Wanted: National Rules for Electrical Installations (4th Edition)

tomdempsey200

ok.. apologies to 2011 and yourself
i lost track of the thread there

the cert has been rejected? I better not ask what that's about about...

bertie 56

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

the cert has been rejected? I better not ask what that's about about...

The cert has been rejected because I didn't have enough sockets / lights... in the house. The electrician did put only few sockets , as a temporary supply. It was properly done by himself , in a fuse box with RCD's / MCB's .The target was to get rid of this f..ing generator !
Didn't work...:(

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

The cert has been rejected because I didn't have enough sockets / lights... in the house. The electrician did put only few sockets , as a temporary supply. It was properly done by himself , in a fuse box with RCD's / MCB's .The target was to get rid of this f..ing generator !
Didn't work...:(

A cert would not be rejected for that reason.

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

A cert would not be rejected for that reason.

It was ! It's hand-written on it !
No kidding...

see my post at the time here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057032606

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

It was ! It's hand-written on it !
No kidding...

see my post at the time here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057032606

That thread is a train wreck, there must be some issue with this cert that it got rejected, i.e contractors insurance expired, incomplete, wrong mrpn could be anything.

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

That thread is a train wreck, there must be some issue with this cert that it got rejected, i.e contractors insurance expired, incomplete, wrong mrpn could be anything.

None of this.
If you still don't believe, I can scan the cert and post it here , no problem.

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

None of this.
If you still don't believe, I can scan the cert and post it here , no problem.

Which cert the one last year or this new one?

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

Which cert the one last year or this new one?

I had only one cert done.
As said in posts 32 and 35 : " the electrician did put a fuse box, couple of RCD's and MCB's, few sockets and send the cert , hoping to have a temporary supply for me in the house.
The cert has been rejected"

tomdempsey200

bertie 56 wrote: »

I had only one cert done.
As said in posts 32 and 35 : " the electrician did put a fuse box, couple of RCD's and MCB's, few sockets and send the cert , hoping to have a temporary supply for me in the house.
The cert has been rejected"

temp supplies at the installation were done away with around 08

unless they're back again

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

The cert has been rejected"

Did they post or email the cert back to you?

2011

Just for clarity I did a quick check this am, here is what I found:

National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008)
Annex 55A (Informative) "Final Circuit Arrangements" (page 307)
Section 4.2 "Radial final circuits for socket-outlets and appliances in domestic and similar installations"

"Recommended maximum number of points: 10 (see definition of "point"). One point may serve a single or double socket-outlet."

Most/all electrical apprentices and electricians would consider this to be pretty fundament. I would be concerned if an electrical contractor wiring my home was not familiar with basics of ET101. I suspect that there may be more to your completion certificate being rejected than you are aware of. If it were me I would demand that the ECSSA or RECI give a reason for the rejection of this certificate in writing and resolve same immediately. The ECSSA and RECI need to accept some responsibility for their members who after all are the only people legally permitted to wire a domestic installation.

As tomdempsey200 has suggested there can be many good reasons to have far less than 10 sockets on a radial circuit. In some cases one may make sense. A good design should achieve a balance between the number of circuits and cost.

bertie 56

2011 wrote: »

Just for clarity I did a quick check this am, here is what I found:

National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008)
Annex 55A (Informative) "Final Circuit Arrangements" (page 307)
Section 4.2 "Radial final circuits for socket-outlets and appliances in domestic and similar installations"

"Recommended maximum number of points: 10 (see definition of "point"). One point may serve a single or double socket-outlet."

Most/all electrical apprentices and electricians would consider this to be pretty fundament. I would be concerned if an electrical contractor wiring my home was not familiar with basics of ET101. I suspect that there may be more to your completion certificate being rejected than you are aware of. If it were me I would demand that the ECSSA or RECI give a reason for the rejection of this certificate in writing and resolve same immediately. The ECSSA and RECI need to accept some responsibility for their members who after all are the only people legally permitted to wire a domestic installation.

As tomdempsey200 has suggested there can be many good reasons to have far less than 10 sockets on a radial circuit. In some cases one may make sense. A good design should achieve a balance between the number of circuits and cost.

Thanks, 2011, that's very clear. I did got this information as well from the ETCI web-site, in the FAQ section. Since I don't know if this web-page is up-to-date with the 2008 Rules ( neither with the 2011 amendments) , it is good that you've precise it, straight from the book. Thanks for this.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my explanations , so here is a resume :

- Nov 2013 : In my new-build house, a registered electrician fit a fuse box, few RCD's , few breakers and connect few sockets in the house. Earthing is done as well.
The pole is in place, ESB has the cables in the pole, waiting for connection. The outside ESB box is in place, with hockey stick and all.A big armored cable goes out from the fuse box, waiting for connection in the ESB box.
Everything is ready, he send the cert and we got it back refused, with the reason that installation is not complete.

I kept working with the generator then.

