Shops charging minimum charge for debit or credit cards

K-9

MagicMarker wrote: »

You're saying coin country happens once in a blue moon, then you compare it to a CC machine loosing connection or paper, which ALSO happen once in a blue moon. Not to mention cash registers run out of paper also, or they run out of change completely, or they don't have enough notes to provide change and then you have to wait around for someone else to open a register to get change blah blah blah.

Using the time argument against the use of cards is simply clutching at straws. In my experience people using cards has negligible effect on time. It's just not an issue, no more than people using cash can be an issue.

But you are waiting 30/40 seconds for a CC transaction to complete every time, the vast majority of cash transactions are a matter of handing over cash, getting change and the receipt and walking away.

As previously said, contact less transactions are the answer but I think only a few chains do them.

jester77

K-9 wrote: »

But you are waiting 30/40 seconds for a CC transaction to complete every time, the vast majority of cash transactions are a matter of handing over cash, getting change and the receipt and walking away.

As previously said, contact less transactions are the answer but I think only a few chains do them.

Ah now, that is a bit of an exaggeration. When the pizza guy comes to my place with his mobile device, it doesn't even take 10 seconds and that includes putting in the PIN.

Bepolite

MagicMarker wrote: »

You're saying coin country happens once in a blue moon, then you compare it to a CC machine loosing connection or paper, which ALSO happen once in a blue moon. Not to mention cash registers run out of paper also, or they run out of change completely, or they don't have enough notes to provide change and then you have to wait around for someone else to open a register to get change blah blah blah.

Using the time argument against the use of cards is simply clutching at straws. In my experience people using cards has negligible effect on time. It's just not an issue, no more than people using cash can be an issue.

Given my previous life involved analysing this sort of thing I'm afraid I'm going to just have to tell you you're wrong. When you look at the average transaction, especially where there isn't an integrated EPOS system (i.e. the PDQ is separate from the till) it's almost always faster for the cashier to do a cash transaction, not withstanding they have to make change - a quite significantly so. All you need to do is go and stand in a queue in Spar. Sorry you seem so hell bent on not seeing what's in front of your face - I can only assume you work for Visa/Mastercard :pac:

Putting the time issue aside, the costs for small independent merchants are probative, as has been pointed out numerous time on this thread. As I'm fond of saying vote with your feet. Go somewhere that doesn't have a min trans fee.

Bepolite

jester77 wrote: »

Ah now, that is a bit of an exaggeration. When the pizza guy comes to my place with his mobile device, it doesn't even take 10 seconds and that includes putting in the PIN.

Those mobile PDQs have rubbish thermal printers on. It takes longer than that for it to connect via the mobile network to auth the transaction and longer still to print. Again a contactless, post auth swipe like that have in most countries without a banking system in the 80s would be less than five seconds and quicker than cash.

MagicMarker

K-9 wrote: »

But you are waiting 30/40 seconds for a CC transaction to complete every time, the vast majority of cash transactions are a matter of handing over cash, getting change and the receipt and walking away.

As previously said, contact less transactions are the answer but I think only a few chains do them.

It takes about 10 seconds, i don't even wait around for a receipt.

MagicMarker

Bepolite wrote: »

Given my previous life involved analysing this sort of thing I'm afraid I'm going to just have to tell you you're wrong. When you look at the average transaction, especially where there isn't an integrated EPOS system (i.e. the PDQ is separate from the till) it's almost always faster for the cashier to do a cash transaction, not withstanding they have to make change - a quite significantly so. All you need to do is go and stand in a queue in Spar. Sorry you seem so hell bent on not seeing what's in front of your face - I can only assume you work for Visa/Mastercard :pac:

Putting the time issue aside, the costs for small independent merchants are probative, as has been pointed out numerous time on this thread. As I'm fond of saying vote with your feet. Go somewhere that doesn't have a min trans fee.

I never said using cash wasn't faster. I said that the difference in time is negligible to the point that it simply doesn't matter.

Bepolite

MagicMarker wrote: »

I never said using cash wasn't faster. I said that the difference in time is negligible to the point that it simply doesn't matter.

