Burton: Country in 'recovery mode' following dramatic fall on Live Register

AlmightyCushion

tfromkerry wrote: »

You can play away with number,s all you like , but if 12.8% = 282,900 of unemployed people from our work force of 2,182,100 well then that's also wrong as 12% of 2,182,100 is 261852 . And saying 282,900 is right then 10% of people unemployed 221,015 which is only 40,000 and not 60,000 and over 2+ years is 20,000 a year off the live register , how many of them will be in full paid employment

And i am still asking where is kenny,s 100,000 Jobs

12.8% of 2,182,100 is 279,309. The .8 makes a big difference. The reason the number they quote is higher is probably because they are rounding it. 10% of 2,182,100 is 218,210. That would be an increase in employment of 61,099. Not the 8,000 you claimed earlier or the 40,000 you claimed just there. Add this to the already created jobs and it's well above 100,000 FG said they would create. Whether they are able to actually do it is another story but it looks to me they are on track so far.

AlmightyCushion

tfromkerry wrote: »

No need to feel embarrassed for me at all .

And i get it , that's the problem even with 58000 "net jobs" they still have a massive short fall .

What are they doing with all the money they have ear marked for job creation , i doubt they are creating 20,000 paid jobs a year

We can't expect to just jump to full employment in a short period of time. The amount of people employed increased by 58,000 up 3.2%. While this doesn't mean that we are out of the mess and everything is now rosy, it is a positive development and much better than what we had before where employment was declining or stagnant. The good thing is that this should have knock on effects (just like how increasing unemployment has a knock on effect) where these newly employed people now have more money to spend and this creates more jobs.

ezra_pound

tfromkerry wrote: »

No need to feel embarrassed for me at all .

And i get it , that's the problem even with 58000 "net jobs" they still have a massive short fall .

What are they doing with all the money they have ear marked for job creation , i doubt they are creating 20,000 paid jobs a year

But you clearly DID NOT GET IT.

You just keep it coming... Yes the 58000 jobs are PAID??? and... 58000 > 20000 by the way.

ezra_pound

tfromkerry wrote: »

I have not read that report , have you a link for it . And people are forgetting also that we are still losing our jobs here in Ireland

And keep in mind 1,700 Irish people leaving every week , which adjusts the % lovely for any government on election mode . say the last 1/4 some 20,000 people left and give another 5000 non Irish thats 25000 easily . take that over the course of the year its a 100,000 people and with 58,000 jobs created that in its self is a short fall of 42,000

Ask yourself s of them 58,000 jobs , how many did the government actually create as apposed to jobs been left vacant by some off the 100,000 that left.

It easy to come and and give reports about this that and which ever , but why cant they come and and give a detailed account of the Irish employment sector and labour force and from that real figures can be taken

NET JOBS. DID U GET IT? DID U?

tfromkerry

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

12.8% of 2,182,100 is 279,309. The .8 makes a big difference. The reason the number they quote is higher is probably because they are rounding it. 10% of 2,182,100 is 218,210. That would be an increase in employment of 61,099. Not the 8,000 you claimed earlier or the 40,000 you claimed just there. Add this to the already created jobs and it's well above 100,000 FG said they would create. Whether they are able to actually do it is another story but it looks to me they are on track so far.

Again figure,s dont tell the full story , of them numbers your stating how many are full paid jobs

Also since feb 2011 which is 33 months or so, and 12+billion adjusted in our budget the difference is in feb 2011 there was 439,571 people on the live register and in nov 2013 there are 282,900 the difference been 156671 .

There are at least 125,000 on fas/solas etc i understand you would have a % of these people on them schemes any ways but figure say increase,s of a good 15% each year . saying that say 60,000 wouldn't normal be on them . And anyone out there like to take a guess at the amount of people who left Ireland . will we say 300,000 over the 3 year,s or so .

