And it begins..................

UDP

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It only came home to be covered it went back this morning. The teacher spoke to me about it and said that they do not ask that the tasks for parents be completed at home and that the book won't be coming home. She tried to convince me that I did not need to opt out and that it's all very 'general'. Whatever that means? What is 'general' indoctrination?

Did you stick with opting out or is it left unsure?

Kiwi in IE

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats a very odd respose,

Just because its "general" doesn't mean its not indoctrination. If its pushing a specific faith thats exactly what its intented for.

Did you ask for clarification on what very general means when it comes to a specific faith?

Perhaps the teacher could explain to you how something pushing the Islamic faith would be very general for comparisons sake, just so you can understand why there would be no need to opt out.

When I used the 'genuflecting' as an example of what we find unacceptable, she waved her hand at me and said "ah now we don't do anything like that". Then she said that she "might have mentioned God last week but that was all". I am getting the feeling that my concerns are being minimised and I'm being fobbed off. It was more than only "mentioning God", little Kiwi came home showing us how he learnt to 'bless himself'. And if they don't do 'genuflecting' why is it in the text book that they use?

I realise it is a Catholic school and that sort of nonsense is to be expected, so why are they not being honest with me? And why do both the Principal and Teacher insist that there is no reason to opt out on account of the religion being 'general'?

I actually wonder do they not believe that we are not any religion, and think that seeing as we are not Catholic we must be Protestant. Maybe that is what the 'general' talk is about. 'General' Christianity not specific Catholicism. If so that would not be the first time I have encountered disbelief! My own mother in law refuses to believe I am an atheist.

Beruthiel

I don't think you're being taken seriously Kiwi.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

She tried to convince me that I did not need to opt out and that it's all very 'general'.

I call bullsh!t.
So they won't be preparing the kids for Holy Communion at some point in the future then....?
If you don't intend to have your child participate in that, you need to make it very clear to the teachers involved that this is the case.

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

She tried to convince me that I did not need to opt out and that it's all very 'general'. Whatever that means?

She's probably trying to avoid (a) having to provide cover in another classroom or the same classroom for your child; or (b) having other parents notice that one person has stood up and potentially losing more students.

One easy option is to leave an iPad or something like that with the teacher so your child could play with that in class while everybody else is being told about what a nice chap this Jesus bloke is.

As you say, there's nothing "general" about indoctrination at this age -- it's specifically targeted at vulnerable, trusting minds because it works.

Beruthiel

robindch wrote: »

As you say, there's nothing "general" about indoctrination at this age

Learning how to bless yourself isn't general. Unless every single other religion on the planet do it the same way.

Kiwi in IE

UDP wrote: »

Did you stick with opting out or is it left unsure?

The teacher was insistent that there is no need as it is 'only general' and integrated throughout the school day. She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents. I don't really know what to do. I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

Sarky

It's hardly a war asking for them to actually respect the rights of you and your child.

gaynorvader

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The teacher was insistent that there is no need as it is 'only general' and integrated throughout the school day. She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents. I don't really know what to do. I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

Catch her in private. Tell her you found her bringing up what you viewed as a private matter as wholly inappropriate. Tell her you'd like to find a solution that causes as little fuss as possible without belittling your own beliefs. Tell her you'd like to opt out your child as no matter how 'general' she views it, to you it is not acceptable that he be taught these things as fact.

SpaceTime

Like most things, Ireland will only resolve this stuff when it's dragged (kicking and screaming) through the European Courts at some stage in the future.

Until then ... It'll be ah sure it's grand.

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I am getting the feeling that my concerns are being minimised and I'm being fobbed off.

Minimized, yes. I had something a bit similar in a Montessori school in South Dublin some years back after making my views politely clear at the beginning of the school year. I did get the impression that nobody had ever stood up to religious control and they simply weren't quite sure how to handle it and resorted just to some very vague hand-waving.

I do remember the headmistress -- who, in fairness did take my request fairly seriously, if disbelievingly -- mentioning that the religious stuff was all fine because it was "taught inclusively" (whatever that means) and because they'd an imam in to say some prayers to balance the presence of the local parish priest who, I was assured, "is a great guy and even hands out sweets to the kids" (no comment).