And I pointed out you were wrong. Even if you don't wait for the receipt it's still got to print. If the next person is using a card, the delay is still there. It will be there for you too if the previous customer has done the same as you.

fricatus

hardCopy wrote: »

Cash is a massive cost to everyone who handles it. The retailer has to count and sort the cash before they can lodge it this can take up to an hour in a moderately busy convenience store, they may also need equipment to do this. Their insurer will only cover limited amounts of cash in approved, expensive safes. They may have to pay for CIT pickups if they've got any kind of decent turnover. Most retailers will take in more paper money than coin, so they have to buy coin from the bank, if they take in excess coin they have to count, sort and bag it before deposit, and still they pay a coin deposit charge.

Fair enough, but there are plenty of costs associated with card payments too. Surely this coffee shop has done a few basic sums and found that on the whole, cash works better for them, at least for small payments? Otherwise I don't see why they would have a minimum charge.

Could cashflow be part of it? If you lodge cash at the bank towards the end of the day, it's in your account pretty much immediately. How long does the retailer have to wait for the card payments to be credited to their account? Somewhere turning over €2,000 a day mightn't exactly want to be out of pocket by €10k all the time because it takes 4-5 days to process payments.

hardCopy wrote: »

Cash customers are not subsidising card users.

In fairness you can't say that for every business. If all a retailer sells is packets of chewing gum for 75c and half of this is going to VISA or Mastercard, then they are - whereas in a shoe shop where every transaction is going to be €60 or more, then clearly it's the other way around.

MagicMarker wrote: »

And what's the profit margin on €0?

I think you're missing the point though. You've probably heard of the 80/20 rule, right? As in 80% of your profit comes from 20% of your customers, or something along those lines.

The top brass did just such an analysis in a company where I worked, and the decision was made to have the "low margin" customers serviced out of a "low cost" location. They gave out a lot about how they were going to take their business elsewhere. We were perfectly happy for them to do so (some did, some didn't), but either way the upshot was that we had even more time to look after the big, profitable accounts. It made our job so much easier not to have to mollycoddle timewasters.

Devils advocate here, but could you be just that sort of "low margin" customer?

K-9

MagicMarker wrote: »

It takes about 10 seconds, i don't even wait around for a receipt.

I like to keep receipts but I suppose if you're using it for €2/3 transactions, no need. The till/scanner still can't be used so no use to other people.

MagicMarker

Bepolite wrote: »

And I pointed out you were wrong. Even if you don't wait for the receipt it's still got to print. If the next person is using a card, the delay is still there. It will be there for you too if the previous customer has done the same as you.

How can you point out to me that I what I personally experience on a day to day basis is wrong?

Bepolite

MagicMarker wrote: »

How can you point out to me that I what I personally experience on a day to day basis is wrong?

Because you've a sample of X and I've a sample of 100 times X. Simple empirical method. Simply put - mines bigger :pac:

As this is exactly what this has degenerated into (a p!ssing contest), I wish you well and I'm glad you've found a better place to buy your coffee.

MagicMarker

Bepolite wrote: »

Because you've a sample of X and I've a sample of 100 times X. Simple empirical method. Simply put - mines bigger :pac:

As this is exactly what this has degenerated into (a p!ssing contest), I wish you well and I'm glad you've found a better place to buy your coffee.

Ah, I see. Well if you have the data to back up your empirically reached conclusion then go ahead and post it and I will gladly concede my anecdotal contribution. I look forward to seeing the differences in time it takes to pay by cash vs card, I'm sure I'll be just flabbergasted by the number of people who visibly age while trying to pay for a coffee and a muffin.

Shelflife

Interesting thread both this one and the top up extra charge thread in rip offs.

Its suprising how little people know about running a business or how a simple business system works and also how their sense of entitlement is just so grand that they cant or wont see how their actions impact on others.

We have a min spend on our shop, its €5, under that we dont allow a debit card to be used unless your willing to pay the transaction charge of 25c.

