Trappatoni no longer ROI manager!

Corholio

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

yes i agree..

said it before few times, but I still dont blame Henry. He did what any player would have done.

Maybe end of game with Dunne was not appropriate, but thats another story

I dont agree with the 'any player would have done it'. It seems to have been the common line since the stance softened. No player who cheats would ever be criticised so.

wonderfullife

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I won't partake in thanking Trap, as I feel his achievements were nothing we shouldn't expect, and indeed they were limited from further achievement by his stubborn personnel choices, man management skills and playing style.

I will say though, it was a classy move to forego the rest of the payment in his contract from a struggling federation. He's a legendary footballing figure and I wish him a happy retirement should he decide to do so.

And herein lies a large part of the problem. Expectations.

How can you imply we should have "expected" to reach the play-off with France? We were in Pot 3. Italy and Bulgaria were ranked above us. But forget the FIFA world rankings (as i believe they intrinsically don't mean a lot). Look at the Italian, Bulgarian and Montengran sides we faced. Buffon, Pirlo, De Rossi, Berbatov, Petrov, Vucinic, Jovatic......

That campaign we faced 3 sides with better players, more technical players and we went the campaign unbeaten to reach the play-off.

Again for the Euros Pot 3. It could be argued we got lucky in getting Slovakia as the 2nd seed. It could be argued we were lucky in that Armenia proved a surprise package and team on the rise who took points off Slovakia. It could be argued we got a good group.

On the other hand it could equally be argued we had a pretty tough group with 3 very solid technical sides in it. A lot of travelling as well to far flung eastern countries, not easy places to go and get results as England and Wales have shown recently with inept performances against relatively weak sides.

For Euro 2012 and World Cup 2010 our qualifying results read as this:

Played: 20
Won: 10
Draw: 9
Loss: 1

Lets get this straight, no reasonable fan could (or should) have "expected" that record across 20 games against better opposition.

We have no divine right to expect qualification or success with the players we have. Trap did far more than "expected" and really his entire tenure came unhinged in 1 week, when in truth 2 narrow defeats could have gone either way.

I'm glad there's been a change now. Fresh ideas can't hurt. But to say all he did was meet expectations is ridiculous, if those are your expectations you're in for years of disappointment and you'll be hating on the new coach pretty fast.

Kerrydude1981

I heard yesterday on The Last Word that our expectations of the team was too high.

We were never going to top the group so,

Is trying to finish second and get a play off place now too much for us to ask?

DeanAustin

wonderfullife wrote: »

And herein lies a large part of the problem. Expectations.

How can you imply we should have "expected" to reach the play-off with France? We were in Pot 3. Italy and Bulgaria were ranked above us. But forget the FIFA world rankings (as i believe they intrinsically don't mean a lot). Look at the Italian, Bulgarian and Montengran sides we faced. Buffon, Pirlo, De Rossi, Berbatov, Petrov, Vucinic, Jovatic......

That campaign we faced 3 sides with better players, more technical players and we went the campaign unbeaten to reach the play-off.

Again for the Euros Pot 3. It could be argued we got lucky in getting Slovakia as the 2nd seed. It could be argued we were lucky in that Armenia proved a surprise package and team on the rise who took points off Slovakia. It could be argued we got a good group.

On the other hand it could equally be argued we had a pretty tough group with 3 very solid technical sides in it. A lot of travelling as well to far flung eastern countries, not easy places to go and get results as England and Wales have shown recently with inept performances against relatively weak sides.

For Euro 2012 and World Cup 2010 our qualifying results read as this:

Played: 20
Won: 10
Draw: 9
Loss: 1

Lets get this straight, no reasonable fan could (or should) have "expected" that record across 20 games against better opposition.

We have no divine right to expect qualification or success with the players we have. Trap did far more than "expected" and really his entire tenure came unhinged in 1 week, when in truth 2 narrow defeats could have gone either way.

I'm glad there's been a change now. Fresh ideas can't hurt. But to say all he did was meet expectations is ridiculous, if those are your expectations you're in for years of disappointment and you'll be hating on the new coach pretty fast.

Super post. Some people really need to have a look at themselves and what they think Ireland should be achieving.

The time was right for Trap to go but for 4 years, he had a tremendous record. We do not have the players to "expect" first or second place. In our history, we have only once topped a qualifying group. We've finished second multiple times but with far, far better players than we have now.