So the difference is 156k and with easily 350/400k people heading off / returning to education / solas / free labour and the likes,

How many jobs have they created with our billions

And how would we look today if 350/400k people didn't go home or back to education or take up free labour . What would our unemployment record be and how would our nation look then . And with the 12+billions taken from the budgets in cuts and government spending. Howis it then we are still in the state we are in

ezra_pound

tfromkerry wrote: »

I don't think they are , and sick of people defending them .

Get them creating real proper jobs and then i will defend them , but all they are doing is releasing these false figure,s to look good . FACT there are well over 420,000 people still unemployed today in Ireland . That is a big problem in my eyes and if that is there " really great " way of sorting out our country well then we are in big big trouble and that's not conjecture .

Well I'm not surprised to be honest that you are unable to grasp the mess that this country has nearly come out of thanks to the current government. It is remarkable that the country has improved so much since Enda came in. I mean really remarkable. If you can't do basic percentages and you can't grasp that then really you're better off not forming your own political or economic opinions for your own good and the good of others.

I fear to think of what monkies are going to be voted in next but hey that's democracy I guess.

tfromkerry

ezra_pound wrote: »

NET JOBS. DID U GET IT? DID U?

NET JOBS TO THE GOVERNMENT MAY MEAN ANYTHING FROM , INTERNSHIPS , JOB BRIDGE , WWP1 ,WWP2 TO SOME FAS/SOLAS COURSE,S

I AM TALKING ABOUT PAID JOBS , A JOB WERE THE EMPLOYEE GETS A WEEKLY/ FORTNIGHTLY OR MONTHLY WAGE FOR THERE TIME AND EFFORTS

Not so sure why you needed to stated your last comments in caps :mad::mad:

tfromkerry

ezra_pound wrote: »

Well I'm not surprised to be honest that you are unable to grasp the mess that this country has nearly come out of thanks to the current government. It is remarkable that the country has improved so much since Enda came in. I mean really remarkable. If you can't do basic percentages and you can't grasp that then really you're better off not forming your own political or economic opinions for your own good and the good of others.

I fear to think of what monkies are going to be voted in next but hey that's democracy I guess.

Excuse me who the hell do you think you are , I can and will form my own political and economic opinions .:mad::mad:

How remarkable has it improved

And as for basic % , yes i can do them , and if you see your only way to win an argument is to insult somebody well then :P:P to you

ezra_pound

tfromkerry wrote: »

NET JOBS TO THE GOVERNMENT MAY MEAN ANYTHING FROM , INTERNSHIPS , JOB BRIDGE , WWP1 ,WWP2 TO SOME FAS/SOLAS COURSE,S

I AM TALKING ABOUT PAID JOBS , A JOB WERE THE EMPLOYEE GETS A WEEKLY/ FORTNIGHTLY OR MONTHLY WAGE FOR THERE TIME AND EFFORTS

Not so sure why you needed to stated your last comments in caps :mad::mad:

Yes. These jobs are real jobs. They're paid. They are not jobbridge or whatever.

tfromkerry

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yes. These jobs are real jobs. They're paid. They are not jobbridge or whatever.

Well i hope we keep getting paid jobs created up until 2016 , And then boot them out . Kenny one of the worst leader,s we ever had and that,s bad as cowen was before him .

Roll on 2016 and new government , policies and agendas and get back our people our power and our nation :D:D

ezra_pound

tfromkerry wrote: »

Excuse me who the hell do you think you are , I can and will form my own political and economic opinions .:mad::mad:

How remarkable has it improved

And as for basic % , yes i can do them , and if you see your only way to win an argument is to insult somebody well then :P:P to you

Can you not remember when bond yields were over 11%? Or our current deficit was over 30% of GDP? We still did not know for sure the full extent of the hit our banks would have to take. Unemployment was exploding and while all this was going on we were being governed by a bunch of buffoons. It was only like 2 years ago?

