: Stevie Finnan hoofed it 70 metres, Quinny flicked it on, Robbie beat Khan at the near post.

Match 3: v Saudi: Robbies goal: Hoofed diagonally to Kelly, he squared it, Robbie finished it.

Breens goal: Staunton free kick, Breen gets in no marking. Goal.

Duffers goal: Slide rule pass, weak shot, keeper fumbled it.

Match 4: Keane v Spain: penalty after another setpiece hoof into Quinn and god only knows what Hierro was thinking trying to swap shirts.


We scored 6 goals in the 2002 World Cup. 3 came directly from hoof balls. 2 came from free kicks (including the penno decision that resulted). 1 came from "passing it" and even at that it was a shot most of our Grannys would have saved.

So let's put this into perspective. Trap has NOT set us back 20 years. Far from it. We've played the same muck style of football for a few decades now. Anybody pinning this solely on Trap and his "system" and "mentality" clearly doesn't watch us play.

For sure, we had teams over the years more than capable of passing the ball. Even this current generation away to France did it. The Kerr teams, the McCarthy ones. they all were able to pass it. But on the whole we've always been far too reliant on "hoofing it".

I'm all for fair criticism of the manager, for the style of play and for the lack of results. But saying he's set us back 20 years implies we ever moved on from the Charlton days. Truth is we never did. In patches, sure, but from Hughton to Phelan to Kelly to Harte to Finnan to Kilbane to Wilson ......every full back we've had over the past 25 years has relied heavily on the hoofball diagonal.

If i can blame Trap for anything it's for not fixing that. He certainly didn't create this.

simongurnick

People are taking about the style of football in Ireland. At the end of the day we live on a wind swept rock in the middle of the Atlantic...not exactly the best conditions for total futbol.

Iused2likebusts

simongurnick wrote: »

Time and again McCarthy has flattered to deceive in an Irish jersey.
At one point he received the ball in our own half in the middle of the park(bear in mind he is supposed to be our ball player) and he just plays a flat pass to Whelan.

I agree he was very poor tonight. If whelan or andrews put in that performance Eamo wouldve been all over it. End of Trap now which is great though. The man cant speak english just cant see how he can put his ideas(not that he has many) across particularly at half time.

PhlegmyMoses

simongurnick wrote: »

People are taking about the style of football in Ireland. At the end of the day we live on a wind swept rock in the middle of the Atlantic...not exactly the best conditions for total futbol.

All the more reason to keep the ball on the ground

simongurnick

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

All the more reason to keep the ball on the ground

Touche!
Although I presume you are not from the West of Ireland. There is a pitch out in Connemara which is literally on the edge of the ocean!

Amirani

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

A little harsh. Loads of people, including pundits paid to talk about it, still call the PL the Premiership. Rebranding isn't a huge deal.

That's probably fair enough. Still, I don't think you'd have many people calling it the Barclaycard Premiership or the Carling Premiership.

CSF

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

A little harsh. Loads of people, including pundits paid to talk about it, still call the PL the Premiership. Rebranding isn't a huge deal.

He is completely wrong about the type of football being played in that league. Except Shels. Shels are awful.

We're nowhere near as bad under McDonnell. You know what you're getting with Keely and Mathews so that came as no surprise.

Alfred Borden

Team is useless but Traps subs were a disgrace and leaving on a holding player in Whelan and leaving Wes on the bench with one sub to go. A total revaluation of the team and set up need to be done and more realistic targets should be set because lets all see here, that the quality of irish players is at its lowest in decades if not ever. Martin O'Neill in, build the team around Coleman,McCarthy and Wes and see what we can do from there.

PhlegmyMoses

CSF wrote: »

We're nowhere near as bad under McDonnell. You know what you're getting with Keely and Mathews so that came as no surprise.

Actually yeah, was mostly thinking about Matthews.

PropJoe10

I personally wouldnt mind seeing Mick McCarthy given another couple of years in the job. When he first came in, he was more than willing to give the likes of Duff, Keane and Dunne their chance, and more than that, he allowed them to go out and play their natural games and express themselves. Playing in Trapattoni's system must be similar to being suffocated slowly. Terrible to watch. I can only admire the efforts of the players. Must be terrible to play under such an old fashioned, restrictive coach.

EdenHazard

The players are just rubbish. Trapattoni isn't great but I've finally given up the illusion that we have a team of passers who will be able to control a match. We have loads of players who might seem on paper to be able to pass a ball sideways but nobody with the personality or ability to pass the ball constructively. Even when we do have a player who seems to fit the ball, their passing seems so forced, now maybe that's because the other players aren't on the same wavelength but yeah we have absolutely no pure ball players. So bad on the eye. Arrevederci Trap

Wacker The Attacker

This teams shortcomings were never the managers fault and they will still shine through when he's gone.