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents. I don't really know what to do. I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

Sounds like she's playing power-politics to me, though perhaps unintentionally.

At this stage, would it be worth requesting a meeting with the teacher and the school head to discuss it? This certainly can be resolved amicably and without hassle and it does sound like they're just not sure what your expectations are.

I Heart Internet

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I had not asked that he be excluded from the religion classes as I don't want him sat alone somewhere.

Yesterday the 'Alive O' book came home. .

Perhaps the two are connected? If you don't want him engaging with religion class and religious aspects of the school, could you not ask that he sit it out? Ditto with the book - just send it back..."no thanks".

Beruthiel

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents.

I already don't like this woman.
A discussion on a personal matter with regards to your child and she thinks it's acceptable to have it in front of everyone?

I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

I don't see it as a war.
I see it as an expectation with regards to your rights.
What if you were of the muslim or jewish faith? Would it still be acceptable for this teacher to teach them how to bless themselves in the catholic way?
Are there only Irish catholic kids going to this school?

gaynorvader

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Perhaps the two are connected? If you don't want him engaging with religion class and religious aspects of the school, could you not ask that he sit it out? Ditto with the book - just send it back..."no thanks".

I feel like you read about 2% of the thread.

Cabaal

Just had a quick google about that workbook:

Synopsis
Alive-O is a multimedia, interdisciplinary Religious Education programme for four to twelve year olds. The title Alive-O reflects one of the overriding concerns of religious education, namely, to enable people to become fully alive to the presence of God in themselves, in others, in the church, and in the world around them.

Not sure how this is general if the religious teachings are based in anyway around this workbook especially given how its backed by the catholic church http://www.catholicireland.net/the-alive-o-programme/

and if this is covered in the book/programme then it is most certainly indoctrination

In the course of the Primary School, a child will receive the Sacraments of First Holy Communion, Reconciliation and Confirmation. Apart from these, for most children there is a constant exposure to the liturgical life of the Christian community. The programme in Junior and Senior Infants focuses on the four seasons and then from 1st class onwards the programme has many lessons based on the liturgical year: Ash Wednesday and Lent; Easter and Pentecost; the months of October and May for Mary; Advent and Christmas; November and the Commemoration of the Dead. Each year the children are introduced to an Irish saint and by the end of 6th class they will be familiar with the Seven Sacraments of the Church, will know the various prayers and responses of the Mass, and will have learned the mysteries of the Rosary. It is important that this liturgical formation is done according to their young age and faith, and so it is done over the eight years of primary school. However, and this is essential, liturgical education will fail abysmally if it becomes something that is only done in school. By showing children that going to Mass is not something that you just do in school; that the sacred and spiritual dimension of feasts such as Christmas, Easter, St Patrick’s Day and so on are not just the dimension reserved for school, we give the children an opportunity to grow in faith beyond the confines of the school.

Somebody did this very helpful analysis of the Alive O programme, covers everything involved so good way of getting to know exactly what any kid will involved in if they use this programme

http://eannajohnson.org/wp/wp-content/.../02/An-Analysis-of-Alive-O-6.doc‎

Sarky

Oh, they mean "inclusive" as in "We'll include everyone in the Catholic indoctrination!" That makes sense.

Beruthiel

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, they mean "inclusive" as in "We'll include everyone in the Catholic indoctrination!" That makes sense.

Aahhh.
Thanks for clearing that up Sarky, that does indeed make more sense.

Cabaal

Oh man its sneaky as well

Introduction,

The Programme presents itself on its covers and title page simply as “ALIVE-O”. This title in itself does not convey anything Catholic, Christian, or even religious.

So...its not catholic then?

There are 28 lessons in Alive-O book 6 arranged in three terms, as follows:
Term 1: Lesson 1. Within God's creation.
Lesson 2. And God said……
Lesson 3. Jesus and Creation.
Lesson 4. St Francis Cares for Creation.
Lesson 5. Mary.
Lesson 6. God nourishes us.
Lesson 7. God sent Jesus to nourish us.
Lesson 8. God Sent the Holy Spirit to Nourish Us.
Lesson 9. Happy Ever After.
Lesson 10. Loving God.
Lesson 11. Loving My Neighbour.
Lesson 12. Come to the Manger.

