Who are the candidates for the Ireland job?

Dempsey

Pro. F wrote: »

So you're setting that requirement before you even see who we have in the qualifying group?

24 out of 46 countries can qualify so expectation should be higher

I am pie

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nothing to do with the Senior Team manager. Nice or "right" football also irrelevant. Results job. Qualify for 2016 or come real close or you get the sack.

You play whatever ball maximises chances of doing that.

Lots of silly opinions floating around this forum regarding the Irish Senior team.

Very poor short sighted approach, you should apply for a job at the FAI. Someone needs to apply an approach which will develop success over the longer term.

The senior team manager must have a say in this as in 2 or 3 years time some of the 18 to 21 yr olds should be coming through to push into the senior team.

In an organisation as small as the FAI the senior team manager absolutely has a role to play in developing the game. Short sighted, qualify or die views ignore where the team is at right now and ignore the grass roots problem which must be addressed.

Qualify or get damn close? The latter part of that statement is such a poor standard to hold a manager too it is almost comical. Just blunder on with more of the same and we'll give you another contract? Wow..did we learn nothing?

Game needs an overhaul in Ireland, starting with the kids and the coaching, evidently some fans haven't the appetite to try or are too obsessed with short term "almost successes" ...that aul sure we give it a rattle sh1te belongs in the 80s. By your metric we could finish 3rd every qualifying campaign and that'd be OK? Or maybe get knocked out in the playoffs?

Pathetic.

Pro. F

Dempsey wrote: »

24 out of 46 countries can qualify so expectation should be higher

If we get a normal type of group then expectations should be very high I agree. But it will still be possible to get a group of death I expect.

Pro. F

I am pie wrote: »

Very poor short sighted approach, you should apply for a job at the FAI. Someone needs to apply an approach which will develop success over the longer term.

The senior team manager must have a say in this as in 2 or 3 years time some of the 18 to 21 yr olds should be coming through to push into the senior team.

In an organisation as small as the FAI the senior team manager absolutely has a role to play in developing the game. Short sighted, qualify or die views ignore where the team is at right now and ignore the grass roots problem which must be addressed.

Qualify or get damn close? The latter part of that statement is such a poor standard to hold a manager too it is almost comical. Just blunder on with more of the same and we'll give you another contract? Wow..did we learn nothing?

Game needs an overhaul in Ireland, starting with the kids and the coaching, evidently some fans haven't the appetite to try or are too obsessed with short term "almost successes" ...that aul sure we give it a rattle sh1te belongs in the 80s. By your metric we could finish 3rd every qualifying campaign and that'd be OK? Or maybe get knocked out in the playoffs?

Pathetic.

It's not the job of an international manager to overhaul the youth set up. The international manager could get himself fired at any time so there is no need to tie the YD overhaul to him. Give it to somebody who can stay in the job long term.

CSF

Dempsey wrote: »

You were hoping for populist agreement from those that dont watch Scottish Football, good for you I suppose.

No no. Just expressing my opinion.

tayto lover

deadeye187 wrote: »

If Mick (the d*ck) McCarthy is all we can hope for then were done for!...

mark my words.

Championship manager is all he is good for!....

At least he'd stay unlike Roy (the runner) who is being proposed by some poor chancers.

deadeye187

COYW wrote: »

They were annihilated in the knockout stages by Juventus but getting through that group was a good achievement and one that Lennon deserve many plaudits for.

I think that every neutral agrees that poor quality of the SPL is a massive bonus for Celtic when it comes to European football. They can win pretty much every SPL, home and away, in second gear and are well rested for their CL games.

Lack of playing against such good teams week in week out means when they do play a good team, they will lack pace and everything else that goes with not playing quality teams every week!

It actually makes it harder for them!

grenache

Has Gus Poyet been mentioned yet? Think he's a great candidate but probably wouldn't touch the Irish job so early in his club managerial career.

Dempsey

CSF wrote: »

No no. Just expressing my opinion.

And it deserves the ridicule its been getting because its an ignorant one.

COYW wrote: »

They were annihilated in the knockout stages by Juventus but getting through that group was a good achievement and one that Lennon deserve many plaudits for.

I think that every neutral agrees that poor quality of the SPL is a massive bonus for Celtic when it comes to European football. They can win pretty much every SPL, home and away, in second gear and are well rested for their CL games. Most SPL teams, the others, are more suited to a semi-pro set up.

Lennon is far too young and in-experienced for international football anyway.

