Austria vs Ireland - WCQ Tuesday 7.45

yabadabado

Dunphy said he was wrong about Del Bosque and he ment Bilic.Bilic salary was 165K according to most sources.

Lennonist

Dempsey wrote: »

Ridiculous

It does appear to be fashionable with some posters here to be anti MON and it is ridiculous.

Dempsey wrote: »

At Villa, he made significant investment in average players and when he was told that his investment strategy was poor and basically cut off from overspending on limited players, he walked away. Looking at how he left things at Celtic, Villa & Sunderland doesnt inspire me at all. What will he do with limited pool of players that he cant change??

Again with the criticism of his transfer policy which has no bearing on international football. If he's up for the job, he'll get the best out of the current players Ireland has and that will be enough to qualify for the next Euros.

Dempsey wrote: »

He plays long ball, has his favourites, stubborn to changing tactics/personnel when things arent working and we just sacked a manager (an extremely successful one) who has all those flaws.

Again with the focus entirely on negative aspects to his managerial style and the disingenuous attempt to conflate him with Trap. He's not just a long ball merchant either, a simplistic and inaccurate assessment.

No mention of his abilities to get players - often ordinary players - to play well above what's expected of them. No mention of his ability to instil confidence in players which is badly needed with this Irish group after and since the Euro's in Poland.

He's the man the FAI appear to want and I hope he's up for it and takes it on.

Dempsey

Lennonist wrote: »

It does appear to be fashionable with some posters here to be anti MON and it is ridiculous.




Again with the criticism of his transfer policy which has no bearing on international football. If he's up for the job, he'll get the best out of the current players Ireland has and that will be enough to qualify for the next Euros.



Again with the focus entirely on negative aspects to his managerial style and the disingenuous attempt to conflate him with Trap. He's not just a long ball merchant either, a simplistic and inaccurate assessment.

No mention of his abilities to get players - often ordinary players - to play well above what's expected of them. No mention of his ability to instil confidence in players which is badly needed with this Irish group after and since the Euro's in Poland.

He's the man the FAI appear to want and I hope he's up for it and takes it on.

His transfer policy is a reflection of how he values players and finding players for his system over creating a system to accommodate the best players at his disposal. Do you want square pegs into round holes to continue for another 2 campaigns?

There is no mention of his motivational ability because John Robertson is a crucial component in his management. Remember that its Robertson and the other coaches that handle the day to day running of training etc and O'Neill does his talking on matchdays. He was lost at Sunderland without him.


Also forgot to mention his tragic track record at blooding young players, another flaw that we'll be keeping if MON is hired.

Lennonist

Dempsey wrote: »

His transfer policy is a reflection of how he values players and finding players for his system over creating a system to accommodate the best players at his disposal. Do you want square pegs into round holes to continue for another 2 campaigns?

You're trying to make out that he's totally inflexible in his managerial approach, this is a misleading and simplistic assessment.

Dempsey wrote: »

There is no mention of his motivational ability because John Robertson is a crucial component in his management. Remember that its Robertson and the other coaches that handle the day to day running of training etc and O'Neill does his talking on matchdays. He was lost at Sunderland without him.

When he took over at Sunderland he initially improved their form spectacularly and they maintained their top flight status. He appeared to lose interest then in the second season, he's 61 maybe doesn't have the appetite for the club game anymore, but that wouldn't stop him being useful in the international game. Hopefully he'll have Robertson or a similarly good coach with him.

He has his flaws like all managers do but he has great motivational skills, there's no argument about that whatsoever.

Dempsey wrote: »

Also forgot to mention his tragic track record at blooding young players, another flaw that we'll be keeping if MON is hired.

I'm sure the FAI will ask him about blooding youngsters and taking an interest in the youth set up. He introduced young players at Celtic that came through the ranks as well, McGeady, Maloney, Miller comes to mind.

Dempsey

Lennonist wrote: »

You're trying to make out that he's totally inflexible in his managerial approach, this is a misleading and simplistic assessment.