Oh I see what they've done there.....

Sarky

So it's religious indoctrination with the thinnest, most pathetic pretense of a veneer of inclusiveness. How very Catholic.

Turtwig

Reasonably sure that a couple of our friends from Youth Defence are involved in selecting it's curriculum too. I know I know, that's poisoning the well but still.
The program is awful!

gaynorvader

Cabaal wrote: »

Oh man its sneaky as well

Introduction,



So...its not catholic then?


Oh I see what they've done there.....

Christian not Catholic. Inclusive!

Sarky

Jernal wrote: »

I know I know, that's poisoning the well but still.

ಠ_ಠ

Kiwi in IE

Beruthiel wrote: »

I don't think you're being taken seriously Kiwi.



I call bullsh!t.
So they won't be preparing the kids for Holy Communion at some point in the future then....?
If you don't intend to have your child participate in that, you need to make it very clear to the teachers involved that this is the case.

I told them when I enrolled him that he is not any religion and will not be doing communion or confirmation. I reiterated that to the principal the other day.

I expected problems with this certainly, but not such a nightmare so quickly.

I Heart Internet

http://education.dublindiocese.ie/2012/02/21/alive-o-programme/

The Alive-O programme is the core resource for the teaching of Religious Education in every Catholic Primary School in Ireland. The title Alive-O reflects one of the overriding concerns of Religious Education, namely, to enable people to become fully alive in the presence of God in themselves, in others, in the Church and in all creation.

The Alive-O programme isn't the Trojan Horse some people are trying to make it out to be. It is designed, quite straightforwardly, to teach catholic children about the catholic faith.

The programme is actually criticised by more traditionalist catholics as not "being catholic enough". They, perhaps, share the dim view on the text of people here.

I suspect the teacher in this case feels that describing the religious education in the school as "all very general" will address your fears. She is doing a disservice - either she's teaching the catholic faith or she's not.

Kiwi in IE

Beruthiel wrote: »

Are there only Irish catholic kids going to this school?

Not at all. The principal mentioned to me that there is a COI child who just sits in on religious classes. Clearly that's ok though because the teaching is 'general'.

old hippy

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The teacher was insistent that there is no need as it is 'only general' and integrated throughout the school day. She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents. I don't really know what to do. I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

And this is what they do. Bend you to their will, gently. Don't be fooled.

Kiwi in IE

He will be sat out. OH and I will make an appointment with the principal and insist upon it. I am not fooled by their 'general' wiffle waffle. I don't want 'general' Christianity any more than specific Christianity shoved down his throat. I have been approaching it very softly and politely so far, but my approach clearly needs to change. I am on night shifts this week which makes it all quite difficult to deal with.

Beruthiel

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I told them when I enrolled him that he is not any religion and will not be doing communion or confirmation. I reiterated that to the principal the other day.

And yet, they are continuing as usual and completely ignoring you.
Personally, I'd be getting the red rage round about now.

I Heart Internet

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

He will be sat out. OH and I will make an appointment with the principal and insist upon it. I am not fooled by their 'general' wiffle waffle. I don't want 'general' Christianity any more than specific Christianity shoved down his throat. I have been approaching it very softly and politely so far, but my approach clearly needs to change. I am on night shifts this week which makes it all quite difficult to deal with.

I'm genuinely curious - do you suspect your stated wishes are being ignored because:

a) the principal and staff want to win a soul (you child's) for the church, or
b) the principal and staff want an easy life and will just carry on, business as usual, until a child's parents really make an issue of it and insist they adapt their systems to deal with the issue?

Something tells me laziness triumphs over zeal for souls for most people.

Cabaal

I think its likely a mixture of "ah sure its not a big deal" and laziness,

It's the same thing that causes people to be outrages by the vatican church and to not agree with it, but at the same time continue to christian their kids, go ahead with communions and continue to tick catlick on the census form.