Most that watched the match say that Celtic played well and it was alot of individual errors that cost them the game. Juventus were the better side over 2 legs but then again Juventus have a wage spend about 4 times that of Celtic, never mind what they can spend on transfer fees.

Last year showed that they cant win SPL games in 2nd gear if you watched those SPL games either side of UCL games. Teams are fired up to play Celtic every week, they have to play well or drop points

WoollyRedHat

Aenaes wrote: »

Alex Ferguson, Mourinho, David Moyes and Carlo Ancelotti.

Hughton and McDermott were never frontrunners as they were never going to leave their clubs.

Mourinho? Let's not be unrealistic now...

CSF

Dempsey wrote: »

And it deserves the ridicule its been getting because its an ignorant one.

I haven't been ridiculed by anyone who doesn't support Celtic. If I said it about Moyes, I'd have United fans going mad, if I said it about Rodgers, Liverpool, Beattie, Accrington......you get the point.

devotional1993

deadeye187 wrote: »

If Mick (the d*ck) McCarthy is all we can hope for then were done for!...

mark my words.

Championship manager is all he is good for!....

no need for that now

Aenaes

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Mourinho? Let's not be unrealistic now...

That was kinda the point. McDermott and Hughton were unrealistic but were touted as "frontrunners" until they obviously ruled themselves out.

Ferguson has been mentioned more than once on here concerning the Ireland job...

Dempsey

CSF wrote: »

I haven't been ridiculed by anyone who doesn't support Celtic. If I said it about Moyes, I'd have United fans going mad, if I said it about Rodgers, Liverpool, Beattie, Accrington......you get the point.

That strawman argument doesnt make it any less ignorant, does it?

loyatemu

Dempsey wrote: »

24 out of 46 countries can qualify so expectation should be higher

its 53 countries actually, though we can probably rule out Gibraltar, San Marino, Liechtenstein, Faroes, Wales, Moldova, Andorra, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Norn Iron, Luxembourg and Malta.

CSF

Dempsey wrote: »

That strawman argument doesnt make it any less ignorant, does it?

Not going any further with this. You're ridiculous.

deadeye187

devotional1993 wrote: »

no need for that now

I think his record shows that he is a championship manager!

I think he has/or once held the lowest points tally ever for a PL team, not cut out for the big time.

So back to my point he is a championship manager at best!


No where good enough for Ireland.

Soups123

deadeye187 wrote: »

I think his record shows that he is a championship manager!

I think he has/or once held the lowest points tally ever for a PL team, not cut out for the big time.

So back to my point he is a championship manager at best!


No where good enough for Ireland.

Not good enough yet brought through the next generation of Young Irish players and qualified not only for the World Cup but also got through the groups playing and nice brand of football!

McCarthy was excellent and well suited to international management

deadeye187

Soups123 wrote: »

Not good enough yet brought through the next generation of Young Irish players and qualified not only for the World Cup but also got through the groups playing and nice brand of football!

McCarthy was excellent and well suited to international management

Back in the day!...football has moved on and so should we!.....like I said the standard of football then is like championship now, where Mick will do his best! Football at top level is like another sport compared to then.

Soups123

deadeye187 wrote: »

Back in the day!...football has moved on and so should we!.....like I said the slandered of football then is like championship now, where Mick will do his best! Football at top level is like another sport compared to then.

International Football has not changed much at all

deadeye187

Soups123 wrote: »

International Football has not changed much at all

sure...spain was winning everything back then!...............

its changed, maybe if you stop watching replays of euro 02 and look at modern football, you will see, get your McCarthy blinkers off.

Dempsey

CSF wrote: »

Not going any further with this. You're ridiculous.

Given your earlier 'reasoning' and now your pathetic attempt to mock me, yes this is done. :rolleyes:

Soups123

deadeye187 wrote: »

sure...spain was winning everything back then!...............

its changed, maybe if you stop watching replays of euro 02 and look at modern football, you will see, get your McCarthy blinkers off.

Yes that's what it is I have McCarthy blinkers. So what has so drastically changed?

deadeye187

Soups123 wrote: »

Yes that's what it is I have McCarthy blinkers. So what has so drastically changed?

The Game, training, diet, recovery methods, money etc etc etc etc.....


Wait what hasn`t change?

apart from the kits

Soups123

deadeye187 wrote: »

The Game, training, diet, recovery methods, money etc etc etc etc.....


Wait what hasn`t change?

apart from the kits

So basically you have no idea how its changed since 2002. Listing off the general things about football doesn't in anyway explain how international football has changed.

