Shops charging minimum charge for debit or credit cards

keithclancy

Maestro in the Netherlands is encouraged for small transactions

A few of the checkouts in supermarkets are card only

Bepolite

Your gripe is with the bank not the retailer. Irish banks are stuck in 1980 with poor customer service for even then. Contactless swipe should have been rolled out years ago so you don't get some disorganised customer in front of you holding up the entire queue for a €3.50 coffee.

Frankly I'd be taking my business somewhere else if I had to wait 40 minutes for a coffee while everyone messed about paying by card. Vote with your feet though, you want long queues and the transaction fee built into the price (Starbucks) I want a nice quick coffee and carry around ancient coinage.

I'm sorry to be flippant but it seems that when the whether changes customer start narky, which has been my experience for much of this week. On the flip side the wife has won €100 (2 x €50) in the Visa competition in the last two weeks so I can see why'd you be trying to use the card as much as possible. :pac:

MagicMarker

Bepolite wrote: »

Frankly I'd be taking my business somewhere else if I had to wait 40 minutes for a coffee while everyone messed about paying by card. Vote with your feet though, you want long queues and the transaction fee built into the price (Starbucks) I want a nice quick coffee and carry around ancient coinage:

Sounds like you just go places that have shíte service. 40 mins? Really?

And do you really think Starbucks has long queues because they don't have a min charge for card users? Or do you think that maybe it could have something to do with them being the most popular coffee outlet on the planet?

Personally, it makes no difference to me if someone in front of me pays with a card, it only takes a couple of extra seconds ffs.

Bepolite

MagicMarker wrote: »

Sounds like you just go places that have shíte service. 40 mins? Really?

And do you really think Starbucks has long queues because they don't have a min charge for card users? Or do you think that maybe it could have something to do with them being the most popular coffee outlet on the planet?

Personally, it makes no difference to me if someone in front of me pays with a card, it only takes a couple of extra seconds ffs.

A card payment can take up to 60 seconds, the queue in Starbucks CHQ could easily have 30 people in it. Coffee to Go on Baggot Street can have 25 - 30 people in their queue at peak times. (Thats with 75% of customers paying cash) CHQs foot fall (the area no the Starbucks) would be measured in the hundreds at peak.

PDQs require a phone line, if multiple PDQs are working in a small outlet like C2G they're going to have to wait for each other, fair enough Starbucks can run them over their network and don't have the same issue but still have to wait for the merchant to respond. It was pretty obvious from my post I was presenting the scenario of everyone paying with card without a rapid payment system like they have in France, my apologies for not making this more obvious.

Also Starbucks don't have long queues because they don't need to apply a min charge as there model is completely different. They also don't have long queues because a footfall and payment type analysis will take place, the majority of people pay in cash thankfully.

tricky D

People might also be forgetting that with these Automated transactions the bank don't just charge the retailer but also the customer (you) at a typical rate of €0.20-0.29, never mind the other fixed fees: Maintenance, Govt Duty... So that's a significant overhead for transactions of the order being talked about here ie. your €2.50 coffee costs the retailer €0.37 and you at least €0.20 (omitting the fixed fees). That's well over 20% the ******* banks are taking. Cash is king still applies imho, though free banking is nice if you have it:).

OldNotWIse

If a shop doesn't want to accept payments below a certain amount, why do they bother having a visa/credit card machine? It's like telling you they've no change when you hand them a fifty. I will always walk out of somewhere that demands I buy stuff for the sake of it, same with places that charge extra for topups.

OldNotWIse

MagicMarker wrote: »

Sounds like you just go places that have shíte service. 40 mins? Really?

And do you really think Starbucks has long queues because they don't have a min charge for card users? Or do you think that maybe it could have something to do with them being the most popular coffee outlet on the planet?

Personally, it makes no difference to me if someone in front of me pays with a card, it only takes a couple of extra seconds ffs.

40 minutes for a starbucks...seems the poster is frequenting a cafe stuck in a 2007 time warp

fricatus

longhalloween wrote: »

But if we're to move to a cashless society then something will have to be changed.

Why would we want to move to a cashless society? Common sense should prevail - cash for small purchases, cards for larger ones.