- March 2014 : the house is more or less ready for wiring, I'll prepare the house wiring plan ( where goes the sockets , lights, washing machine and all ). I'll concentrate in all rooms except kitchen, since the part of the house where the kitchen goes is not ready yet. In order to understand a bit how this works, and to prepare the wiring, I show briefly the plans to the electrician, and ask him few general questions , like how many sockets can you put in one same line.
It's a timber frame house. I will have to fit the pipes of the Heat Recovery System, the plumber pipes, etc, and don't want to have to many big holes in the structural ceiling joists. There is as well the membrane , the fewer holes in it, the better.
That's why I was asking him these questions, to see where we are going.
And as well because I'm interested to know more about this.

I don't intend to do all the electric work on my own. I don't have the experience for this, and even if I can learn how to do it, I won't be confident enough to do it.
And anyway, I don't have the choice, the Cert has to be sign by a registered guy.

Hope that ( long ) thread will clarify my case

2011

Ok, that is making a bit more sense.

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

Everything is ready, he send the cert and we got it back refused, with the reason that installation is not complete.

That reason is nonsensical, there is some other reason that the electrician is not telling you about, he is being economical with the truth on some matter.

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

Did they post or email the cert back to you?

Hi there,

They send the paper to my electrician, who brought it to me, along with the copy of the cert he send.

It is the electrician that explain me that they refused the cert because I don't have enough sockets( and no lights and no fixed appliance outlets).
I kind of trust him on this one, Reci has only these informations to make their mind :

- MPRN number
- My name
- Type of premise ( house )
- date of installation
- Type of installation ( new)
- number of lights / sockets/ fixed appliance outlets
- resistance of protective conductor
- insulation resistance
-name / address/ signature/ certification no of the electrician.

Nobody came on-site .


Here is the refusal from RECI :

frankmul

I think reci and essca we're trying to clamp down on people sending in Certs to get supply to a house during construction, a temp supply without putting up a cabinet away from the house. Some of these houses were never getting certified afterwards. Why bother when you have a supply already.

2011

bertie 56 wrote: »

It is the electrician that explain me that they refused the cert because I don't have enough sockets( and no lights and no fixed appliance outlets).

No lights or fixed appliances, well it is called a completion certificate!
No wonder, this does not sound very complete :cool:

I kind of trust him on this one

You "kind of trust" him? :eek:
The same electrician that told you that a maximum of 3 sockets are permitted on a radial?

tomdempsey200

frankmul wrote: »

I think reci and essca we're trying to clamp down on people sending in Certs to get supply to a house during construction, a temp supply without putting up a cabinet away from the house. Some of these houses were never getting certified afterwards. Why bother when you have a supply already.

that's all it is..

house with no lights= cert refused


if the electrician had put in the full number of lights and sockets he would have got supply

however he'd be leaving himself open to reci issues and insurance claims on the temporary if there was an accident etc.

frankmul

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

that's all it is..



if the electrician had put in the full number of lights and sockets he would have got supply

however he'd be leaving himself open to reci issues and insurance claims on the temporary if there was an accident etc.

Might be fun trying to explain that cert to an inspector

2011

frankmul wrote: »

Might be fun trying to explain that cert to an inspector

You would be surprised!
Inspectors are generally very reluctant to take any meaningful action.

bertie 56

" I think reci and essca we're trying to clamp down on people sending in Certs to get supply to a house during construction, a temp supply without putting up a cabinet away from the house. Some of these houses were never getting certified afterwards. Why bother when you have a supply already."

Yes, you are right there, and they say it themselves :

" From 1st January 2008 ESB Networks will no longer provide a temporary supply to the meter box in individual domestic houses. In some cases the wiring in the house is completed by a non registered contractor and no final completion certificate is issued. This practice is unsafe and unfair to registered contractors

It's a way to protect their business... :rolleyes:

I'm a little bit p..ssed off, though. We did all this installation ( wasn't free ), did the Cert ( wasn't free neither , and wasn't cheap ! ) for nothing.
This rule is on for the last 5 years, and my electrician just discovered it !

2011 wrote: »

You "kind of trust" him?
The same electrician that told you that a maximum of 3 sockets are permitted on a radial?

As said, I kind of trust him on this one : ie I believe his explanations about why I got refused. I have doubts for other things, though !



" house with no lights= cert refused "
Now let say that I'm a minimalistic hippie with a 200sq ft house with 2 rooms . It is possible, nobody knows, it's not written on the cert.
Do I need more than 6 sockets in this house ?
I plug two desk lights in 2 sockets, and I have light.
Since there is no texts of law precising a minimum of sockets or lights in a house, how can someone judge that the installation is not complete ?
I could be happy with only 6 sockets, why not ?
How all this would do in front of a Court ? :rolleyes:
All this is pure fictional, but it can happen. Not everybody needs 38 lights and 95 sockets in a house !


During this time, I break my b..lls with the geny, putting it and putting out every day,going out to start it when needed and going out again to stop it when finished, 20/30 times a day, burning petrol and polluting, annoying neighbours with the noise, etc... What a drag !!!
That's RECI solution for replacing the temporary supply :
"
The customer/contractor can hire a generator until a completion certificate for the completed electrical installation can be submitted and the connection provided at the permanent metering position.