They're an honest bunch of professionals but we need to accept that they are and will always remain a middle of the road international outfit.

When we get the manager that their collective talents merit (i.e the next Steve Staunton or Brian Kerr) the 'trapattoni out' brigade will have to find something new to complain bout

simongurnick

in 1990 our 22 players for the world cup were bonner, morris, staunton, mccarthy, moran, whelan, mcgrath, houghton, aldridge, cascarino, sheedy, o'leary, townsend, hughton, slaven, sheridan, quinn, stapleton, kelly, byrne, mcloughlin and peyton. would a single member of the current squad oust any of these guys ?

Deliverance XXV

We never really had a great Irish team but we always made the most of what we got. We saw some glimpses of the Irish pride and ferocity tonight that would have equaled some Irish teams of the past. We had them absolutely rattled at times. But that was all really. Poor tactics, selection and management is to blame. Sweden were there for the taking tonight and we messed up. Not the first time.

We never really had the best players in Europe (with the exception of a slim few every few years) and we probably never will. But we would always go into a match and give a rattling performance win, lose or draw. National pride. I won't even talk about the selection, all the threads speak for themselves. It is a time for a change in management - maybe things will change, maybe not - but to see this charade go on for any longer would be just seriously upsetting. TBH, I was all for Staunton's appointment at the time and while it didn't work out I never slagged the senior management for the appointment. At least they tried something and it was rectified when it went awry. This situation has far surpassed Staunton's tenure.

What will torture me is that a player of Hoolahan's quality will never really be recognised on the national stage. He probably has 2-3 years of international football left and with the position he is in, he was always going to be more effective in his latter 20s.

What is it with recent Irish displays, in the context of:
(a) Scoring early and conceding nearly immediately afterwards?
(b) Poor performance throughout a game and scraping a draw in the death.

WallyGUFC

Since the Euros I've said it's amazing that people still defend Trap but it makes me worry for the very future of this country when people are still so blind, stupid and lacking in intelligence to be defending Giovanni Trapattoni. He clearly doesn't trust the players, which is complete horses**t. He lacks the ability to come up with a Plan B and implement it when things don't go our way. He has alienated half of the squad at different stages. He made sure we were embarrassed at the Euros. He speaks our 1st language like I speak Irish after a flake of pints. He has only started going to games in England. How much is he on again? Tardelli as well, his puppet, a useless waste of money on an assistant manager. A ludicrous setup which ran out of steam after the Euros but has been allowed to trundle on regardless.

The FAI is equally as culpable. A disgusting organisation run by a complete buffoon, a microcosm of Irish politics and society as a whole. Massive overhaul is needed from the top down.

But as much as I feel Trap is way, way out of date, the players aren't innocent in this either. They try their best to play to his system, but they have consistently shown themselves to be completely spineless. They surely realise on the pitch that 442 longball rubbish doesn't work, yet they won't change. What do they fear? The manager? These are mostly PL players ffs. They need to man up and show some pride and some balls. Jokers.

We are in dire, dire trouble whenever Robbie Keane retires. An absolute legend of the game. Another WC without us there. It's just never the same.

Deliverance XXV

simongurnick wrote: »

in 1990 our 22 players for the world cup were bonner, morris, staunton, mccarthy, moran, whelan, mcgrath, houghton, aldridge, cascarino, sheedy, o'leary, townsend, hughton, slaven, sheridan, quinn, stapleton, kelly, byrne, mcloughlin and peyton. would a single member of the current squad oust any of these guys ?

With Trap, sadly most of that squad would probably not have been on the Irish first team.

callaway92

Christ we have had some losses hurt, but this one was right in the stones.

Had hoped to go to the match next month in Germany too but I'm doubting that now.

Was painful for the second half really with Coleman and to a lesser extent McClean being positives albeit minor.

On more than one occasion Shane Long held onto the ball for 4-5+ seconds longer than he should have, preventing decent opportunities which was ridic frustrating.

NIMAN

Raf32 wrote: »

build the team around Coleman,McCarthy and Wes and see what we can do from there.

Wes is 31 you know.

simongurnick

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

We never really had a great Irish team but we always made the most of what we got. We saw some glimpses of the Irish pride and ferocity tonight that would have equaled some Irish teams of the past. We had them absolutely rattled at times. But that was all really. Poor tactics, selection and management is to blame. Sweden were there for the taking tonight and we messed up. Not the first time.