Not only did they introduce property tax, turn unemployment around, bring in public sector reform and fix up our finances in a couple of budgets but they did it without major strikes and public disorder.

tfromkerry

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

We can't expect to just jump to full employment in a short period of time. The amount of people employed increased by 58,000 up 3.2%. While this doesn't mean that we are out of the mess and everything is now rosy, it is a positive development and much better than what we had before where employment was declining or stagnant. The good thing is that this should have knock on effects (just like how increasing unemployment has a knock on effect) where these newly employed people now have more money to spend and this creates more jobs.

We have had 33 months , not exactly been a rush job has it :eek: . and of course it has to been seen as a positive . Any one know how much of an outside influence eg EU US in creating these jobs . My points are that we dont have the full facts . And we need to take everything into account when making judgement on this government . And you talk about knock on effects , all this has come about because of the direct knock on effect of 350/400k people leaving /placements etc .

Its natural that a recession ends , they start they finish . But surly we cant give Kenny and co the praise for this . what we need to do it judge them on what they did the the people of this country young and old when we were on our knees :mad::mad::mad:

ezra_pound

tfromkerry wrote: »

We have had 33 months , not exactly been a rush job has it :eek: . and of course it has to been seen as a positive . Any one know how much of an outside influence eg EU US in creating these jobs . My points are that we dont have the full facts . And we need to take everything into account when making judgement on this government . And you talk about knock on effects , all this has come about because of the direct knock on effect of 350/400k people leaving /placements etc .

Its natural that a recession ends , they start they finish . But surly we cant give Kenny and co the praise for this . what we need to do it judge them on what they did the the people of this country young and old when we were on our knees :mad::mad::mad:

What did they do to us when we were on our knees,

Oh ignorant master of rhetoric and misinformation?

Count Dooku

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/burton-country-in-recovery-mode-following-dramatic-fall-on-live-register-606622.html

Is there more figure massaging going on here ?

Yes

Persons participating in Activation Programmes are not included in the
Live Register count.

i.e. more people in SlaveBridge

tfromkerry

ezra_pound wrote: »

What did they do to us when we were on our knees,

Oh ignorant master of rhetoric and misinformation?

:D I like the master part .. say it again

Well your more than likely to view or progression on just a financial aspect .
However i am more opened minded than that .

FG/lab failed us in Education some of the biggest classes and worst school,s in Europe also the dearest free education me hol@ .

They failed us in our health system in the way they run it and have tried to reformed it .

They have left our towns and villages up and down the country become ghost towns and some in ruin

The state of our roads

Widen the gap between rich and poor ,to suit to rich . Irish people have never been a poorer .

Figure has stated poverty has increased by over 60,000 .
Homelessness has increases by 15% 20% fouced Ireland .
mental health , what have they done to put in place to try and prevent our young people from taking there own live,s and what have they done to put in place measure,s to help people in substance abuse,s drink drugs etc .

They have not done anything reform the political system ( o yea held a vote on the senate )

I can go on and on and on

But sure as long as Kenny repaided the Germans the billions they should has lost who care about the health and well being of the ordinary irish man ,woman or child

ressem

tfromkerry wrote: »

FG/lab failed us in Education some of the biggest classes and worst school,s in Europe also the dearest free education me hol@ .

That's the old question, should wages of existing employees be cut to keep recruitment and service quality up. The vast majority of employees say no.

They failed us in our health system in the way they run it and have tried to reformed it .

With 2 relatives in James' at the moment I am not seeing this. The costs are all over the place but they aren't slashing and burning.
Some might say that they are now too strict. If they give into a patients request to sleep on the floor (seems to be requested fairly commonly ), HIQA will reprimand the institution for each nightly occurrence.
And buying generics and rejecting the codswallop from the pharma industry is a positive.

They have left our towns and villages up and down the country become ghost towns and some in ruin

Is that more to do with local government, high rent to pay of stupid old borrowings, banks, over the top new accountancy rules and just low footfall.