The only thing that has changed is the balance of power

Dempsey

4-4-2 is now considered by many to be an outdated tactic for international football with many of the progressive sides over the last 10 years using variants of 4-5-1

deadeye187

Soups123 wrote: »

So basically you have no idea how its changed since 2002. Listing off the general things about football doesn't in anyway explain how international football has changed.

The only thing that has changed is the balance of power

ok man I had no idea what i`m up against here...........training methods, the way coaches are trained, tactics etc etc if what I have listed dose not make it clear what has changed since 2002 I give up...its clear you have no idea man, and tbh I not bothered to even talk to you anymore.......your beneath me!..................stick to the cricket..


this is a football thread.......football!........

Soups123

deadeye187 wrote: »

ok man I had no idea what i`m up against here...........training methods, the way coaches are trained, tactics etc etc if what I have listed dose not make it clear what has changed since 2002 I give up...its clear you have no idea man, and tbh I not bothered to even talk to you anymore.......your beneath me!..................stick to the cricket

Ha ha seriously. That was interesting, your a spoofer

deadeye187

Having someone on the list when you can`t see what they say is very nice.....

even better when they have no idea what they are on about...


No to Mick(the d*ck)...No to MON...................

onwards and upwards

Soups123

deadeye187 wrote: »

Having someone on the list when you can`t see what they say is very nice.....

even better when they have no idea what they are on about...


No to Mick(the d*ck)...No to MON...................

onwards and upwards

If nothing else you gave me a few laughs before bed time, definitely one of the quickest, strangest reactions to a light hearted debate I've seen for a long while.

Lennonist

Dempsey wrote: »

Given your earlier 'reasoning' and now your pathetic attempt to mock me, yes this is done. :rolleyes:

You went easy on him:pac:

Lennonist

deadeye187 wrote: »

No to Mick(the d*ck)...No to MON...................

onwards and upwards

The man from Del Monte says Yes, and he's an orangeman

Corholio

deadeye187 wrote: »

Back in the day!...football has moved on and so should we!.....like I said the standard of football then is like championship now, where Mick will do his best! Football at top level is like another sport compared to then.

So what manager who has managed at the top level would you put forward then?

championc

Mick may be considered a C'Ship manager based on his current squad but has he been able to get a medium skilled squad to over achieve ? That would be the job in the hot seat.

Pro. F

Dempsey wrote: »

4-4-2 is now considered by many to be an outdated tactic for international football with many of the progressive sides over the last 10 years using variants of 4-5-1

Majority of teams still defend in a 442. The idea that football has changed dramatically is a complete myth. Continuous advances in fitness training is the only significant change that is going on and even Championship managers have easy access to those advancements. Not that I'm for McCarthy, he's nowhere near good enough imo.

deadeye187 wrote: »

Having someone on the list when you can`t see what they say is very nice.....

even better when they have no idea what they are on about...


No to Mick(the d*ck)...No to MON...................

onwards and upwards

What is with the "Mick the Dick" stuff? Are you just trying to be obnoxious for the sake of it?

WoollyRedHat

Aenaes wrote: »

That was kinda the point. McDermott and Hughton were unrealistic but were touted as "frontrunners" until they obviously ruled themselves out.

Ferguson has been mentioned more than once on here concerning the Ireland job...

I know that......

While they may have been unrealistic, they were on the tip of peoples tounges as both have expressed interest in the Ireland job in the past... my question was pretty straightforward following that, so don't know why you felt the need to reply with such dripping sarcasm?

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

So you're setting that requirement before you even see who we have in the qualifying group?

I am setting that as the general media and fanbase's requirement / expectation irrespective of the group yes. You and I may have different thoughts when the time comes.

Seaneh

cremeegg wrote: »

HECTOR CUPER is interested in the job... right man at the right time

Link?

Seaneh

deadeye187 wrote: »

I think his record shows that he is a championship manager!

I think he has/or once held the lowest points tally ever for a PL team, not cut out for the big time.

So back to my point he is a championship manager at best!


No where good enough for Ireland.

winning the Championship is far more of an achievement than winning the SPL.

Dempsey

Seaneh wrote: »

winning the Championship is far more of an achievement than winning the SPL.

Depends on what club is winning it!

devotional1993

deadeye187 wrote: »

sure...spain was winning everything back then!...............

its changed, maybe if you stop watching replays of euro 02 and look at modern football, you will see, get your McCarthy blinkers off.

At least Mick knew we were playing in a world cup that year and not Euro 02!

