And it begins..................

smacl

gaynorvader wrote: »

Children are always being used like this, by everyone.

I think many children are regularly used like this would be a bit fairer. Similarly, many parents like myself would not knowingly put their children in this situation. Then again, if two adults offer contradictory facts to a young child, most of them will ask directly which one is lying and which one is telling the truth.

smacl

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It dosn't seem like this ethos/patronage/religious indoctrination situation within the Education system is going to change anytime soon.

I'm not so sure, but it depends on your time frame. I was lucky enough to go to became the first ET school back in the day, and things have changed massively for the better since then. You only have to go back a few decades and it was swarms of brothers and nuns actually teaching, whereas now they're a rarity. As time goes on, I think the catholic churches foothold in education will be further eroded to the point where it will collapse entirely. Whatever about faith and Christianity, I don't think the Irish people really trust the church much anymore.

SpaceTime

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's so sad that the Catholic Church would consider softly indoctrinating our kids. :mad:

Softly indoctrinating is a major improvement on their previous system of beating faith into you with a big stick (or ruler) which is what most of our parents and grandparents got!

I've heard the horror stories of my grandparent's generation getting beaten to pulp for not memorising catechism (doctrine) correctly. That's about as primitive as 'indoctrination' gets. That and spending hours and hours praying and chanting during the school day.

I think part of the problem in Ireland is that the majority of adults see education as being some kind of a religious function because that's what they experienced themselves. You got educated by "the brothers" or "the nuns", even though in reality they were just outsources and the state was actually paying and employing the teachers.

I remember as a kid myself our teacher used to make us recite this "bless the hands that made the food... bless Oh God - Amen" thing every break and lunch time!
In my head, I had this vision of Terminator-style robot hands in Old Mister Brennan's Bread Factory making the bread though!

My granny was telling me that for years in school she thought she was praying for this poor unfortunate cross-eyed teddy bear, because a line in a prayer had "the cross I would bear".

It just shows what utter nonsense it is to even feed kids some of these very abstract, weirdly written and often quite gruesome tales too.

Mr_A

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

When I used the 'genuflecting' as an example of what we find unacceptable, she waved her hand at me and said "ah now we don't do anything like that". Then she said that she "might have mentioned God last week but that was all". I am getting the feeling that my concerns are being minimised and I'm being fobbed off. It was more than only "mentioning God", little Kiwi came home showing us how he learnt to 'bless himself'. And if they don't do 'genuflecting' why is it in the text book that they use?

I realise it is a Catholic school and that sort of nonsense is to be expected, so why are they not being honest with me? And why do both the Principal and Teacher insist that there is no reason to opt out on account of the religion being 'general'?

I actually wonder do they not believe that we are not any religion, and think that seeing as we are not Catholic we must be Protestant. Maybe that is what the 'general' talk is about. 'General' Christianity not specific Catholicism. If so that would not be the first time I have encountered disbelief! My own mother in law refuses to believe I am an atheist.

This reflects our experience almost exactly. The school staff minimised the role religion plays in the school to a degree unrecognisable from what actually happens. However, I don't think it's sinister, I think they genuinely don't notice how much of it there is. When we had to remind a teacher that our little one was opted out she was very embarrassed (in fairness she had not been told, not her fault) and immediately said it was all about being friends and being nice anyway. Which looking at the stuff on Alive-O above is clearly nonsense. She also honestly said without irony that they hardly pray- just in the morning at lunchtime and at home time!

Anyhow, my wife made up work books (these were actually general) so that she would never just be sitting there when the rest were doing their thing. One year we actually got it copied so the other girl opting out would have it too. And as I said earlier in the thread it has been generally fine, although 1st communion was tricky at times (they brought her to the church a few times with the rest and all and she did up just sitting there waiting for it to be over which was unfair- we complained and it stopped).

Hang in there, stand your ground, be there for your kid and it'll all work out. And they'll probably thank you for it in years to come.

* There may be some teenage hating you for it. That's standard.

gaynorvader

smacl wrote: »

I think many children are regularly used like this would be a bit fairer. Similarly, many parents like myself would not knowingly put their children in this situation. Then again, if two adults offer contradictory facts to a young child, most of them will ask directly which one is lying and which one is telling the truth.

The pedants are out in force! I clarified above, I was using the terms metaphorically. It was a poor choice of words in hindsight.