The state of our roads

That fixmystreet.ie website for reporting potholes does seem to encourage councils to get work carried out.

Widen the gap between rich and poor ,to suit to rich . Irish people have never been a poor .

Never been as poor? Absolutely wrong. Never as much debt perhaps but that's an enormously different problem.
You're not having to send your children away to act as minders for elderly relatives because you can't afford to feed them.

Figure has stated poverty has increased by over 60,000.

With an income under dole levels, I'm technically part of the poverty group despite working. Still better off than in earlier decades so far, provided I don't get sick.

Homelessness has increases by 15% 20% fouced Ireland .
mental health , what have they done to put in place to try and prevent our young people from taking there own live,s and what have they done to put in place measure,s to help people in substance abuse,s drink drugs etc .

Many of the people most at risk resent any 'nagging' by governments, doctors etc. If you avoid places that serve alcohol then one can find oneself pretty bloody socially isolated.
So what can government do about that? Reduce the cost of insuring and licensing events so they weren't as difficult to finance is the best I can come up with.

They have not done anything to reform the political system ( o yea held a vote on the senate )

I'll accept that.

Sheldons Brain

That's the old question, should wages of existing employees be cut to keep recruitment and service quality up. The vast majority of employees say no.

That didn't stop them cutting them. It is the business of all citizens to fund services, not just those who work in them.

As for the welcome increase in jobs, this is more due to the pendulum swinging in the other direction than anything done by the government.

tfromkerry

What about waiting lists and closures



Local governments get there monies and are more or less told how to spend it from National government



Need we relie a website


Poor the to extent as most average paid workers are in the red at the end of the month , and we still have water rate and higher taxes to come in next year .



Providing you dont get sick , what if you do .


They can try and educate our kids before they start taking drink and drugs . and for the people who its too late , there is no care units or proper after care it,s mostly volunteer work that helps

jank

I was back in Ireland there for a few weeks only last week. I noticed there was a better vibe around the area and much more traffic than last time I was around a year ago. Hearing from people on the ground as well that things are on the up. The worst looks to be behind us. Still need to slash the PS and entitlements however.

Good loser

tfromkerry wrote: »

We have had 33 months , not exactly been a rush job has it :eek: . and of course it has to been seen as a positive . Any one know how much of an outside influence eg EU US in creating these jobs . My points are that we dont have the full facts . And we need to take everything into account when making judgement on this government . And you talk about knock on effects , all this has come about because of the direct knock on effect of 350/400k people leaving /placements etc .

Its natural that a recession ends , they start they finish . But surly we cant give Kenny and co the praise for this . what we need to do it judge them on what they did the the people of this country young and old when we were on our knees :mad::mad::mad:

If you 'dont have the full facts' how can you condemn Kenny and the Government?

Your logic is no better than your maths.

creedp

jank wrote: »

I was back in Ireland there for a few weeks only last week. I noticed there was a better vibe around the area and much more traffic than last time I was around a year ago. Hearing from people on the ground as well that things are on the up. The worst looks to be behind us. Still need to slash the PS and entitlements however.

Sorry for the nit picking but did you also come to the opinion on the underlined bit above from the vibe around the area

jank

creedp wrote: »

Sorry for the nit picking but did you also come to the opinion on the underlined bit above from the vibe around the area

No, that opinion is formed by the state being effectively bankrupt yet have one of the highest PS pay in the OECD AND my own personal experience with gross inefficiencies in the PS

hotbabe1992

Yes. These jobs are real jobs. They're paid. They are not jobbridge or whatever.

Show me concrete evidence these are not job bridge ''jobs'',job bridge actually is responsible for increasing actual unemployment,while massaging figures and making it seem like that unemployment is going down..

Not only that job bridge takes away what paid jobs could have been on the market.Think about it what employer is going to turn around and hire you and pay you with the option of job bridge in the way?

ressem

It looks like a lot are self-employed jobs (30,000 increase) which may be on the unemployment to self-employment program which allows a phased decrease from benefits over two years.