When he took over at Sunderland he initially improved their form spectacularly and they maintained their top flight status. He appeared to lose interest then in the second season, he's 61 maybe doesn't have the appetite for the club game anymore, but that wouldn't stop him being useful in the international game. Hopefully he'll have Robertson or a similarly good coach with him.

He has his flaws like all managers do but he has great motivational skills, there's no argument about that whatsoever.

I'm sure the FAI will ask him about blooding youngsters and taking an interest in the youth set up. He introduced young players at Celtic that came through the ranks as well, McGeady, Maloney, Miller comes to mind.

I didnt suggest he's totalling inflexible but he does have his system and he buys players to fit that. Do you really think he's going to implement a system he hasnt used regularly in an international setup? As you said, he's 61 and he hasnt adapted much in his career, so why would he start now?

MON without Robertson would be a mistake. You're underestimating his importance. We need more than a motivational speaker.

3 players in 5 year period? Hardly impressive and they were bench fodder at best under him for the u21 rule. It was Strachan that played Maloney & McGeady regularly and developed their game.

Lennonist

Dempsey wrote: »

I didnt suggest he's totalling inflexible but he does have his system and he buys players to fit that. Do you really think he's going to implement a system he hasnt used regularly in an international setup? As you said, he's 61 and he hasnt adapted much in his career, so why would he start now?

MON without Robertson would be a mistake. You're underestimating his importance. We need more than a motivational speaker.
3 players in 5 year period? Hardly impressive and they were bench fodder at best under him for the u21 rule. It was Strachan that played Maloney & McGeady regularly and developed their game.

It appears to me like you're backing yourself into å corner to such an extent that you are exaggerating his flaws while downplaying positive aspects of his abilities and record. I think you know better than that and that hed be an excellent choice if hes up for taking on the job.

Dempsey

Lennonist wrote: »

It appears to me like you're backing yourself into å corner to such an extent that you are exaggerating his flaws while downplaying positive aspects of his abilities and record. I think you know better than that and that hed be an excellent choice if hes up for taking on the job.

There is no exaggeration to his flaws and similarities to the outgoing manager. MONs has great motivational skills but thats all he has going for him and his best days are firmly behind him and even more so without his right hand man.

You're deluded if you think I'm backed into a corner! He'd be a decent choice to continue Trapattoni's legacy, no doubt about it but I rather someone with a more progressive and contemporary football philosophy that doesnt make me want to gouge out my eyes with a spoon!

Lennonist

Dempsey wrote: »

There is no exaggeration to his flaws and similarities to the outgoing manager. MONs has great motivational skills but thats all he has going for him and his best days are firmly behind him and even more so without his right hand man.

You're deluded if you think I'm backed into a corner! He'd be a decent choice to continue Trapattoni's legacy, no doubt about it but I rather someone with a more progressive and contemporary football philosophy that doesnt make me want to gouge out my eyes with a spoon!

You are exaggerating his flaws and downplaying his abilities just to continue your argument which is not at all convincing. He wouldn't be continuing Trap's legacy, he'd be a different manager entirely in terms of instilling confidence in his players. He would make use of all the talent at Ireland's disposal and get the best out of them. He'd be an excellent choice and a big success, I'm convinced of that. If he does get the job, you can always look away.

Banjaxed82

Let's be honest, nearly every Irish manager (barring probably Kerr & Trap) appointed in the last 30 years has been met with a skeptical eye from the Irish public.

This Martin O'Neill bashing is nothing new in the history of Irish managers. He wouldn't be my first choice, but I wouldn't presume to think that it's going to be a disaster or Trap (Mark 2) from the off.

Dempsey

Lennonist wrote: »

You are exaggerating his flaws and downplaying his abilities just to continue your argument which is not at all convincing. He wouldn't be continuing Trap's legacy, he'd be a different manager entirely in terms of instilling confidence in his players. He would make use of all the talent at Ireland's disposal and get the best out of them. He'd be an excellent choice and a big success, I'm convinced of that. If he does get the job, you can always look away.