SpaceTime

Bear in mind too that a majority of staff, at primary level anyway, will have been educated in a very religious context themselves and will have very little experience of non-religious eduction environments.

The majority of Irish primary teachers go from secondary school (mostly religious ethos environment) to one of two teacher training colleges Mary Immaculate College in Limerick or Saint Patrick's College in Drumcondra or in the case of C of I schools the Church of Ireland College of Education.

Some come in via other routes and may have normal secular 3rd level education too, but most are pretty well indoctrinated themselves.

The result is that you're talking to an educational professional who has a very odd view of religion's place in the classroom and may see what they are teaching as totally minimal and general.

Second level teachers are trained entirely differently i.e. have primary degrees from a normal university and do a postgraduate degree / higher diploma in education to learn how to teach so they're much more 'secular' potentially.

Obliq

gaynorvader wrote: »

Catch her in private. Tell her you found her bringing up what you viewed as a private matter as wholly inappropriate. Tell her you'd like to find a solution that causes as little fuss as possible without belittling your own beliefs. Tell her you'd like to opt out your child as no matter how 'general' she views it, to you it is not acceptable that he be taught these things as fact.

Totally that. Sorry, just catching up now and haven't read the last few pages fully, but this is important to you and should be respected by the teachers so what he said really. That was an awkward position she put you in, and she needs to know it's about as acceptable as discussing your child being bullied/in trouble in front of other parents.

Of course you don't want to come across as "scarily annoying mum" on your first week, so I recommend give it a few days or weeks before having a go at this. A bit of distance for yourself won't hurt, and don't forget - he's learning nothing irreversible and nothing that he won't discriminate about for himself as time goes by. I'll never forget my Dad's advice on this (being a good CBC boy from one of the toughest areas in Dublin who stood up to Jesuits age 12 and earned himself a reputation...left school at 14). "He'll lose it all with his first pint", were his words and although the drink culture is "a thing", I knew what he meant.

Be sure not to draw ANY attention to the RE lessons with your young fella (I wondered how you found out about him crossing himself without you having made a point of it already?) That will make things awkward for him when he feels he may have to go against you in class. I know this is crap, but honestly my boys haven't an ounce of religion or spirituality, and my eldest could give a run for his money up against some of our regular Xtians.

Above all, seriously - relax and enjoy his first few weeks in school! This is nothing towards his future, just a bit of keeping teacher in check for you to do. And some upfront explanations FROM YOU that he won't be participating in the same rituals, but you can leave that off unless for a while unless he starts showing enthusiasm for jeebus (in which case, haul his ass somewhere else eh?)

My 2 cents - don't want to sound knowledgable here, every school is different. Good luck hon xx

Banbh

I had not asked that he be excluded from the religion classes as I don't want him sat alone somewhere.

We did ask - well we told the school - and have had our wish respected. Our kids have always had to sit in the room when religion was going on but do their homework or read. On occasion, we have had to remind the school or a new teacher that we are not religious but it has never come to anything stronger than that.
I think many teachers are also non-religious and may even resent being used by the Catholic Church to push their line.
The swing away from the Catholic Church now means that our younger child is not the only non-religious kid in class but our eldest, now in Leaving Cert year, ploughed a lone furrow and it has made a very strong-willed young woman of her.

Kiwi in IE

Obliq wrote: »

Be sure not to draw ANY attention to the RE lessons with your young fella (I wondered how you found out about him crossing himself without you having made a point of it already?)

No I havn't made any issue of it in front of Little Kiwi. It just came up during chat about what he did in school including playing pirates at break time and rescuing a 'mermaid'. I think I maintained a neutral face!

Kiwi in IE

SpaceTime wrote: »

Bear in mind too that a majority of staff, at primary level anyway, will have been educated in a very religious context themselves and will have very little experience of non-religious eduction environments.

The majority of Irish primary teachers go from secondary school (mostly religious ethos environment) to one of two teacher training colleges Mary Immaculate College in Limerick or Saint Patrick's College in Drumcondra or in the case of C of I schools the Church of Ireland College of Education.

I had no idea the teacher training colleges also have this religious 'ethos' nonsense! I had assumed they were run within ordinary colleges and universities. Can I ask why the Irish State allows teachers to be trained in an environment of attempted religious indoctrination? Or is that another unanswerable question? I am unsure why the state even bothers to have an Education Department! They may as well just hand it over to the appropriate division of the Vatican and pay them the current education budget.