Kiwi in IE

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious - do you suspect your stated wishes are being ignored because:

a) the principal and staff want to win a soul (you child's) for the church, or
b) the principal and staff want an easy life and will just carry on, business as usual, until a child's parents really make an issue of it and insist they adapt their systems to deal with the issue?

Something tells me laziness triumphs over zeal for souls for most people.

B

With a bit of 'sure why would anyone want to do anything differently from how we have always done it?' thrown in. I definitely get a mild sense of 'What is wrong with you? Why can't you just be like everyone else and get on with it. Why on earth are you not just Catholic like the rest of us?'

I Heart Internet

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

B

With a bit of 'sure why would anyone want to do anything differently from how we have always done it?' thrown in. I definitely get a mild sense of 'What is wrong with you? Why can't you just be like everyone else and get on with it. Why on earth are you not just Catholic like the rest of us?'

That's unfortunate OP.

Could you outline what, exactly, you'd like the school to do? Bearing in mind, like it or not, it is a school operating under catholic patronage and ethos.

mohawk

SpaceTime wrote: »

Like most things, Ireland will only resolve this stuff when it's dragged (kicking and screaming) through the European Courts at some stage in the future.

Until then ... It'll be ah sure it's grand.

You would want to be very brave in bringing a case to Europe. I would expect the following:
Would you look at them bringing a case to Europe. Why can't they get on with it like the rest of us. Who do they think they are?? Sure what harm will it do? I went to a catholic school and it did me no harm.

That doesn't even take into account what the likes of YD or Iona would be saying.

Skrynesaver

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That's unfortunate OP.

Could you outline what, exactly, you'd like the school to do? Bearing in mind, like it or not, it is a school operating under catholic patronage and ethos.

I'd imagine, as it's operating under a government subvention, the OP would like them to stop misrepresenting belief as fact to OP's child. Ideally by restricting this codology to a set time and allowing children who have opted out to do something useful with the time instead.

I Heart Internet

Skrynesaver wrote: »

I'd imagine, as it's operating under a government subvention, the OP would like them to stop misrepresenting belief as fact to OP's child. Ideally by restricting this codology to a set time and allowing children who have opted out to do something useful with the time instead.

I think the OP said that they specifically didn't ask to have their child opted out but will now. Perhaps that will go a long way to solving the problem?

smacl

Skrynesaver wrote: »

I'd imagine, as it's operating under a government subvention, the OP would like them to stop misrepresenting belief as fact to OP's child. Ideally by restricting this codology to a set time and allowing children who have opted out to do something useful with the time instead.

I think there's also a fear in these establishments of the slippery slope. Once one child opts out, many of his/her mates and their parents will realise that RE is not compulsory and want to opt out too. Sure the place would be crawling with heathens before you could blink

Kiwi in IE

Cabaal wrote: »

Somebody did this very helpful analysis of the Alive O programme, covers everything involved so good way of getting to know exactly what any kid will involved in if they use this programme

http://eannajohnson.org/wp/wp-content/.../02/An-Analysis-of-Alive-O-6.doc‎

I have been reading through this.

The more I learn about this religion the worse it gets!

Kiwi in IE

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think the OP said that they specifically didn't ask to have their child opted out but will now. Perhaps that will go a long way to solving the problem?

If you read back you will see that when I enquired about opting him out I was told firstly that religion permeates the school day rather that being a specific subject and secondly that I don't need to worry and there should be no need to opt him out as the teaching is very 'general'.

The reason I was enquiring about opting him out, rather than demanding that it be done, is that I don't yet know and have not yet discussed, what alternative arrangements will be made for my child.

And thanks but I'm well aware that it is a school with a Catholic 'ethos and patronage'. My family however are not Catholic, nor are we Protestant. And the Irish State only provides schools in our area that are appropriate for Catholics or Protestants. No one else. So we don't have a lot of choice really.

gaynorvader

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

If you read back you will see that when I enquired about opting him out I was told firstly that religion permeates the school day rather that being a specific subject and secondly that I don't need to worry and there should be no need to opt him out as the teaching is very 'general'.