Im not and again motivating the players isnt our biggest problem. you think id not support my country because of the manager the fai choose?

Lennonist

Dempsey wrote: »

Im not and again motivating the players isnt our biggest problem. you think id not support my country because of the manager the fai choose?

You are.

Motivating players is not the only thing he can do, for you to describe him solely as a motivational speaker is an insult.

As another poster says there's nothing new about Martin O'Neill bashing from some posters on this forum, it's just a bit weird that the MON bashing is also been engaged in by a Celtic fan like yourself who really should know better.

Dempsey

Lennonist wrote: »

You are.

Motivating players is not the only thing he can do, for you to describe him solely as a motivational speaker is an insult.

As another poster says there's nothing new about Martin O'Neill bashing from some posters on this forum, it's just a bit weird that the MON bashing is also been engaged in by a Celtic fan like yourself who really should know better.

Him managing Celtic doesnt save him from valid criticisms of his management style from me. Why should it??

You're focused on that one trait and unwilling to discuss his flaws as a manager in any detail. He left Celtic in a mess, he walked away from Villa in a mess and he made a mess worse for Sunderland. So how about we discuss what he's actually done in football instead of reiterating that he can motivate players like it outweighs all the negatives.

Lennonist

Dempsey wrote: »

Him managing Celtic doesnt save him from valid criticisms of his management style from me. Why should it??

You're focused on that one trait and unwilling to discuss his flaws as a manager in any detail. He left Celtic in a mess, he walked away from Villa in a mess and he made a mess worse for Sunderland. So how about we discuss what he's actually done in football instead of reiterating that he can motivate players like it outweighs all the negatives.

You're just repeating yourself now, talking about his transfer record again which is irrelevant to international football.

He has flaws in his managerial abilities - as every manager does - but I'm firmly convinced that his attributes outweigh his flaws significantly.

You know damn well what he has achieved in the game as a manager in a long career which has some failures but lots of success. I don't need to spell it out for you - but you've backed yourself into a corner and can't stop arguing.

The_Kew_Tour

If MON does get the job he will have my 1000% support.

But I will be honest I wont be expecting much from him.

If anything.

If he does get it I can see us doing well at the start. People will cream themselves, but give it another year and things will be different. Thats just a prediction.

Dempsey

Lennonist wrote: »

You're just repeating yourself now, talking about his transfer record again which is irrelevant to international football.

He has flaws in his managerial abilities - as every manager does - but I'm firmly convinced that his attributes outweigh his flaws significantly.

You know damn well what he has achieved in the game as a manager in a long career which has some failures but lots of success. I don't need to spell it out for you - but you've backed yourself into a corner and can't stop arguing.

And I dont. I'll leave it at that because its pointless talking to MON fanboys, it always is.

Headshot

Im happy to see Trap gone but im disappointed to see him not manger of Ireland for the last 2 games. He deserves a standing ovation in the last game for all he has done

Lennonist

Dempsey wrote: »

And I dont. I'll leave it at that because its pointless talking to MON fanboys, it always is.

I'm no fanboy, as I said he has flaws like all managers do, but his attributes outweigh his flaws significantly.

If he gets the job and I hope he does, we'll find out just who is right and who is wrong in this particular argument a chara.

Paully D

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If MON does get the job he will have my 1000% support.

But I will be honest I wont be expecting much from him.

If anything.

If he does get it I can see us doing well at the start. People will cream themselves, but give it another year and things will be different. Thats just a prediction.

I never usually have such a reaction to managerial appointments and can often find some positives no matter who the appointment is, but if that utter clown gets the Ireland job then I am done for the duration of his reign.

Cue the "we don't need fans like you" posts and in fairness they're probably right, but I just can get behind someone I despise as much as him.