SpaceTime

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I had no idea the teacher training colleges also have this religious 'ethos' nonsense! I had assumed they were run within ordinary colleges and universities. Can I ask why the Irish State allows teachers to be trained in an environment of attempted religious indoctrination? Or is that another unanswerable question? I am unsure why the state even bothers to have an Education Department! They may as well just hand it over to the appropriate division of the Vatican and pay them the current education budget.

It's just 'one of those things'.

I think we should be looking at perhaps establishing teacher-training colleges in say UCC and UCG for a start to give students who want to be come teachers the choice of going to a secular institution and having a normal university education.

UCC has a very well-established education department and early childhood studies department and a pretty seriously big department of psychology and is in Ireland's second largest city.

AFAIK, UCC has had a lot of connections with Educate Together too.

UCG/NUIG is basically on the edge of the Gaeltacht and has all those things too. It'd be a wonderful place to go if you wanted to be an Irish-speaking teacher in particular.

It's a bit unfair to not give primary teaching students similar options to second level teachers and other students.

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I had no idea the teacher training colleges also have this religious 'ethos' nonsense!

See here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056144931

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Can I ask why the Irish State allows teachers to be trained in an environment of attempted religious indoctrination?

Reminds me of the following few lines from one or other of -- I think -- Aristophanes' plays:

Passing fool: Hey, you're a politician, aren't you?
Politician: Yes, I am.
Fool: What qualifications do you have to exercise such power?
Politician: None, other than simply wanting it.

Obliq

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

They may as well just hand it over to the appropriate division of the Vatican and pay them the current education budget.

Yup, now you have it. That is exactly what they're doing.

lynski

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

No I havn't made any issue of it in front of Little Kiwi. It just came up during chat about what he did in school including playing pirates at break time and rescuing a 'mermaid'. I think I maintained a neutral face!

We did not draw any attention to religion or religious instruction with my daughter in pre-school as it did not occur to us that a community pre-school would teach any religious content. It was an absolute shock when she started to bless herself and say grace. When I raised it they could not really see the problem, they did not argue with me but I could see that they were thinking its only a prayer.

SpaceTime

There is probably grounds for a constitutional case against the state as I really can't see how the system is compliant with constitutional religious freedom requirements.

Failing that, I think a case before the European Courts could be another potential option as it's basically just riding roughshod over citizens rights to religious freedom

It's far beyond just a bit of religious symbolism in buildings or whatever and what's scarier is that I don't think the staff even understand how seriously strange it is!

Maybe it's time concerned parents pooled some resources and start to look at legal action?

Banbh

It is quite common with those who discriminate that they don't realise they are doing it, and when challenged respond with the 'it's only...' or 'sure nobody minds' or 'what's the big deal.'

For things to change, people have to stand up for their rights.

Rosa Parks, and a lot others, could still be sitting at the back of that bus.

Banbh

Maybe it's time concerned parents pooled some resources and start to look at legal action?

Count me in.

lynski

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's far beyond just a bit of religious symbolism in buildings or whatever and what's scarier is that I don't think the staff even understand how seriously strange it is!

There it is, I think a lot if Irish people don't even think of communion and baptism as catholic just "what is done" the reflex/ingrained catholism is thoughtless and almost subconscious.

Kiwi in IE

lynski wrote: »

We did not draw any attention to religion or religious instruction with my daughter in pre-school as it did not occur to us that a community pre-school would teach any religious content. It was an absolute shock when she started to bless herself and say grace. When I raised it they could not really see the problem, they did not argue with me but I could see that they were thinking its only a prayer.

I wonder if the pre-school manager you spoke to would see the problem if it were his/her child and they came home reciting Muslim prayers and rituals? Somehow I suspect they would. I'm not sure why there is such a lack of intelligence and sensitivity to the fact that not all people/children/families are identical. There appears to be a lot of people in denial of the fact that in 2013 First World Countries are incompatible with cultural homogeneity.

Pawwed Rig

Ha can you imagine the uproar when a class of 5 years olds go home and at a set time of the day get down on their knees and face towards Meccah.

Kiwi in IE

Banbh wrote: »

Count me in.

Me too. I am tired of feeling powerless and frustrated about this particular issue.