The reason I was enquiring about opting him out, rather than demanding that it be done, is that I don't yet know and have not yet discussed, what alternative arrangements will be made for my child.

And thanks but I'm well aware that it is a school with a Catholic 'ethos and patronage'. My family however are not Catholic, nor are we Protestant. And the Irish State only provides schools in our area that are appropriate for Catholics or Protestants. No one else. So we don't have a lot of choice really.

I went to a Protestant school and most of my friends went to a Catholic school. My school seemed to put a lot less emphasis on religion than theirs, but it could have just been my specific school.

Kidchameleon

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

or give your son some really tricky questions (there are at least a few appropriate to 4-5 year olds) about religion which will cause the teacher trouble answering them.

Its so sad that you would consider using a child like this

PopePalpatine

It's so sad that the Catholic Church would consider softly indoctrinating our kids. :mad:

old hippy

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Its so sad that you would consider using a child like this

Lesser of two evils.

gaynorvader

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Its so sad that you would consider using a child like this

Children are always being used like this, by everyone.

Days 298

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's so sad that the Catholic Church would consider softly indoctrinating our kids. :mad:

Well how else would they keep up the census stats? Its quite impressive (mainly saddening) how so many continue identify as Catholic without a seconds thought or stepping in a church in years and clash with many of the churches social beliefs.

Hotblack Desiato

UDP wrote: »

Big difference between individual teachers and an entire union. No teacher in a catholic school has the right to refuse to teach the curriculum and hold on to their job. The school can legally fire a teacher it. Do you really expect a teacher to put their job on the line in the hope that there will be an all out teacher strike in support? Its just not fair to expect that. Plus it is the newer teachers that are most likely to be atheist and they have very little power/sway in the unions.

Yes they are expected to teach the curriculum.

What about teachers who have lost their job because of their private life outside school?
E.g. cohabiting outside marriage, or being openly gay.
The spinlessness of the unions in the face of this discrimination (which would be illegal if any other employer tried it) is disgraceful. You'd think they'd want their profession to have the same legal protection all other employees get.

Kidchameleon

gaynorvader wrote: »

Children are always being used like this, by everyone.

Speak for yourself. Not me.

gaynorvader

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Speak for yourself. Not me.

I actually don't even have children. When I said everyone I was using the term metaphorically, not literally. You see organisations and people using children to push their own agendas all the time was more or less my point.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Its so sad that you would consider using a child like this

It's unbelievable that the state pays for schools that are controlled by the one organization that should be banned forever from having contact with children.

Kiwi in IE

It dosn't seem like this ethos/patronage/religious indoctrination situation within the Education system is going to change anytime soon. Therefore it should be mandatory that religious indoctrination is defined to a specific timeframe (no 'permeation' WTF does religion have to do with Maths, Science or Literacy?) and that classes are held at the end of a school day so that those of us who live in the real world, and want the same for our children, can collect them early on those days!

gaynorvader

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It dosn't seem like this ethos/patronage/religious indoctrination situation within the Education system is going to change anytime soon. Therefore it should be mandatory that religious indoctrination is defined to a specific timeframe (no 'permeation' WTF does religion have to do with Maths, Science or Literacy?) and that classes are held at the end of a school day so that those of us who live in the real world, and want the same for our children, can collect them early on those days!

I'd go one step further and expect the school to be forced to put on an extra class in place of religious education. A real one, not "study time". Maybe an extra language or some basic computing.

Pawwed Rig

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Therefore it should be mandatory that religious indoctrination is defined to a specific timeframe (no 'permeation' WTF does religion have to do with Maths, Science or Literacy?) and that classes are held at the end of a school day so that those of us who live in the real world, and want the same for our children, can collect them early on those days!

From what I remember religion was usually 9am-9:40 but then you would have to pray before lunch and again at home time. Also there may be visits from the local priest that could happen at any time of the day. We also had to do singing which was all religious based along with learning religion in Irish class.
Come church holidays the art and craft classes would be devoted to a manger/ Paddy's day card, Brigids cross etc etc etc. In hindsight it was very religious orientated but seemed perfectly normal at the time.