It would be a crying shame to see that sponger getting paid a fortune when he won't be putting anywhere near enough effort it. He'll turn up for games and the odd training session (if we're lucky) and that will be as far as it goes.

Paully D

Lennonist wrote: »

I'm no fanboy, as I said he has flaws like all managers do, but his attributes outweigh his flaws significantly.

If he gets the job and I hope he does, we'll find out just who is right and who is wrong in this particular argument a chara.

I can predict exactly how it will go.

Very good start as we get a few results we don't expect, not long later teams will find out how to play against him and the players will start retreating further and further in games, looking like a shadow of their former selves until they're barely able to cross the halfway line.

O'Neill will lose interest after a few defeats when he can't (or isn't able to) come up with a different approach and the fans discontent will start to grow with each passing poor result before he is eventually sacked and we're back to square one and light years behind similar nations due to no reasonable amount of youth being introduced and Stone Age tactics the order of the day.

The man is over 60 years of age and has been playing the same style of football as manager for about 30. He won't change and we know what we're going to get. He's basically a lesser version of Trappatoni with springs in his shoes.

A disgusting appointment if it happens.

Lennonist

Paully D wrote: »

I can predict exactly how it will go.

Very good start as we get a few results we don't expect, not long later teams will find out how to play against him and the players will start retreating further and further in games, looking like a shadow of their former selves until they're barely able to cross the halfway line.

O'Neill will lose interest after a few defeats when he can't (or isn't able to) come up with a different approach and the fans discontent will start to grow with each passing poor result before he is eventually sacked and we're back to square one and light years behind similar nations due to no reasonable amount of youth being introduced and Stone Age tactics the order of the day.

The man is over 60 years of age and has been playing the same style of football as manager for about 30. He won't change and we know what we're going to get. He's basically a lesser version of Trappatoni with springs in his shoes.

A disgusting appointment if it happens.

An embarrassing post.

I'm not going to comment on it other than to say if he gets the job, he'll be a huge success.

The_Kew_Tour

Lennonist wrote: »

An embarrassing post.

I'm not going to comment on it other than to say if he gets the job, he'll be a huge success.

why?

Lennonist

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

why?

Because he'll instil them with confidence and get them to punch above their weight. That will bring success in terms of qualification for Euro 2016, because the players are good enough to qualify, and also when/if they get there they will fear no-one when they take the field.

The_Kew_Tour

Lennonist wrote: »

Because he'll instil them with confidence and get them to punch above their weight. That will bring success in terms of qualification for Euro 2016, because the players are good enough to qualify, and also when/if they get there they will fear no-one when they take the field.

Easier said then done.

The problem or question mark I have over him is if he is tactically going to be pretty much the same as Trap. From past experience it looks that way.

Wilberto

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Easier said then done.

The problem or question mark I have over him is if he is tactically going to be pretty much the same as Trap. From past experience it looks that way.

And just to back up your point....how many times has he bought Heskey??!!
Big man up front and lump it up to him.

Personally, once the guys at the FAI actually earn their largely exorbitant salaries and carry out extensive research on managers, draw up a shortlist, and select the most appropriate one, then I'll be happy. I have no doubt there are managers out there who we have never heard of (or just haven't thought of) that would do a sterling job.

Chucky the tree

Lennonist wrote: »

Because he'll instil them with confidence and get them to punch above their weight. That will bring success in terms of qualification for Euro 2016, because the players are good enough to qualify, and also when/if they get there they will fear no-one when they take the field.

If he's so good at instilling confidence and having his players fear no one then why did Villa consistently bottle it?

KingdomYid

Wilberto wrote: »

And just to back up your point....how many times has he bought Heskey??!!

Did he not just buy him once? correct me if i am wrong.

Wilberto

KingdomYid wrote: »

Did he not just buy him once? correct me if i am wrong.

Possibly, but had him twice though. Whether or not he was the manager to bring him to Leicester City is up for debate.


My original point still stands though. The fact that Heskey played a "major" part in both his Leicester and Villa teams (especially Leicester) says a lot about his management style.