I hate it when we get this guff from the banks about Irish people being "addicted" to carrying around loads of cash, like we're a bunch of superstitious Luddites. They just don't want to handle cash because it's a cost to them, and the media just swallow their argument, hook, line and sinker, without making the opposing case.

Other countries use far more cash than we do, and not just "backward" ones. Japan is a case in point. They're using the Pasmo and Suica cards for limited small purchases (these are public transport cards like the Oyster in London), so there's no going through the bank, or Visa. Even so, cash is still king.

FFS, how hard is it to get into the habit of taking out say €150 at the ATM and then just visiting one again once you're down to about €30?

Del2005

foggy_lad wrote: »

If shops and business don't like paying a small amount to get us in the door they should just close the doors.

If shops are making a loss on the sales they will close there doors. The only way they can avoid surcharges is to build it into the price that everyone pays, or we could get our leaders to force the banks we own to offer competitive prices.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

If a shop doesn't want to accept payments below a certain amount, why do they bother having a visa/credit card machine? It's like telling you they've no change when you hand them a fifty.

They have payment machines to take payment for items. The banks have decided that small businesses, and consumers with our transaction charges, have to carry the can for their failed loan books by charging a high % charge for transactions. So while it's not to big a deal on a €20 purchase on a <€5 this eats to much into their margin.

Same with tills, most have less than a €100 float. If 2 costumers before you buy items with €50s then there will be no change left in the till. That can be blamed on the insurance companies and scumbag robbers.

hardCopy

fricatus wrote: »

Why would we want to move to a cashless society? Common sense should prevail - cash for small purchases, cards for larger ones.

I hate it when we get this guff from the banks about Irish people being "addicted" to carrying around loads of cash, like we're a bunch of superstitious Luddites. They just don't want to handle cash because it's a cost to them, and the media just swallow their argument, hook, line and sinker, without making the opposing case.

Other countries use far more cash than we do, and not just "backward" ones. Japan is a case in point. They're using the Pasmo and Suica cards for limited small purchases (these are public transport cards like the Oyster in London), so there's no going through the bank, or Visa. Even so, cash is still king.

FFS, how hard is it to get into the habit of taking out say €150 at the ATM and then just visiting one again once you're down to about €30?

Cash is a massive cost to everyone who handles it. The retailer has to count and sort the cash before they can lodge it this can take up to an hour in a moderately busy convenience store, they may also need equipment to do this. Their insurer will only cover limited amounts of cash in approved, expensive safes. They may have to pay for CIT pickups if they've got any kind of decent turnover. Most retailers will take in more paper money than coin, so they have to buy coin from the bank, if they take in excess coin they have to count, sort and bag it before deposit, and still they pay a coin deposit charge.

CIT will then transport, count and process the cash before it goes to the bank. Their fees to the retailer have to cover trucks, staff, insurance, fuel, rent etc.

Till shortages are another cost that disappears in a cashless environment.

Cash customers are not subsidising card users.

Yes, Irish people are addicted to cash, we are Europe's biggest users of cash and probably the world's biggest users of coin.

foggy_lad

OldNotWIse wrote: »

40 minutes for a starbucks...seems the poster is frequenting a cafe stuck in a 2007 time warp

Ya have to wait for the kettle to boil..... then take the lid off the tin of Maxwell house... it does take time:D

irishgeo

Its against both visa and Mastercard cardscheme rules to have a min transaction amount. Report them and they will soon stop or risk losing their merchant numbers.

Del2005

irishgeo wrote: »

Its against both visa and Mastercard cardscheme rules to have a min transaction amount. Report them and they will soon stop or risk losing their merchant numbers.

If they don't charge minimum transactions then they'll close down, reporting will just speed up the closure.

And it's easy for Visa and Mastercard to say no minimum fees when they are screwing the retailer with the fees they are charging, if they gave cheaper rates to the businesses for low cost charges then they wouldn't have to have a minimum transaction charge.

jester77

That sounds ridiculous. These costs are a typical part of doing a business and should never be passed on to the customer like this. When water meters are brought in are these places going to charge customers for using their toilet facilities? I thought there was some sort of a recession in Ireland, surely these places should me more than happy to get a customers money.