People are talking about the likes of Gibson and Hoolahan as if they are going to make a massive improvement. Gibson may find himself lucky to get a game at Everton with McCarthy and Barry arriving. He didn't exactly tear up trees at United. He's decent but he isn't going to transform us into world beaters.

Hoolahan is a very tidy player. I really like him but he's done little of note in the English game and is struggling to get into the Norwich team. He's decent but no better.

We've had Given, Dunne, Keane, Duff and O'Shea decline over the last number of years. When they were around their peak 2003-2008, we qualified for nothing. The players coming behind (Forde, Clark, Long, Pilkington) just aren't as good. Expectations need to be adjusted.

deadeye187

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

I heard yesterday on The Last Word that our expectations of the team was too high.

We were never going to top the group so,

Is trying to finish second and get a play off place now too much for us to ask?

Greece winning the euros would not have happened without high expectations within the team. The Ireland team look like they are on damage control every time they take to the field.

Trap was not up for the job, age and lack of motivation(the man didn't even bother to learn english ffs) meant he should have been replaced well before this WC group.

Just watch them Muppets in the FAI make the wrong choice again!

Leroy42

I think part of the problem regarding the expectations is actually down to the FAI themselves. They have now dropped the prices for games but before they were charging based on us being a top ties country, when quite clearly we are not.

I agree that Trap did a very good job up to Euro 2012. He steadied the fast sinking ship of Stautons reign and almost got us to the WC. He got us to the Euros and everybody was delighted.

It was apparent in the lead up- and obviously in the Euros themselves, that something had drastically changed. Whatever had been working before was now not working and Trap seemed at a loss to do anything about it. A bit like Jack. He had a game plan, which worked great, but when it stopped working (for whatever reasons) he didn't seem to have the ability to change.

A new manager is going to be brought in, a year too late, but whilst I expect better performances from the team, I don't suddenly expect that players like Gibson etc will change us into world beaters.

We had the same clamouring over Andy Reid for the panel and the supporters and what did he ever do? Holohan is a decent player, not world class and certainly not someone to build a team around.

I say a big thank you to Trap and the team for the time up to Euros, but after that I am glad he is gone. Whatever about the results the performance was boring, lack of energy, lack of any discernable purpose and a clear lack of belief.

Will a new manager be able to better that? We only have to look at Strachan in Scotland. They are playing better football, and getting some nice results, but they are still having to deal with a lack of quality.

Mitch Connor

DeanAustin wrote: »

We've had Given, Dunne, Keane, Duff and O'Shea decline over the last number of years. When they were around their peak 2003-2008, we qualified for nothing. The players coming behind (Forde, Clark, Long, Pilkington) just aren't as good. Expectations need to be adjusted.

So what do the expectations need to be adjusted to? what should the fans accept?

Winning our qualifying group with crap football?
Winning our qualifying group with good football?
Qualifying with crap football?
Qualifying with good football?
Competing at any level with crap football?
Competing at any level with good football?

Personally, I dont expect much from the Ireland team as I don't think we have a brilliant group of players - but with the players we do have I expect us to actually try to play football akin to what we see in the Premiership, in style, rather than just a throw back to the Charlton era of 'put 'em under pressure' long ball to the big man.

While we don't have a great group of players, we have one that is capable of playing a far more attractive brand of football than they have been playing, and I don't think results would be any worse for it.

Under Trap the biggest problem, imo, is that the team have been terrible to watch. If we aren't good to watch, especially while the Rugby sides generally are, then kids will be turned to watching and playing rugby instead, for example.

I don't expect much, but I do expect not to be bored to tears every time Ireland play.

sReq | uTeK

bucketybuck wrote: »

This is a fallacy that really needs to stop being repeated.

Do you understand what a fallacy is ?

How is stating a clear "FACT" a poor reason for an argument, are you saying that Henry didn't handle the ball and score from doing so? we were robbed, robbed of the chance to qualify, whether that be by extra time or penalties, we were clearly denied a "LEVEL" playing field in order to do so.

jonnyfingers

wonderfullife wrote: »

Trap did far more than "expected" and really his entire tenure came unhinged in 1 week, when in truth 2 narrow defeats could have gone either way.