Would be nice to see all these " office deciders " doing this for one day . We'll see then how they feel...:mad:

frankmul

Or you can get a temporary commercial supply. Totally separate from your house but capable of supplying power to get your building complete.
http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/downloads/national_code_of_practice.pdf
Page 45 and appendix c

tomdempsey200

i did it plenty of times

send in cert early and stick up temp board on tails at distribution board location

2011

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'm a little bit p..ssed off, though. We did all this installation ( wasn't free ), did the Cert ( wasn't free neither , and wasn't cheap ! ) for nothing.

What do you mean "for nothing"?
The house would have to be wired one way or the other.
When it is completed a completion certificate can be issued and then you get connected.

" house with no lights= cert refused "
Now let say that I'm a minimalistic hippie with a 200sq ft house with 2 rooms . It is possible, nobody knows, it's not written on the cert.

I would think that if you provided some supporting documentation this would not be a problem. However there would have to be some fixed appliances as there are regulations stating smoke detectors are now required.

Do I need more than 6 sockets in this house ?

I would argue that you do. Installing that few is likely to lead to overloaded sockets, extension leads being used on a permanent basis and multiple socket adapters/plug boards. All of which increases the likelihood of accidents.

I plug two desk lights in 2 sockets, and I have light.
Since there is no texts of law precising a minimum of sockets or lights in a house, how can someone judge that the installation is not complete ?

It is very clear to me that your installation is far from complete.

During this time, I break my b..lls with the geny, putting it and putting out every day,going out to start it when needed and going out again to stop it when finished, 20/30 times a day, burning petrol and polluting, annoying neighbours with the noise, etc... What a drag !!!

I know it is a pain but you should just get it finished.

bertie 56

frankmul wrote: »

Or you can get a temporary commercial supply. Totally separate from your house but capable of supplying power to get your building complete.
http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/downloads/national_code_of_practice.pdf
Page 45 and appendix c

Thanks for the input. I did ask ESB for this. It was around 3000 € to do it, on top of the normal fee I paid already . It is not a solution for me.

2011 wrote: »

What do you mean "for nothing"?
The house would have to be wired one way or the other.
When it is completed a completion certificate can be issued and then you get connected.

You are partially right. Yes, it's not fully " for nothing " : the fuse box won't move and the main armored cable neither. But the sockets are not in their definitive place, so it has to be wired all again ( but not a big job, it's true )

2011 wrote: »

there are regulations stating smoke detectors are now required.

Good to know, thanks ! Are the battery ones allowed, or it has to be powered by the main ?

2011 wrote: »

Installing that few is likely to lead to overloaded sockets, extension leads being used on a permanent basis and multiple socket adapters/plug boards. All of which increases the likelihood of accidents.

Of course, you have to be aware of that. But in a 200 sq ft house ( 18 m2 ), you won't be putting much stuff anyway... 2000 W of heating and you are boiling !

2011 wrote: »

It is very clear to me that your installation is far from complete.

Yes, as said, the hippie's minimalistic house story was fictional

2011 wrote: »

I know it is a pain but you should just get it finished.

My girlfriend says the same ! But I'm working at it ...

cast_iron

bertie 56 wrote: »

" From 1st January 2008 ESB Networks will no longer provide a temporary supply to the meter box in individual domestic houses. In some cases the wiring in the house is completed by a non registered contractor and no final completion certificate is issued. This practice is unsafe and unfair to registered contractors

It's a way to protect their business... :rolleyes:

It's a way to protect legitimate contractors against people flouting the rules and not completing the job properly once they have a temp supply. It was getting out of hand and something had to be done.

It is a bit difficult on people who let the build drag on for whatever reason, but there's not much that can be done about that.

In the case of the hippie house, you could probably go back and argue the case that it was complete. Though desk lamps don't really count as lights to anyone.
Electric smoke detectors are a requirement - as I'm sure your electrician has told you already!

In 99.9% of cases, the cert your electrician sent in would clearly indicate the job isn't finished. It's almost impossible to write rules that will cover 100% of cases, and there will be some people caught up in the very small minority.

Good luck with the rest of the build.

Sir Arthur Daley

bertie 56 wrote: »

Here is the refusal from RECI :

Have you the original cert to show?

bertie 56

WikiHow wrote: »

Have you the original cert to show?

Give me 5 min , I'll post it

bertie 56

bertie 56 wrote: »

Give me 5 min , I'll post it

Here it is :

deandean

Getting back to Mr Fudd's original request for a copy of The Rules so he could look stuff up for himself: I bought a copy of the Rules in about 2000 for the same reason. I did a fair bit of the preliminaries myself such as taking up floorboards, chasing walls, etc.

I was very disappointed with the content of the Rules in that it gave almost no information that was useful to me. For example: height of a socket outlet; height of a light switch, etc; location of earth rod, etc.

A lot of the info that's really useful seems to be picked up during an electrician's apprenticeship and/or from periodicals from RECI/ECSSA etc.

So Mr Fudd, I reckon don't expect much from a copy of ET:101 in terms of practical guidelines.