OldNotWIse

Del2005 wrote: »

If shops are making a loss on the sales they will close there doors. The only way they can avoid surcharges is to build it into the price that everyone pays, or we could get our leaders to force the banks we own to offer competitive prices.



They have payment machines to take payment for items. The banks have decided that small businesses, and consumers with our transaction charges, have to carry the can for their failed loan books by charging a high % charge for transactions. So while it's not to big a deal on a €20 purchase on a <€5 this eats to much into their margin.

Same with tills, most have less than a €100 float. If 2 costumers before you buy items with €50s then there will be no change left in the till. That can be blamed on the insurance companies and scumbag robbers.

Hang on, and excuse my ignorance (I reserve the right to be be wrong ) but if it's a % then why does it matter what the amount is? The smaller the transaction the less they will pay?

ScouseMouse

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Hang on, and excuse my ignorance (I reserve the right to be be wrong ) but if it's a % then why does it matter what the amount is? The smaller the transaction the less they will pay?

A percentage with a minimum fee of xxx

Plus, when it gets batched to the bank, its classed as a transaction which attracts another fee

OldNotWIse

foggy_lad wrote: »

Ya have to wait for the kettle to boil..... then take the lid off the tin of Maxwell house... it does take time:D

Let's not forget about the mandatory b*stardisation of the coffee with cream, caramel, sugar, crushed ice, poppy seeds, lemon treacle fish gut sh1te etc :P

Those things are so far removed from the original substance..they could market them as homeopathic

ScouseMouse

irishgeo wrote: »

Its against both visa and Mastercard cardscheme rules to have a min transaction amount. Report them and they will soon stop or risk losing their merchant numbers.

But then the shop is within its rights not to serve you. So this issue will not occur.

OldNotWIse

superscouse wrote: »

A percentage with a minimum fee of xxx

Plus, when it gets batched to the bank, its classed as a transaction which attracts another fee

ah...nods wisely....strokes imaginary beard...

rubadub

jester77 wrote: »

When water meters are brought in are these places going to charge customers for using their toilet facilities?

Stephens green shopping centre already charge for this. Water charges are already in for some businesses (maybe all). I know where I work we pay a fortune for water each year, and it is of course factored into the prices, some products require more than others so go up more. I am pretty sure in other threads people were moaning about being charged for tap water to drink in restaurants.

If flushing a toilet was costing 37 cent (like the fees on the 2.50 cup in question) then yes, they might well start charging, rather than having the non-cash payers being upset with the rise in prices to cover this. Toilet charges are less likely due to the embarrassment factor, so the people with good bladders usually just have to subsidise the rest.

People are going on like there is no loser in this, if 50% pay by CC then the cups all have to go from 2.50 to about 2.70. This is enough to make people go elsewhere, I no longer go to a chipper near me since chips went up exactly that, 2.50 to 2.70, the alternative chipper is 2.40 with bigger & better chips, the location of the other was the only occasional advantage.
Just imagine the min CC charge was €2 and it might all become more obvious why its done.

jester77 wrote: »

surely these places should me more than happy to get a customers money.

Yes, and they don't want to lose cash paying customers in the process. I would guess they have weighed up the pros & cons.

TommiesTank

Will they charge based on number 1 vs number 2?

Guy:Incognito

foggy_lad wrote: »

If shops and business don't like paying a small amount to get us in the door they should just close the doors.

How many "small amounts" should they pay on top of their large amounts like rent, rates, staff costs, bills etc just to get you in the door to buy a coffee? Eventually they add up to costing the shop money to serve you or you going elsewhere because those "rip off bastards" are charging too much for the coffee and they've lost you anyway.

ScottSF

I think it is unreasonable to be paying a min charge when monies are so tight.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it is crazy to ask a coffee shop to charge €2.50 to your credit card. Withdrawing money from your own ATM is free, so why make us all pay more for your convenience?

You are enriching Visa and MasterCard corporation plus your bank. Is that really best for the Irish economy?

Wouldn't you rather have the money go to your local coffee shop so they can hire more employees and just stay in business? If it costs what some have listed above, 20c or 30c or more to take your card, there goes the profit. Remember rents are still high and labor costs are high, so either they raise the price for a cup of coffee (bad for everyone) or they cut back on staff (bad for the economy).