WilyCoyote

MON's day is done. A great manager years ago but now lacks any new initiatives. His OTT celebrations on the sidelines are cringeworthy and come across as practiced and not spontaneous. All adds up to why no big team went for him recently.

kryogen

Lennonist wrote: »

An embarrassing post.

I'm not going to comment on it other than to say if he gets the job, he'll be a huge success.

Na

weldoninhio

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If he's so good at instilling confidence and having his players fear no one then why did Villa consistently bottle it?

By bottle it do you mean consistently finish 6th in the Premiership? How have they done since he left and they stopped "bottling" it??

weldoninhio

Wilberto wrote: »

Possibly, but had him twice though. Whether or not he was the manager to bring him to Leicester City is up for debate.


My original point still stands though. The fact that Heskey played a "major" part in both his Leicester and Villa teams (especially Leicester) says a lot about his management style.

Oh my god!! What a ridiculous comeback. He bought him once. So you backtrack to say he had him twice. Jesus wept. So you are categorizing O'Neills management style with Howard Wilkinson, Kevin Keegan, Sven Goran-Eriksson, Steve McClaren and Fabio Capello?? Since they all played Heskey consistently for England??

Your bias is so transparent it is laughable.

Corholio

weldoninhio wrote: »

By bottle it do you mean consistently finish 6th in the Premiership? How have they done since he left and they stopped "bottling" it??

It's funny, you saying 'since he left' should mean we've done worse because he left, which is true, but not in the way you think. Landing the club, along with Lerner, with overpaid, average, mostly British players with 90% of them sold at a loss. The club has suffered since because of it.

The talking and enthusiasm part of the job he'll be no doubt successful in, the actual football part I have a lot of doubts about that. Like any other manager he should get peoples support regardless though.

SuperInfinity

For Ireland to qualify, Austria would have to beat Sweden, then Germany would have to beat Sweden then Faroe Islands would have to beat Austria... all must. Then Ireland would have to beat Germany away and beat Kazhakstan by about 10 goals plus or minus one or two depending on the other results (if we beat Germany 3-0, and Faroe Islands beat Austria 3-0, then we'd only have to beat Kazhakstan 4-0).

The_Kew_Tour

SuperInfinity wrote: »

For Ireland to qualify, Austria would have to beat Sweden, then Germany would have to beat Sweden then Faroe Islands would have to beat Austria... all must. Then Ireland would have to beat Germany away and beat Kazhakstan by about 10 goals plus or minus one or two depending on the other results (if we beat Germany 3-0, and Faroe Islands beat Austria 3-0, then we'd only have to beat Kazhakstan 4-0).

Yes I think it's fair to say we are out.

Lennonist

SuperInfinity wrote: »

For Ireland to qualify, Austria would have to beat Sweden, then Germany would have to beat Sweden then Faroe Islands would have to beat Austria... all must. Then Ireland would have to beat Germany away and beat Kazhakstan by about 10 goals plus or minus one or two depending on the other results (if we beat Germany 3-0, and Faroe Islands beat Austria 3-0, then we'd only have to beat Kazhakstan 4-0).

Even if all that happens I don't think Ireland will finish in the top 8 of 2nd placed sides and would still miss out on a play off. Should really have sacked Trap after the German defeat in order to have a chance in this campaign.

roanoke

Lennonist wrote: »

Even if all that happens I don't think Ireland will finish in the top 8 of 2nd placed sides and would still miss out on a play off. Should really have sacked Trap after the German defeat in order to have a chance in this campaign.

It's all ifs and buts now but I still wonder how long Trap would have lasted had we lost that game in Kazakhstan? Overall that game was one of the most incompetent and depressing performances I've ever seen from an Irish team (even worse than the 1-6 to Germany imho) and should have been a clear indication of what we had to look forward to in the next 12 months.

Still, you can't argue with results. We somehow won the game and the Trap train drove on for another year. Sigh.