I agree with the rest of your post except for this one. Hi tenure came unhinged at the Euros. If you look at his stats we drew almost as much as we won. This is because he set his teams up not to lose. That was fine for qualification as drawing against the big teams and winning against the smaller teams always gives you a chance, as other teams will naturally take points off each other. Trap even admitted that we should aim for second place in the groups and try to qualify through the playoffs as we weren't good enough to win the group.

When we made it to the Euros it was that attitude that really cost us. He continued to play not to lose, instead of trying to win. I was there and it was depressing watching us play. What's the point of playing that way? He should have be sacked after the Euros as a result. I think he did great leading us to the Euros, and almost the World Cup, but his game plan was severely flawed when it came to competition finals so why persist with them?

You're right in saying that we've had two narrow defeats that could have gone either way, but I think this whole campaign has been more of the same from Trap, but this time we're lacking the likes of Given and Duff and some others that might have swung the close games our way in the past.

So I'm thankful for Trap's time, it gave me a chance to watch Ireland play in a major finals, but in a few weeks, when the dust settles and a new manager comes in I think we'll come to realise that his style and team selections haven't left us in good shape.

deadeye187

I hated trapp, and always will!


our showing at the euros was pathetic

Its not good enough to get to the big tournaments, when we get there we should be able to compete

kryogen

deadeye187 wrote: »

I hated trapp, and always will!


our showing at the euros was pathetic

Its not good enough to get to the big tournaments, when we get there we should be able to compete

To what level?

DeanAustin

deadeye187 wrote: »

Greece winning the euros would not have happened without high expectations within the team. The Ireland team look like they are on damage control every time they take to the field.

Trap was not up for the job, age and lack of motivation(the man didn't even bother to learn english ffs) meant he should have been replaced well before this WC group.

Just watch them Muppets in the FAI make the wrong choice again!

You think Greece went to Euro 2004 expecting to win it? Had they gone out in the group, the manager still wouldn't have been hammered.

And if you want to talk damage limitation, that Greece team were a fine example of it.

DeanAustin

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So what do the expectations need to be adjusted to? what should the fans accept?

Winning our qualifying group with crap football?
Winning our qualifying group with good football?
Qualifying with crap football?
Qualifying with good football?
Competing at any level with crap football?
Competing at any level with good football?

Personally, I dont expect much from the Ireland team as I don't think we have a brilliant group of players - but with the players we do have I expect us to actually try to play football akin to what we see in the Premiership, in style, rather than just a throw back to the Charlton era of 'put 'em under pressure' long ball to the big man.

While we don't have a great group of players, we have one that is capable of playing a far more attractive brand of football than they have been playing, and I don't think results would be any worse for it.

Under Trap the biggest problem, imo, is that the team have been terrible to watch. If we aren't good to watch, especially while the Rugby sides generally are, then kids will be turned to watching and playing rugby instead, for example.

I don't expect much, but I do expect not to be bored to tears every time Ireland play.

And there are some good questions in there. How important is good football? Is it a requisite for the next manager? Frankly, I believe that you can be successful playing with pretty much any type of style so you need to set the manager a goal in terms of results. To me, finishing third or higher sounds like a reasonable minimum requirement. In my opinion, it's unfair to hire a manager and say "Get top two or you're out" because we don't have a strong recent history of finishing in the top two and will likely be seeded fourth next time around.

If you believe that style is important then hire a manager with a history of playing good football. You can't have the FAI dictating the manager's philosophy or tactics but history is a good indicator of what type of football he'll play. Trap was always going to play a style that wasn't pleasing on the eye. It was a talking point at the time of his apppointment.

Incidentally, "good football" is a very subjective term. A lot of people would consider The Premiership, generally speaking, as anything but a beacon of good football.

deadeye187

kryogen wrote: »

To what level?

To what level?


Well Celtic can beat Barca! To this level would do!

jmayo

kryogen wrote: »

To what level?

To a level where we don't look like a team of rank amateurs who just met each other on the bus to the match.
We didn't look like a functioning team, we looked clueless.
Any decent players that were on the pitch did not play anything like they are capable of.

The biggest issue was that we didn't even have the best players available on the pitch.
trap throughout his Irish stint has alienated some of our best players in favour of lesser players.
And to counter the usual arguement coming down the track, nowhere have I stated that our best players are world class, but at least they are better than the muppets that took their places.

And for anyone that complains that our expectations were too high.
I will just answer we were paying our manager one of the highest salaries in international football.