On a related note, in some countries gas/petrol stations offer a discount for paying cash instead of credit. Maybe that is a solution?

dudara

ScottSF wrote: »

Withdrawing money from your own ATM is free

Actually, with my bank, it is not free to withdraw cash from an ATM.

Personally, I rarely carry cash. I've grown accustomed to paying for practically everything by card. There's also the benefit of having every expense itemised on my statements too, which is great for tracking costs, and helping me reclaim travel expenses.

Cash can be a downright nuisance at times TBH. Trying to find an ATM, then having it spit out only €50 notes, which you then feel embarassed about sometimes as smaller shops/taxis may not have the float to break the €50. For those of you who say cash is quicker, think about the times you're caught behind someone counting out coins.

It's a personal thing ultimately, but no matter what, shops and consumers should be encouraged by the use of free/low-cost transactions to encourage more card usage.

Bepolite

dudara wrote: »

For those of you who say cash is quicker, think about the times you're caught behind someone counting out coins.

It's a personal thing ultimately, but no matter what, shops and consumers should be encouraged by the use of free/low-cost transactions to encourage more card usage.

Coins probably happens one in a blue moon, certainly less times than someone having to fiddle with a PDQ machine because it's run out of paper/lost connection. While I agree with the final part of your post, this isn't going to happen until contactless and paperless payments are adopted, and this assumes the banks will reduce the charges to the retailers. Don't get me started on the customer charges, these are outrageous IMHO.

MagicMarker

Bepolite wrote: »

Coins probably happens one in a blue moon, certainly less times than someone having to fiddle with a PDQ machine because it's run out of paper/lost connection. While I agree with the final part of your post, this isn't going to happen until contactless and paperless payments are adopted, and this assumes the banks will reduce the charges to the retailers. Don't get me started on the customer charges, these are outrageous IMHO.

You're saying coin country happens once in a blue moon, then you compare it to a CC machine loosing connection or paper, which ALSO happen once in a blue moon. Not to mention cash registers run out of paper also, or they run out of change completely, or they don't have enough notes to provide change and then you have to wait around for someone else to open a register to get change blah blah blah.

Using the time argument against the use of cards is simply clutching at straws. In my experience people using cards has negligible effect on time. It's just not an issue, no more than people using cash can be an issue.

RGDATA!

MagicMarker wrote: »

A coffee shop near me recently brought in a min charge for debit cards, so I stopped going there and instead go to another place 50 yards up the street. So because the shop wanted to save literally a couple of pennies on my purchase they've now lost all the profit from me, a former regular customer.

I hope the coffee and service are as good in the place you now go to, because otherwise you could also look at it that you've stopped going to a place you were happy with for the sake of carrying a few quid in cash around with you.

I get why you would be annoyed, but to be fair, the "couple of pennies" involved are often a huge chunk of small margins for retailers.

wmpdd3

The solution to this was supposed to be contact less transactions for free but of course the merchant account suppliers bottled it.

If contact less payments were free it might make some difference.

MagicMarker

RGDATA! wrote: »

I hope the coffee and service are as good in the place you now go to, because otherwise you could also look at it that you've stopped going to a place you were happy with for the sake of carrying a few quid in cash around with you.

I get why you would be annoyed, but to be fair, the "couple of pennies" involved are often a huge chunk of small margins for retailers.

And what's the profit margin on €0?

ScouseMouse

dudara wrote: »

Actually, with my bank, it is not free to withdraw cash from an ATM.

Personally, I rarely carry cash. I've grown accustomed to paying for practically everything by card. There's also the benefit of having every expense itemised on my statements too, which is great for tracking costs, and helping me reclaim travel expenses.

Cash can be a downright nuisance at times TBH. Trying to find an ATM, then having it spit out only €50 notes, which you then feel embarassed about sometimes as smaller shops/taxis may not have the float to break the €50. For those of you who say cash is quicker, think about the times you're caught behind someone counting out coins.

It's a personal thing ultimately, but no matter what, shops and consumers should be encouraged by the use of free/low-cost transactions to encourage more card usage.

This is very true, but until it becomes cost effective to take small transactions, it cannot be done - not by smaller retailers at least.

It comes back to the banks again.