We never really had the best players in Europe (with the exception of a slim few every few years) and we probably never will. But we would always go into a match and give a rattling performance win, lose or draw. National pride. I won't even talk about the selection, all the threads speak for themselves. It is a time for a change in management - maybe things will change, maybe not - but to see this charade go on for any longer would be just seriously upsetting. TBH, I was all for Staunton's appointment at the time and while it didn't work out I never slagged the senior management for the appointment. At least they tried something and it was rectified when it went awry. This situation has far surpassed Staunton's tenure.

What will torture me is that a player of Hoolahan's quality will never really be recognised on the national stage. He probably has 2-3 years of international football left and with the position he is in, he was always going to be more effective in his latter 20s.

What is it with recent Irish displays, in the context of:
(a) Scoring early and conceding nearly immediately afterwards?
(b) Poor performance throughout a game and scraping a draw in the death.

The part in bold is one of the craziest things I have ever heard in my life.

Corholio

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

This teams shortcomings were never the managers fault and they will still shine through when he's gone.

They're an honest bunch of professionals but we need to accept that they are and will always remain a middle of the road international outfit.

When we get the manager that their collective talents merit (i.e the next Steve Staunton or Brian Kerr) the 'trapattoni out' brigade will have to find something new to complain bout

Knew it wouldn't be long until a post like this.

I truly and honestly believe the team, as a collective unit, can play better than they have been doing. Noone is saying they're world beaters, but to say the teams shortcomings wasn't the managers fault is nonsense, of course we haven't a team full of world class players but they're not shockingly bad either, and more could have been got out of them given the right tactics and some goddamn faith in at least attempting to play football.

The Pro Trap brigade will be just as bad with complaining when the new manager comes round, no doubt the first loss will bring about 'it wouldn't have happened under Trap' spiel.

Amirani

simongurnick wrote: »

The part in bold is one of the craziest things I have ever heard in my life.

Haha, I missed that when I first read it. Come on man, you can't have memories that short surely?

wonderfullife

EdenHazard wrote: »

The players are just rubbish. Trapattoni isn't great but I've finally given up the illusion that we have a team of passers who will be able to control a match. We have loads of players who might seem on paper to be able to pass a ball sideways but nobody with the personality or ability to pass the ball constructively. Even when we do have a player who seems to fit the ball, their passing seems so forced, now maybe that's because the other players aren't on the same wavelength but yeah we have absolutely no pure ball players. So bad on the eye. Arrevederci Trap

This isn't a problem limited to Ireland. It's a disease which affects all the domestic nations.

Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, England, us........... when our nations are bereft of the technically gifted foreigners we see in the Premier League, we simply can't cut it.

Many many examples within each nation. England have superior players to us, man for man, but stick them up against Germany in a World Cup and it's the same story. Or even a relatively poor Italian side. Pirlo runs the show whilst England can't retain it, can't pass it.

The mentality on these islands is all high tempo, get in their faces, lots of 'spirit'.

That's not what football is about, certainly not these days. There's a clue in the name of the game - foot ball.

Look at England over the past 20 years. Shearer. Heskey. Crouch. Lambert. All relatively slow players, and with the exception of a sublime finisher in Shearer, all primarily in the side as they offer a hoofball option. A guy to hit with the long ball, hold it up and bring the midfield into the game.

A radical overhaul and re-think is needed. The F.A. in England have begun that overhaul and are basically setting 2022 as their target for actually seeing results.

We can change too but it's going to take far more than a change of coach. Facing facts we could bring in any name you want, Ancelotti, Lippi, Del Bosque, Ferguson, Mourinho, Wenger........doesn't matter who it is, we'll still be odds against qualifying for the next tournament.

The bottom line here is a simple truth, we're not technically good enough. Like everyone else, i'd agree if we are going to fail to qualify we may as well do it trying to play on the deck. But that has its own perils too. As fans we would have to accept a possible trade-off. From these narrow tight defeats like today to getting spanked 3, 4 by teams while we try to get better.

The concept we can get in a top class coach, play attractive football and qualify for a tournament is nonsense with the talent pool we have. Ain't happening. We either do a Wales and try to change, and accept the spankings for a few years, or we get another results-based coach like Trap to come in.

eagle eye

We don't have the players to compete at the top end of international level. It really doesn't matter all that much who the manager is. Trap is an excellent manager who has tried his best and I respect him a lot but we are out and its time for him to move on.