It appears nowadays that we have a mindset in Ireland (politics, business, public service and now sport) that it is ok to pay some of the highest salaries in the world and get feckless incompetence in return.

And trap was incompetent from the very moment he refused to go watch Irish players play live rather than send his scouts or just wacth DVDs.

Dolph Starbeam

deadeye187 wrote: »

I hated trapp, and always will!


our showing at the euros was pathetic

Its not good enough to get to the big tournaments, when we get there we should be able to compete

I'm not his biggest fan but Its not fair to blame Trap for the Euros, in our group we came up against 2 of the eventual finalists and a very good Croatian side, our performances were very very poor but the group we got gave us no chance.

DeanAustin

jmayo wrote: »

To a level where we don't look like a team of rank amateurs who just met each other on the bus to the match.
We didn't look like a functioning team, we looked clueless.
Any decent players that were on the pitch did not play anything like they are capable of.

The biggest issue was that we didn't even have the best players available on the pitch.
trap throughout his Irish stint has alienated some of our best players in favour of lesser players.
And to counter the usual arguement coming down the track, nowhere have I stated that our best players are world class, but at least they are better than the muppets that took their places.

And for anyone that complains that our expectations were too high.
I will just answer we were paying our manager one of the highest salaries in international football.

It appears nowadays that we have a mindset in Ireland (politics, business, public service and now sport) that it is ok to pay some of the highest salaries in the world and get feckless incompetence in return.

And trap was incompetent from the very moment he refused to go watch Irish players play live rather than send his scouts or just wacth DVDs.

So incompetent that he got us two second placed finishes when we hadn't finished second in the three previous campaigns.

So incompetent that he became only the third man to get us to a major championship.

The "11 best players" is very subjective. Is Hoolahan one of our best players? For my money yes but he is hardly a world beater. The fella struggles to get into the Norwich team. He was hardly on anyone's radar up to the last 2-3 years and yet he's 31.

McLean was everyone's best player 18 months ago. Is he now? Debatable. Sunderland offloaded him to the Championship so clearly he isn't rated massively in England.

Andy Reid was also touted as one of our best. He's playing with Forest for f**k sake. Flopped big time at Spurs and wasn't great at Sunderland.

You can't say that the manager is to be judged on putting the best 11 players on the pitch because that's too subjective. Also, managers tend to have loyalty to a system and use that as their starting point and fit what they think are the best players into it. Trap didn't have room in his system for a Hoolahan type player really. Again, his system shouldn't have come as a major suprise.

A manager can only be judged on results. If you want a style of play that's pleasing on the eye then hire a manager with a history of playing that sort of football. Managers very rarely have a road to Damascus moment and change from Wimbledon tactics to Barcelona.

So if you're judging on results, Trap did a very good job for 4 years and has been poor for the last 12 or so.

DeanAustin

YayaBanana wrote: »

I'm not his biggest fan but Its not fair to blame Trap for the Euros, in our group we came up against 2 of the eventual finalists and a very good Croatian side, our performances were very very poor but the group we got gave us no chance.

True but I do firmly believe that while bottom was where we were destined to finish, we should have been better than we were.

Nesta99

If as as rumoured that Trap takes over Libya thats the end of Eamonn Zayed's international career....

RoryMac

YayaBanana wrote: »

I'm not his biggest fan but Its not fair to blame Trap for the Euros, in our group we came up against 2 of the eventual finalists and a very good Croatian side, our performances were very very poor but the group we got gave us no chance.

It was the manner of the defeats that p!ssed me off at the Euros. We stuck to the same game plan & same players throughout. To have any chance against quality teams you need to come up with a strategy to beat them or at least give them something to worry about, we stuck to the exact same game plan & players as we had in the last year.

I expected to finish bottom of our group and probably even with 0 points but I had expected us to put up a fight.

Of course not all of that was Trap's fault but to stick with the same gameplan & players for 3 games when it was plainly not working should have cost him his job after the Euro's imo.

jmayo

DeanAustin wrote: »

So incompetent that he got us two second placed finishes when we hadn't finished second in the three previous campaigns.

So incompetent that he became only the third man to get us to a major championship.

Ehh are you seriously claimning that being better than steve staunton or even Brian Kerr is a major achievement ?