Kiwi in IE

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Ha can you imagine the uproar when a class of 5 years olds go home and at a set time of the day get down on their knees and face towards Meccah.

I would find this no more problematic the our current predicament. Little Kiwi coming home doing the above is the same to me as him coming home blessing himself.

gaynorvader

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I would find this no more problematic the our current predicament. Little Kiwi coming home doing the above is the same to me as him coming home blessing himself.

I think he was referring the uproar it would cause in Catholic households

Banbh

Maybe it's time concerned parents pooled some resources and start to look at legal action?

I recall that Atheist Ireland may have been looking at such action. If Michael Nugent is about, or any other AI member, maybe they could clarify this for us.

SpaceTime

It's partially because the staff are basically brought up and trained in that environment so they are not able to see that it could be a problem.

However at the top level there is a strong dose of religious zealotry that is deeply buried into the whole education system.

Elements of Official Ireland still see education as a religious function and either can't or won't see it as a universal public service.

You have to remember that while Ireland has become much more progressive and liberal that it is only a very recent thing and there are undoubtedly large hangovers from the old days still very heavily present in education.

I would compare Ireland more closely with post-Franco Spain then anywhere else.

We didn't have a dictatorship but we certainly had religious conservatives deeply involved in every aspect of public policy really until the 1990s in a lot of cases.

You could call it Church-State corporatism which is exactly what Spain had our only mitigating factor was that we were a democracy but we still incorporated religious bodies into public policy making and service delivery at the deepest levels with absolutely no regard for the constitutionally of it or how it might impact on democratic rights and personal freedom.

There are still large, completely unaddressed problems from the old regime that only become apparent when you go to a school or certain healthcare settings.

It still isn't changing quickly enough in some areas.

I think unlike Spain we have never really had to look in the mirror or admit that we had a deeply weird authoritarian, religious state for quite a long period of the 20th century.

Because the Spanish had a dictatorship they were at least able to box it off as another era when it finally fell and they rethought their democracy as a much different society.

Our setup just slowly evolved in the 70s, 80s and especially the 90s and I really don't think we ever really had a public debate on the whole area of the aftermath of that era.

Things like the legacy of all the institutional abuse victims etc is all about an attempt by a Corporatist Church-State alliance to socially engineer a 'Holy Ireland' where social problems and non conformists were locked away, marginalised or even basically run out of the country.

I think until we actually hold a mirror up to that aspect of our recent history and look at how we continue to provide some aspects of public service some things won't ever change.

Kiwi in IE

gaynorvader wrote: »

I think he was referring the uproar it would cause in Catholic households

Yeah I know. I didn't mean that to sound defensive. What I was trying to say is that the majority would be horrified by their kids coming home praying to Mecca, but many fail to understand that we face exactly the same scenario on a daily basis when forced to put our kids in a religious school. A state school should be able to cater equally to Muslim families, Catholic families and Atheist families. Anything else is unacceptable.

Morag

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I told them when I enrolled him that he is not any religion and will not be doing communion or confirmation. I reiterated that to the principal the other day.

I expected problems with this certainly, but not such a nightmare so quickly.

Told as in verbally, so that there is no record of it with the school?

Step one write a few letters to the principal, the current teacher and the board of management and clearly state in it that your child is of no religion that the parents are not catholic and that you are formally requesting that your child be opted out of the RE program and any other activities in other subjects which have religious context ie singing hyms as part of music, coloring in or drawing religious icons.


They honestly will try and test you at the start of the year to see will you just give in and take the path of least resistance and let your child be indoctrinated.

mohawk

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's partially because the staff are basically brought up and trained in that environment so they are not able to see that it could be a problem.

However at the top level there is a strong dose of religious zealotry that is deeply buried into the whole education system.

Elements of Official Ireland still see education as a religious function and either can't or won't see it as a universal public service.

You have to remember that while Ireland has become much more progressive and liberal that it is only a very recent thing and there are undoubtedly large hangovers from the old days still very heavily present in education.

I would compare Ireland more closely with post-Franco Spain then anywhere else.

We didn't have a dictatorship but we certainly had religious conservatives deeply involved in every aspect of public policy really until the 1990s in a lot of cases.

There are still large, completely unaddressed problems from the old regime that only become apparent when you go to a school or certain healthcare settings.

I heard a discussion on the radio once where they were discussing the dept of education. The officials running it are allegedly the most conservative of all the civil servants. There is also the issue I have seen mentioned here and in other places that it doesn't matter who the minister is because the top level civil servants are the ones who really run the dept.