I don't expect to see us qualify for a finals tournament anytime soon so no reason to pay exorbitant wages to a coach.

Wacker The Attacker

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I personally wouldnt mind seeing Mick McCarthy given another couple of years in the job. When he first came in, he was more than willing to give the likes of Duff, Keane and Dunne their chance, and more than that, he allowed them to go out and play their natural games and express themselves. Playing in Trapattoni's system must be similar to being suffocated slowly. Terrible to watch. I can only admire the efforts of the players. Must be terrible to play under such an old fashioned, restrictive coach.

If I were Mick McCarthy I would tell the F.A.I where to stick their Job. He was treated appallingly by press and fans alike over the Roy Keane episode.

After going through an entire world cup campaign unbeaten, to get sacked after two qualifiers at the behest of the Roy keane brigade was a travesty

klose

EdenHazard wrote: »

The players are just rubbish. Trapattoni isn't great but I've finally given up the illusion that we have a team of passers who will be able to control a match. We have loads of players who might seem on paper to be able to pass a ball sideways but nobody with the personality or ability to pass the ball constructively. Even when we do have a player who seems to fit the ball, their passing seems so forced, now maybe that's because the other players aren't on the same wavelength but yeah we have absolutely no pure ball players. So bad on the eye. Arrevederci Trap

I wouldn't say they are rubbish, we could make a compatent midfield 3 of gibson/mccarthy/hoolahan. Have a very good full back in coleman, have 2 decent forwards in long and walters. 2 decent wide men again in mclean and brady. Weve a centre half issue though which will keep on haunting us till its fixed which could be a while. Oh and an out and out striker when robbie calls it a day


Basically, weve a decent enough squad that could do better imo especially v the likes of austria and sweden. We are inept of punching above our weight for seemingly ever

Strongbow10

I genuinely struggle to see what Glenn Whelan brings to the Irish first XI.

The guy is unable to run at speed, he is unable to tackle and his passing is poor. I simply just don't get it.

You see i'd be able to stomach a negative Irish team if they were effective in their strategy. If there was a dog of war in the middle of the park who won tackles and just passed it 5 yards to someone who could actually play.

We simply don't have any of that. Trap has to go, but don't for one second believe that he instructs his players to lump it 9 times out of 10. Its a lack of balls, and a lack of personality by 99% of our players. They need encouragement to play sure, but they also need courage and bottle to not be afraid of losing possession.

This management set up lacks imagination obviously, but some of our players (players folks have been crying out for to be mainstays of the first XI- Wilson, McCarthy, McClean, Long etc...) are the most one dimensional footballers you will ever see.

Robbie Keane for a guy of 32-33 years of age still has not developed any game intelligence to drop deep into midfield when we don't have the ball. Unless he scores, we are carrying a passenger. They guy has not challenged for a header in 15 years in the game if you watch closely, his trademark run in behind a defender for a ball that will never arrive is customary.

Some people point at the goals Keane scores as a reason for claiming him to indispensible, i'd completely disagree with anything of the sort. The guy has got the team set up around him, the focus is him in attack.

Van Nistelrooy was a goal machine at United years back, did very little else mind. They were actually a better side when they had shut of RVN as other guys stepped into the breach and had to take responsibility.

Now i'm not for one minute claiming Wes Hoolohan to be the second coming, it will in time turn out to be another Andy Reid situation. But can anyone tell me what Glenn Whelan does that Wes cannot? Sure Hoolohan features further up the park for Norwich. But anyone watching Whelan knows the guy is defensively inadequate despite being well versed in keeping his shape? You only need to watch his last 30 odd games to see the problems teams cause us when they drop a man in between our midfield and defence. One pinpoint pass to such a player and Whelan is gone, out of the game. Too slow to track a runner and a poor poor tackler to boot. So i'll ask again, what is such a poor defensive shield doing provide cover in front of our defence for the last 5 or 6 years? Neither capable of playing box to box with creativity or mobility nor able to adequately provide defensive protection?

These are the questions the guys on RTE need to start asking aswell, not once have they aimed any criticism over selection of some of these first XI mainstays. Its frankly outrageous.

Paul McShane, Darren O'Dea, Stephen Ward, Paul Green, Glenn Whelan, Andy Keogh, Connor Sammon. Personally, I think its criminal that some of these guys get in the squad let alone get any game time. Its actually shameful.

G.K.

Mars Bar wrote: »

Doubt it. Pilkington and Hoolahan were both in the squad.

And there was Martin Olsson playing for Sweden too.