In the past we finished second in groups and lost playoffs to Holland, Turkey, Belgium and won against Iran.
Granted he lost one to a French team through downright cheating.
Saying that, it was a pi** poor French team as was shown at the WC.
And the one playoff he won was, for jaysus sake, against Estonia.

We were extermly luckly to have gotten a point out of Moscow and it wasn't down to trap, but some fearsome committed never say die attitude of a few players.
That luckly result helped us get through.

DeanAustin wrote: »

The "11 best players" is very subjective. Is Hoolahan one of our best players? For my money yes but he is hardly a world beater. The fella struggles to get into the Norwich team. He was hardly on anyone's radar up to the last 2-3 years and yet he's 31.

McLean was everyone's best player 18 months ago. Is he now? Debatable. Sunderland offloaded him to the Championship so clearly he isn't rated massively in England.

Andy Reid was also touted as one of our best. He's playing with Forest for f**k sake. Flopped big time at Spurs and wasn't great at Sunderland.

What about how long he kept Seamus Coleman out of the team ?
What about James McCarthy ?
He only brought them into the team when he forced to by injuiries to his usuals.
What about his treatment of Darren Gibson, Steven Reid, Shane Long, etc ?

DeanAustin wrote: »

You can't say that the manager is to be judged on putting the best 11 players on the pitch because that's too subjective. Also, managers tend to have loyalty to a system and use that as their starting point and fit what they think are the best players into it. Trap didn't have room in his system for a Hoolahan type player really. Again, his system shouldn't have come as a major suprise.

A manager can only be judged on results. If you want a style of play that's pleasing on the eye then hire a manager with a history of playing that sort of football. Managers very rarely have a road to Damascus moment and change from Wimbledon tactics to Barcelona.

Are you telling me trap played the same negative type of football he inflicted on us with any of the other teams he managed, including his stint in Austria ?
He did have tactics years ago, otherwise there is no bloody way he would have achieved so much with so many big clubs.
And yes we know some of those teams had massive world class stars.

Somewhere between Turin/Milan or even Salzburg and Dublin he decided our players couldn't not alone play like Wimbledon nevermind Barca.
He admitted as much and his constant denograting of the players was shameful.
Wimbledon appeared polished and pusposeful in comparison to some of the stuff we played.

It is sad that such a previous great football man would resort to such awful tactics and sometimes appear so arrogant and dismissive.

tupac_healy

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh are you seriously claimning that being better than steve staunton or even Brian Kerr is a major achievement ?

In the past we finished second in groups and lost playoffs to Holland, Turkey, Belgium and won against Iran.
Granted he lost one to a French team through downright cheating.
Saying that, it was a pi** poor French team as was shown at the WC.
And the one playoff he won was, for jaysus sake, against Estonia.

We were extermly luckly to have gotten a point out of Moscow and it wasn't down to trap, but some fearsome committed never say die attitude of a few players.
That luckly result helped us get through.



What about how long he kept Seamus Coleman out of the team ?
What about James McCarthy ?
He only brought them into the team when he forced to by injuiries to his usuals.
What about his treatment of Darren Gibson, Steven Reid, Shane Long, etc ?



Are you telling me trap played the same negative type of football he inflicted on us with any of the other teams he managed, including his stint in Austria ?
He did have tactics years ago, otherwise there is no bloody way he would have achieved so much with so many big clubs.
And yes we know some of those teams had massive world class stars.

Somewhere between Turin/Milan or even Salzburg and Dublin he decided our players couldn't not alone play like Wimbledon nevermind Barca.
He admitted as much and his constant denograting of the players was shameful.
Wimbledon appeared polished and pusposeful in comparison to some of the stuff we played.

It is sad that such a previous great football man would resort to such awful tactics and sometimes appear so arrogant and dismissive.

just to even further your point, Kerr has a better win % than Trapp

Son Of A Vidic

DeanAustin wrote: »

Would love to live in your simplistic little world.

Simplifying what's not complicated, I like most people just call it cop on.

DeanAustin

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh are you seriously claimning that being better than steve staunton or even Brian Kerr is a major achievement ?

In the past we finished second in groups and lost playoffs to Holland, Turkey, Belgium and won against Iran.
Granted he lost one to a French team through downright cheating.
Saying that, it was a pi** poor French team as was shown at the WC.
And the one playoff he won was, for jaysus sake, against Estonia.