Kiwi in IE

Banbh wrote: »

I recall that Atheist Ireland may have been looking at such action. If Michael Nugent is about, or any other AI member, maybe they could clarify this for us.

Maybe if anyone is about they could suggest steps to take to enquire about legal action via Europe. Only addressing it with our school is achieving nothing only my child being sat out but still absorbing it anyway. It's not particularly our schools fault. They are just a minor symptom of a widespread disease.

Morag

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Maybe if anyone is about they could suggest steps to take to enquire about legal action via Europe. Only addressing it with our school is achieving nothing only my child being sat out but still absorbing it anyway. It's not particularly our schools fault. They are just a minor symptom of a widespread disease.

I have found the school back down when we demand our human rights and that of our kids clearly. They don't want a mass/class action and will capitulate.

Pawwed Rig

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Yeah I know. I didn't mean that to sound defensive. What I was trying to say is that the majority would be horrified by their kids coming home praying to Mecca, but many fail to understand that we face exactly the same scenario on a daily basis when forced to put our kids in a religious school. A state school should be able to cater equally to Muslim families, Catholic families and Atheist families. Anything else is unacceptable.

That was my point. I do not see the difference either.

SpaceTime

mohawk wrote: »

I heard a discussion on the radio once where they were discussing the dept of education. The officials running it are allegedly the most conservative of all the civil servants. There is also the issue I have seen mentioned here and in other places that it doesn't matter who the minister is because the top level civil servants are the ones who really run the dept.

I wouldn't even necessarily say it is the high level officials. The problem is that there are all sorts of religious entities in the education system and they drove and continue to drive policy.

The Department itself compared to equivalent departments of education has very limited power. A huge amount of education policy is being set by state funded NGOs who still technically own the schools.

The big problem at the department in this day and age most likely inertia and fear of conflict.

The Department is also probably staffed by education experts who would have been educated by the same system too.

Ministers and high level officials can only have so much impact on a system that is basically indoctrinated from the ground up.

There was a very deliberate history of ensuring policy making power was devolved to schools and religious and away from government.

You would be surprised at how little power the department actually gave itself.

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

I recall that Atheist Ireland may have been looking at such action. If Michael Nugent is about, or any other AI member, maybe they could clarify this for us.

I've just emailed Michael to comment on AI's position on this.

Morag

Teach don't preach campgain is run by AI's education officer Jane Donnelly the site even has a sample letter for opting out.

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/opting-out/letter-for-primary-schools/

SpaceTime

I would point out that there is also a huge economic cost of fragmenting schools by creating gender and religious barriers.


We end up duplicating schools and all the management overheads, buildings and principals' salaries by having so many versions of the same thing.

The budget gets spread thin and you get poor service, larger class sizes (money could be spent on teachers), badly maintained buildings, closed rural schools, no libraries, sports facilities, science, IT etc etc

All to ensure boys don't meet girls and Catholics don't meet protestants or worse - heathens like the posters on this board!

It's not sustainable or even possible to keep fragmenting it further as society becomes more diverse either. Its expensive, it won't work in low density areas and its socially divisive and basically institutionalised sectarianism!

Secular, mixed gender, community schools would make a hell of a lot more sense and leave religion up to parents and religious organisations

I Heart Internet

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I had no idea the teacher training colleges also have this religious 'ethos' nonsense! I had assumed they were run within ordinary colleges and universities. Can I ask why the Irish State allows teachers to be trained in an environment of attempted religious indoctrination?

The various catholic teacher training colleges train catholic teachers to teach children in catholic ethos schools. It's not a conspiracy - it is simply the catholic church being organised enough to meet the demand for places in schools in catholic communities.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

A state school should be able to cater equally to Muslim families, Catholic families and Atheist families. Anything else is unacceptable.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no "state schools", certainly not primary schools, in Ireland. That's a misunderstanding of how the schooling system works.

Ireland's school system is based, like it or not, on a patronage model. Patrons such as the local diocese, Educate Together, the Edmund Rice Trust, etc run schools - not the State.