I guess that the best way to tell will be how the budgets for various social welfare programs move around.

hungry hippo 4

Its incredible, only on this site do you meet people who defend the government and act as if we are obliged to struggle on for the good of the economy.

Id love to meet you!

jank

I think it depends on what you mean what we are defending the government from. For many there is Joe Duffy!

Godge

jank wrote: »

No, that opinion is formed by the state being effectively bankrupt yet have one of the highest PS pay in the OECD AND my own personal experience with gross inefficiencies in the PS

What statistics are you relying on for the OECD statement? Given that pay was cut again in 2013, I assume you have a link to statistics based on the latest cuts?

What personal experiences are you talking about?

jank wrote: »

I was back in Ireland there for a few weeks only last week. I noticed there was a better vibe around the area and much more traffic than last time I was around a year ago. Hearing from people on the ground as well that things are on the up. The worst looks to be behind us. Still need to slash the PS and entitlements however.

A few weeks is not enough time to gain a view about either the PS or entitlements.

chopper6

jank wrote: »

No, that opinion is formed by the state being effectively bankrupt yet have one of the highest PS pay in the OECD AND my own personal experience with gross inefficiencies in the PS

Why dont you come back to Ireland and lead the next government?

You're obviously a financial visionary of some magnitude.

Phoebas

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

Its incredible, only on this site do you meet people who defend the government and act as if we are obliged to struggle on for the good of the economy.

Id love to meet you!

Well most voters did vote for the Government parties and do depend on the good of the economy, so I'm surprised you haven't met any of these people.

Idbatterim

Its incredible, only on this site do you meet people who defend the government and act as if we are obliged to struggle on for the good of the economy.

Id love to meet you!

this site also has a large cohort of those who believe that others owe them a living...

hungry hippo 4

People voted for a government who lied there way in.

antoobrien

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

People voted for a government who lied there way in.

Anyone who thinks that the government lied, rather than being extremely naive in their promises (e.g. burning bondholders was never on, so the anglo promise was particularly foolish), deserves the disappointment they are experiencing.

I thought this recession might bring a dose of economic reality to the country, it appears that it has not.

hungry hippo 4

antoobrien wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that the government lied, rather than being extremely naive in their promises (e.g. burning bondholders was never on, so the anglo promise was particularly foolish), deserves the disappointment they are experiencing.

I thought this recession might bring a dose of economic reality to the country, it appears that it has not.

some people have remained completely unaffected by the recession. Id say that is where a lot of peoples annoyance lies.

antoobrien

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

some people have remained completely unaffected by the recession. Id say that is where a lot of peoples annoyance lies.

I'll freely admit that I'm one of the people that has not been affected noticeably in that my salary hasn't changed (and I haven't lost my job), my credit rating hasn't changed, my pesnion pot is back to where it was before the crash and my spending patterns haven't changed (that I've noticed). That said I know a lot of people who have been negatively affected.

However all that has nothing to do with the point that anybody who believed all the contradictory (in some cases mutually exclusive) policies proposed by the two likely government parties, could be implemented at all let alone immediately need to get a grip on reality.

Godge

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

some people have remained completely unaffected by the recession. Id say that is where a lot of peoples annoyance lies.

apart from public servants, to whom has the government broken any promises on recession effects?

noodler

Godge wrote: »

apart from public servants, to whom has the government broken any promises on recession effects?

Bondholder burning.

Private sector pension levy.

Roscommon hospital's emergency department.

Semi-State Asset sales.

Child Benefit cuts.

Cancellation of existing upard only rental contracts.



I am sure there are more - by the way it wasn't FG and Labour who signed the Croke Park agreement, was it?

hotbabe1992

I thought this recession might bring a dose of economic reality to the country, it appears that it has not.

It has brought a dose of economic misery for a lot of working and middle income earners,but not for the political and millionaire no taxes for me elite..