We were extermly luckly to have gotten a point out of Moscow and it wasn't down to trap, but some fearsome committed never say die attitude of a few players.
That luckly result helped us get through.



What about how long he kept Seamus Coleman out of the team ?
What about James McCarthy ?
He only brought them into the team when he forced to by injuiries to his usuals.
What about his treatment of Darren Gibson, Steven Reid, Shane Long, etc ?



Are you telling me trap played the same negative type of football he inflicted on us with any of the other teams he managed, including his stint in Austria ?
He did have tactics years ago, otherwise there is no bloody way he would have achieved so much with so many big clubs.
And yes we know some of those teams had massive world class stars.

Somewhere between Turin/Milan or even Salzburg and Dublin he decided our players couldn't not alone play like Wimbledon nevermind Barca.
He admitted as much and his constant denograting of the players was shameful.
Wimbledon appeared polished and pusposeful in comparison to some of the stuff we played.

It is sad that such a previous great football man would resort to such awful tactics and sometimes appear so arrogant and dismissive.

I'm not saying that being better than Stan is a great achievement. I'm saying that achieving something that only two of your predecessors have done (in 80 years) is pretty good going. I'm saying that doing it with a weaker side than your 4 or 5 immediate predecessors is a decent achievement.

In relation to Coleman, would I have had him in? Yes. Was he great for Everton last season? Not really. Struggled to get in at times. The season before that he was struggling a bit too if I remember correctly. John O'Shea was playing right back for Ireland. I know it's fashionable to slag O'Shea but he's a man with experience of winning trophies at the highest level so was arguably a better option than Coleman.

Personally, I'd have had Saint Ledger out and Coleman in and played O'Shea at centre back. But the back four Trap brought to the Euros had done very well together and it's not a dumb decision to keep a unit like that together. Jack played Mick McCarthy over Dave O'Leary. O'Leary was a far better footballer but the partnership of McCarthy and Moran was fearsome and very effective.

I'd have had James McCarthy in too but Whelan and Andrews had done reasonably well together and fit the system pretty well up to the Euros. McCarthy is also not a world beater and his performances in the last two games were pretty poor.

Shane Long has spoken well of Trap, Stephen Reid spent a lot of time injured but I agree that too many arguments with players happened in Trap's time for him not to be culpable there. That said, Fergie and Mourinho have also fallen out with players over the years. It does happen.

I would suggest that he's always been defensive minded. That was a discussion point at the time of his appointment. He didn't go from great, passing attacking football to being defensive with Ireland. He was always a manager who built his teams on a strong defence.

DeanAustin

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Simplifying what's not complicated, I like most people just call it cop on.

One man's cop on is another man's snide and nasty little comment.

listermint

DeanAustin wrote: »

I would suggest that he's always thought irish players were just plain useless.

FYP.


that was traps mentality.

DeanAustin

listermint wrote: »

FYP.


that was traps mentality.

Don't think so. He thought they were very limited. He wouldn't have taken the job if he thought they were plain useless.

In fairness, he's right, a lot of our players are limited. Don't get me wrong, I think his tactics were too rigid and too defensive but he's a guy who has won everything in the game and we are a bunch of keyboard warriors.

weldoninhio

DeanAustin wrote: »

Don't think so. He thought they were very limited. He wouldn't have taken the job if he thought they were plain useless.

In fairness, he's right, a lot of our players are limited. Don't get me wrong, I think his tactics were too rigid and too defensive but he's a guy who has won everything in the game and we are a bunch of keyboard warriors.

I was able to run 100m in 13 seconds 15 years ago, nowadays no-ones gonna be asking me for sprint tips. He won lot of trophies 20 years ago. Counts for nothing nowadays.

DeanAustin

weldoninhio wrote: »

I was able to run 100m in 13 seconds 15 years ago, nowadays no-ones gonna be asking me for sprint tips. He won lot of trophies 20 years ago. Counts for nothing nowadays.

Not the best analogy but my point was that he's likely to know more about the game than the likes of me and you.

deadeye187

Trap was a old man who was playing old style football. Sure we got to euro 2012. But how strong was our qualifying group, Russia the winners of the group finished 3rd in their group at the euros, I think says alot.



Neil Lennon only man for the job!

noodler

deadeye187 wrote: »

But how strong was our qualifying group, Russia the winners of the group finished 3rd in their group at the euros, I think says alot.

No.