The State has effectively failed your child by not ensuring that there was a school that suits your philosphical viewpoint within a reasonable distance. Although, would a court see it that way? I honestly don't know. For now, it seems, you must make the best of it, for your child's sake, as we all would. Your child is going to the local catholic ethos school. They should be professional enough to manage their approach and your son's needs. It's early in the school term - perhaps they need you to remind them (as you've been doing). But you mentioned in an earlier post that this was "a nightmare". Is it? I can understand that you'd be upset and want to change things - but a nightmare?

SpaceTime

Yup the entire system is basically state funded with all staff state employees but they outsource the ethos and external management...

Great system to ensure the tax payer picks up the bill but the Bishop and parish priest call the shots.

The state was basically pushed into 'keeping its nose out' of education, health and at one stage social welfare by vested interests.

The chuch rallied against health reforms in the
1950s see: mother and child scheme etc etc

It was all about retaining 'soft power'

Bear in mind at one stage the Legion of Mary was tasked with running the probation service!!

This was one very odd place!

Scotty #

I'm an atheist but to be honest I think you have a neck choosing to send your kids to a catholic school and then demanding that their education is tailored to suit your non-catholic beliefs.

If this school were your only option it would be different but you said yourself you have other options, they're just too much of an inconvenience to you. There is a very very obvious solution to your problem!

Ghost Buster

Geomy wrote: »

My kid went through all that in school. ...

Does he talk about religion ?

No

Does he want to or feel like he needs to go to mass ?

No

Is he indoctrinated ?

No

I think times and attitudes have changed, no matter what your kid won't get indoctrinated.

You're not a religious family, you don't go to mass.

Keep it simple, try not to confuse the kid, at 5 its as simple as saying, "kid some people believe in God more people don't"

You tell a boy at a young age some men like men, like men like women...

The kid will more than likely think about it for a few seconds and say ok and keep on playing the x box or watching tv, playing etc

Good luck with it...

Thats pretty much the course I have taken with my boy. At the start of every year I made a point of collecting him on the first day from the class and having a very brief totally relaxed chat with the teacher to just say that we are not religious, have no real issue with him being in attendance when religion is happening but that we will more than likely be contradicting what he is taught ion school when at home. Its never been an issue. This year he moves into the whole First Communion charade and again the teacher has no issue with him doing homework and couldnt do enough to assure me that there is no problem.

SpaceTime

Scotty # wrote: »

I'm an atheist but to be honest I think you have a neck choosing to send your kids to a catholic school and then demanding that their education is tailored to suit your non-catholic beliefs.

If this school were your only option it would be different but you said yourself you have other options, they're just too much of an inconvenience to you. There is a very very obvious solution to your problem!

You realise that:
Over 95% of schools are religious?
In many areas there are no alternatives?
That you are legally obliged to send your kids to school.

That isn't giving people a choice! It's like saying go to catholic school or feck off !

The state is not providing a proper, open education system. So to say the op has a 'neck' is pretty ridiculous.

Perhaps those of us excluded from the 'public' education system should get a large tax refund for a service we basically can't use without facing discrimination?

gaynorvader

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The various catholic teacher training colleges train catholic teachers to teach children in catholic ethos schools. It's not a conspiracy - it is simply the catholic church being organised enough to meet the demand for places in schools in catholic communities.

I don't think it's as benign as you make out, it is certainly not "simply the catholic church being organised enough to meet demand for places in schools in catholic communities". Often they don't have enough places, these schools were almost universally established over 50 years ago. It's more a case of the catholic church continuing the tradition of religious indoctrination in children's formative years, because they are let. I agree it's not a conspiracy, it's worse, it's out in the open and people have resigned to it as the status quo.

I Heart Internet wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, there are no "state schools", certainly not primary schools, in Ireland. That's a misunderstanding of how the schooling system works.

Ireland's school system is based, like it or not, on a patronage model. Patrons such as the local diocese, Educate Together, the Edmund Rice Trust, etc run schools - not the State.

There are around 8-9 state schools, fyi The patrons do "run" these schools, only the state pays for them. That's where the problem arises.

Kiwi in IE

Scotty # wrote: »

I'm an atheist but to be honest I think you have a neck choosing to send your kids to a catholic school and then demanding that their education is tailored to suit your non-catholic beliefs.

If this school were your only option it would be different but you said yourself you have other options, they're just too much of an inconvenience to you. There is a very very obvious solution to your problem!

Yeah I could drive 2 hours a day and give up my job as well as absorbing the travel costs of that. I could also send him over to England to be schooled appropriately if I really wanted to. So I suppose I do have options, never mind any minor 'inconvenience'.