LuckyLloyd

I am pie wrote: »

Very poor short sighted approach, you should apply for a job at the FAI. Someone needs to apply an approach which will develop success over the longer term.

The senior team manager must have a say in this as in 2 or 3 years time some of the 18 to 21 yr olds should be coming through to push into the senior team.

In an organisation as small as the FAI the senior team manager absolutely has a role to play in developing the game. Short sighted, qualify or die views ignore where the team is at right now and ignore the grass roots problem which must be addressed.

No, no and no again. Senior managers come and go. There is no sense in tieing your youth structures into one man's vision where that man is unlikely to ever see more than 6 years in the job. I don't disagree that a major overhaul of National level development programs and grassroots football feeding into that. I am acutely aware of it actually. But that change is way beyond the skills, capabilities and remit of a senior manager.

People like to throw around sentences like 'grassroots football needs to be changed in this country' without having the foggiest notion of all the challenges and obstuctions that exist blocking fundamental change taking place. Leaving aside resources (which is an issue), the grassroots game is full of stakeholders and decision makers at all levels of the youth game who are incentivised to resist change and maintain the current status quos. People say 'we need to stop farming development of young players out to the UK club system' without comprehending the money that DDSL clubs make from achieving just that.

Qualify or get damn close? The latter part of that statement is such a poor standard to hold a manager too it is almost comical. Just blunder on with more of the same and we'll give you another contract? Wow..did we learn nothing?

Game needs an overhaul in Ireland, starting with the kids and the coaching, evidently some fans haven't the appetite to try or are too obsessed with short term "almost successes" ...that aul sure we give it a rattle sh1te belongs in the 80s. By your metric we could finish 3rd every qualifying campaign and that'd be OK? Or maybe get knocked out in the playoffs?

Pathetic.

If we got 3rd every qualifying campaign we would be operating at a reasonable expectation given our population; domestic game structure and playing pool. Infact, to be honest, for the first two factors that would represent a consistent overachievement. Our national team currently operates at a far higher level than our league's coefficient rating.

Like it or lump it, the business of the national team is a results based one. People like to say that they would be patient so long as we were playing the ball on the deck and giving young players a chance. But think about the reality of a fourth or fifth place finish. Then the consequent loss of seeding leading to a tougher group and so on. All the nice football in the world wouldn't stop people froathing at the mouth for a new manager or Landsdowne attendences being at a record low.

This post is the reality of the situation sir. I'm not sure how well informed or grounded your view of the situation is.

DeanAustin

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, no and no again. Senior managers come and go. There is no sense in tieing your youth structures into one man's vision where that man is unlikely to ever see more than 6 years in the job. I don't disagree that a major overhaul of National level development programs and grassroots football feeding into that. I am acutely aware of it actually. But that change is way beyond the skills, capabilities and remit of a senior manager.

People like to throw around sentences like 'grassroots football needs to be changed in this country' without having the foggiest notion of all the challenges and obstuctions that exist blocking fundamental change taking place. Leaving aside resources (which is an issue), the grassroots game is full of stakeholders and decision makers at all levels of the youth game who are incentivised to resist change and maintain the current status quos. People say 'we need to stop farming development of young players out to the UK club system' without comprehending the money that DDSL clubs make from achieving just that.



If we got 3rd every qualifying campaign we would be operating at a reasonable expectation given our population; domestic game structure and playing pool. Infact, to be honest, for the first two factors that would represent a consistent overachievement. Our national team currently operates at a far higher level than our league's coefficient rating.

Like it or lump it, the business of the national team is a results based one. People like to say that they would be patient so long as we were playing the ball on the deck and giving young players a chance. But think about the reality of a fourth or fifth place finish. Then the consequent loss of seeding leading to a tougher group and so on. All the nice football in the world wouldn't stop people froathing at the mouth for a new manager or Landsdowne attendences being at a record low.

This post is the reality of the situation sir. I'm not sure how well informed or grounded your view of the situation is.

Absolutely fantastic post.

Your point about throwing phrases like "grassroots football needs to change" is particularly well made. Aside from the obstacles that genuinely exist, people need to realise that it could be 10-20 years before you would see real benefit from such a change.

In an environment where people love to talk about "long term visions and planning" but also want managers gone after a few bad results, I don't think a lot of people really have the mindset or patience to see something like that through.