We didnt used to, but a combination of the banks changing from laser to debit cards and upping the transaction charge by 66% as well as people coming in and using their card to buy chewing gum or 1 stamp just pushed us over the edge. we also had people who just wanted cash back and would buy a lollypop just to get it.

We come on here to explain to customers why this is happening to be told its my card and i want to use it in what ever manner i want and not have to pay for it. if you cant accomodate me then close. we get told that problems we see on a daily basis (queues building up because cc transactions are slower than cash) are not true because im really quick when I use mine.

You state its not your problem that costs go up whether its banks or phone companies but the simple fact of the matter is it really is. everything has a cost, theres no such thing as a free dinner and every business strives to make a profit.

Profit is simply Sales minus cost of the sale (thats every cost we incur) = profit. if costs go up then the sales price must go up.

the problem that i see is people assume that the retailers are slimey profit mongers and all these increases go into our pocket and that we are simply rip off merchants --- so you have a go at us because thats where you see the final cost.

In reality the blame lies with the big phone companies and the banks with their inflated charges but sure wheres the fun in having a go at them when you can tell the shopkeeper that hes a greedy bastard to his face.

Bit of long winded rant/explaination.

MagicMarker

Yep, big rant that. I'll feel sorry for the shopkeepers when min charges apply everywhere. In the mean time, you can continue ranting while I give my money to your competitor across the road.

P. Breathnach

Even in these difficult times, I am sure that there are some customers that retailers are not sorry to lose.

Cabaal

jester77 wrote: »

That sounds ridiculous. These costs are a typical part of doing a business and should never be passed on to the customer like this. When water meters are brought in are these places going to charge customers for using their toilet facilities? I thought there was some sort of a recession in Ireland, surely these places should me more than happy to get a customers money.

Businesses already pay rates, so yes customers do technically already pay for using the water as stuff like that is already included in the businesses prices so running costs are covered.

It's unrealistic to expect a company to not cover it's costs,

Either the business adds a fee or they just stealth the charge by upping overall prices,

Atleast by adding the fee then people paying cash dint have to pay it

Morph the Cat

I personally can't stand some idiot in front of me trying to pay for a coffee or chocolate bar with a laser card; just hit an ATM, FFS - it saves you time in every queue too. If it's under €10, it should be common courtesy that you have cash on you whenever possible. Some idiots are just Laser-happy.

sandin

B0X wrote: »

Depending on who's processing the transactions, the credit card company will take up to 2.9% of the cost of the transaction plus 30c. On a €2 coffee that's 18% of total being taken.

Not that I agree with charging a minimum of €5 though, that's pretty poor form.

hfallada wrote: »

All businesses have to pay a merchant bank fee. Usually about 1,75%-2.5% for visa debit and about 3-4% for a visa credit card. Plus they have to pay monthly fees on the machine. It all adds up.

A transaction using cards in a pain. It takes about twice as long to do as a cash purchase. I don't like using cash either. But in the CC with a ATM nearly every 100 mins, you can't complain that it's not convient to find cash

Visa Debit / Mastercard debit & Laser are charged in most cases a single transaction fee of 12c-30c depending on your volume.

Credit cards are charged at 1% - 1.75% depending on your volume.

Any retailer paying over 1.75% needs to change.


NFC cards will cut all these minimums out as certain benefits of visa/mastercard such as insurance won't apply to purchases under €20 and therefore transaction using NFC technology will cost the retailer less than 10c and the time taken for a transaction will be a couple of seconds.

BTW - a retailer will pay 0.45% for lodging cash

sandin

jester77 wrote: »

That sounds ridiculous. These costs are a typical part of doing a business and should never be passed on to the customer like this. When water meters are brought in are these places going to charge customers for using their toilet facilities? I thought there was some sort of a recession in Ireland, surely these places should me more than happy to get a customers money.

Business already pays very heavily for water and for disposal of waste water - that's on top of commercial rates!
Almost every business has a water meter already!

e.g. a standard retail store with 8 staff using toilet & kitchen with no water required for the customers. Store based in Dun laoghaire district. Annual water charges approx 650 per year, + annual waste water charges of 650 per year in addition to commercial rates of 16,000 a year!