Ghost Buster

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Little Kiwi has started Junior Infants at the local National School.

He has been there only five days and they have not started proper lessons yet, however his class has been taught to 'bless' themselves already.

I had not asked that he be excluded from the religion classes as I don't want him sat alone somewhere.

Yesterday the 'Alive O' book came home. At the bottom of each lesson there is a task for parents to do with their children. Parents are asked to pray and go to the church with their children and one lesson even requests that the parent teach their child to 'genuflect'.

Now for some reason this 'genuflecting' business REALLY annoyed me! Firstly the assumption that I know how to 'genuflect' myself, or that I even know what 'genuflecting' is, and secondly, my child WILL NOT bower and scrape in a subservient manner before anyone or anything, least of all an imaginary sky fairy.

Now the dilemma is do I have him sat out of religion class? I have already made them aware that we are no religion, but I phoned the principal after the 'blessing' demonstration in my kitchen and after reading that book, to remind him that we are not in a Catholic school by choice and that none of it will be backed up at home.

For those of you unlucky enough to be in our position with no ET school within reasonable distance, how do you manage religion classes? Do you recommend opting out or just have them sit in on it and counteract at home?

As there are so few options for families of other or no religion, why is religion class not always last before home time so parents can just pick their children up early. This should be mandatory in all schools since the religion situation is so ridiculous.

Scotty # wrote: »

I'm an atheist but to be honest I think you have a neck choosing to send your kids to a catholic school and then demanding that their education is tailored to suit your non-catholic beliefs.

If this school were your only option it would be different but you said yourself you have other options, they're just too much of an inconvenience to you. There is a very very obvious solution to your problem!

Come again?

I Heart Internet

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Yeah I could drive 2 hours a day and give up my job as well as absorbing the travel costs of that. I could also send him over to England to be schooled appropriately if I really wanted to. So I suppose I do have options, never mind any minor 'inconvenience'.

Most primary schools in England, especially in rural areas are under the management of the Church of England. One usually hears reports of people, from all religions and none, wanting to get their kids into them because the standard of education is so high. Just saying.

gaynorvader

Scotty # wrote: »

I'm an atheist but to be honest I think you have a neck choosing to send your kids to a catholic school and then demanding that their education is tailored to suit your non-catholic beliefs.

If this school were your only option it would be different but you said yourself you have other options, they're just too much of an inconvenience to you. There is a very very obvious solution to your problem!

A two hour commute (each way!) to school is not much of an option. It's more than an inconvenience, it forces the parent to either quit their job, move, entrust their child's safety to a public bus service or spend a fortune on taxis. Why should this be the way for any tax paying member of our society when looking to provide education for their children? The State should not be funding any religious practices.

I Heart Internet

gaynorvader wrote: »

There are around 8-9 state schools, fyi The patrons do "run" these schools, only the state pays for them. That's where the problem arises.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm curious - are these VEC schools? Are they not "under the patronage of the VEC". Genuinely very curious - could you link to a few (if they have a website).

SpaceTime

I had the experience of being quizzed about why I didn't go to mass by a primary teacher when I was about 10.

It got really nasty and I started to fake illness on Mondays which resulted in me being sent to a psychologist who basically told me it would be easier if I just went to mass like a normal person.

I ended up going to mass on my own just so I had a gospel reference and cover story.

That was Dublin in the 90s

gaynorvader

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm curious - are these VEC schools? Are they not "under the patronage of the VEC". Genuinely very curious - could you link to a few (if they have a website).

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html

That's where I got my information, I don't have time right now to hunt them down.

Kiwi in IE

gaynorvader wrote: »

A two hour commute (each way!) to school is not much of an option.

Sorry. I might have made that sound worse than it is inadvertently. The closest ET is a half hour drive away. So I'd have to drive for two hours a day total (there and back twice). Not quite as bad as the above but still not really compatible with working.

Kiwi in IE

SpaceTime wrote: »

I had the experience of being quizzed about why I didn't go to mass by a primary teacher when I was about 10.

It got really nasty and I started to fake illness on Mondays which resulted in me being sent to a psychologist who basically told me it would be easier if I just went to mass like a normal person.

I ended up going to mass on my own just so I had a gospel reference and cover story.

That was Dublin in the 90s

That is disgusting!