Let's just hire the guy that fixed the Belgian system for the grass roots issues and we'll be grand

RikkFlair

Walter Zenga is interested http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/former-italy-keeper-zenga-believes-hes-right-man-for-ireland-243412.html

DeanAustin

deadeye187 wrote: »

Back in the day!...football has moved on and so should we!.....like I said the standard of football then is like championship now, where Mick will do his best! Football at top level is like another sport compared to then.

Can you tell me how football has changed and how those changes have been something McCarthy is unable to adapt to and why?

I'm always fascinated by this sort of statement.

PhlegmyMoses

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

People say 'we need to stop farming development of young players out to the UK club system' without comprehending the money that DDSL clubs make from achieving just that.

One doesn't beget the other. We absolutely need to stop farming our players' development to the UK. We absolutely need to improve coaching in this country and change the ethos of how we develop our players. This doesn't mean that I don't understand the inherent problems with changing this system. You don't need to have the answers to point out a flaw or a problem. The discussion starts once the problem has been identified.

Edit: I do agree that this all has nothing to do with Trap, though. Such a change would take a decade or more so it's not really relevant to a discussion like this. My biggest worry about Trap was that I'm not sure the players liked him or respected him a whole lot. He pissed off a few of them. This counts for a lot at international level.

aidan24326

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

One doesn't beget the other. We absolutely need to stop farming our players' development to the UK. We absolutely need to improve coaching in this country and change the ethos of how we develop our playersl.

Aren't you missing the point that to do this we would need a league that could keep our young players here? Right now even a career in league 2 in England is more attractive than playing LOI. So long as we have (and I'm just calling a spade a spade) a pretty crap league here in terms of the standard, the money, the organisation etc, then it's inevitable that the best young players will go to the UK. And that in itself isn't a problem, our best players have always played in England and always will. The main problem at the moment is we're just not producing enough good players and that isn't easily fixed.

LuckyLloyd

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

One doesn't beget the other. We absolutely need to stop farming our players' development to the UK. We absolutely need to improve coaching in this country and change the ethos of how we develop our players. This doesn't mean that I don't understand the inherent problems with changing this system. You don't need to have the answers to point out a flaw or a problem. The discussion starts once the problem has been identified.

Edit: I do agree that this all has nothing to do with Trap, though. Such a change would take a decade or more so it's not really relevant to a discussion like this. My biggest worry about Trap was that I'm not sure the players liked him or respected him a whole lot. He pissed off a few of them. This counts for a lot at international level.

Which is the point. If people want to start a real thread about how to change the game from the bottom up I'm all for it. But the U21 and Senior sides exist outside that sphere. At those levels, you're talking about players who have graduated from whatever domestic development systems exist and are now paid to play the game. That's where the Senior role starts and ends, and while the former is developmental and about feeding players into the latter - the latter is most definitely about winning as many games as possible by whatever means necessary.

If people want to talk about stopping farming of players out and improving coaching then here are some of the things off the top of my head that would need to happen:

- LOI teams having the resources to offer DDSL clubs and elite youth players a financial package commensurate to rates offered by UK Clubs;
- LOI teams having the resources and facilities to match the coaching and player development programs offered by UK Clubs (the establishment of the National U19 league is the tiniest of tiny steps forward in respect of these two aims);
- The FAI establishing effective administerative control of youth competitions (never going to happen);
- The FAI establising an effective and unbiased cental committee responsible for hiring coaches for national youth development sides (lol);
- The FAI establishing effective scouting networks to get the right players at youth levels into elite development squads from the get go (all based on reputation at present because the numbers and time doesn't exist to see all the games that matter and report on it in a controlled way);
- The FAI removing any semblence of results orientated review for elite youth development squads all the way through to U21 level (lose two games in a row as an Irish U15 manager currently and you'll be dragged over hot coals explaining what's wrong);
- The FAI substantially increasing the level of UEFA 'B' and 'A' license coaches and subsidising recruitment of such coaches at elite youth level for schoolboy clubs (good luck with all of this);
- The FAI successfully lobbying government to invest in better playing surfaces up and down the country (ha!);
- The eventual establishment of a National Acadamy (:rolleyes:);

And I'm sure there's a ton more too. The point being that all of these things have sweet **** all to do with Trapp; whether the senior team hoofs it; what Dunphy and the boys think; easy solutions in the sports section of the Independent; what ****ing Belgium did the past two decades; etc.

There's no easy solution, and if we were on the right path to fixing all this the national side could still ABSOLUTELY be short term and results orientated in their approach.

dfx-

lads and ladies, a quick note: deadeye187 is on a short break from the forum, he cannot reply, please do not quote him.