Bono pay up.

everdead.ie

hotbabe1992 wrote: »

It has brought a dose of economic misery for a lot of working and middle income earners,but not for the political and millionaire no taxes for me elite..

Bono pay up.

The high earners pay an awful lot of tax on earnings in fairness.

What U2 do is completly different they have royalty payments paid in another country so they don't pay tax here but there is nothing we can do about that.

hotbabe1992

Bono is around dublin he uses our roads,drives cars on our roads,enjoys ireland services and more importantly lives here,he should pay his taxes to his country..

What he is doing is a cop out..


Artist taxes should be introduced too so people like him dont get off scott free in this recession we need all the help we can get..

Call it charity for the fellow irish man/woman/child.


He should do his duty too.

ezra_pound

noodler wrote: »

Bondholder burning.

Private sector pension levy.

Roscommon hospital's emergency department.

Semi-State Asset sales.

Child Benefit cuts.

Cancellation of existing upard only rental contracts.



I am sure there are more - by the way it wasn't FG and Labour who signed the Croke Park agreement, was it?

I remember well Enda before the election going around with bongos and a long beard chanting burn the bondholders... No wait that wasn't Enda kenny.

jank

Godge wrote: »

What statistics are you relying on for the OECD statement? Given that pay was cut again in 2013, I assume you have a link to statistics based on the latest cuts?

What personal experiences are you talking about?

Gold plated PS pensions for example. The government pension scheme for the PS would be bankrupt and forced to close due to its future liabilities if it were a private pension. One rule for private pension yet the same rules don't apply for the PS.

The PS is still overpaid for the work they do.
http://trueeconomicslr.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/overpaid-public-sector-in-ireland.html

I have had personal experience with certain departments including semi-states where productivity is grossly what it should be. The thing is, it is not the average PS workers fault for this, it is management and union interference that is the cause for not getting a synergy of effort and ideas where greater results could be reached. I would say that the majority of the PS workers would like to get rid of the deadwood wasters, take off the handcuffs and get actually work done. But if that were to happen it would be found that the place would be grossly over staffed thus people would be fired. Instead people work half a day and fart about the other half.

I am not talking about front line here, I am talking about the civil service and administrative staff in places like HR in the HSE and so on. Then actual money could be put into resources for front line services and the tax payer could get value for money. Nobody in their right mind thinks that the PS represents value for money at the moment.

Sheldons Brain

The PS is still overpaid for the work they do.
http://trueeconomicslr.blogspot.com....n-ireland.html

Posting a link to 2009 blog in support of a sentence in the present tense and as a response to another poster asking for 2013 stats is not in any sense a serious contribution. And as the date is clearly written at the top you can hardly have been unaware of this, so presumably you do not intend to make a serious contribution, but just an opportunity to rant about "deadwood wasters".

jank

So tell me, how are those PS reforms going?

clairefontaine

With one person emmigrating every six minutes, it's no surprise the live register numbers are dropping, however that is not a sign of recovery,but of utter failure.

sandin

clairefontaine wrote: »

With one person emmigrating every six minutes, it's no surprise the live register numbers are dropping, however that is not a sign of recovery,but of utter failure.

In the economic boom years, an average of 32,000 Irish people emigrated each year. The figure for Irish people has risen to just under 40,000 / year in the past few years. Not a huge increase at all. Also natural population growth and continuing immigration into Ireland increases the NET workforce by about 30,,000 a year after emigration figures are taken into account.

The only figure I look at is the net employment report which gives the total number of people in fill time employment - that has been increasing at a quicker rate recently and that is proof of real growth. In my business turnover is up almost 10% year on year and we've added new permanent full time staff too this year.

Godge

jank wrote: »

Gold plated PS pensions for example. The government pension scheme for the PS would be bankrupt and forced to close due to its future liabilities if it were a private pension. One rule for private pension yet the same rules don't apply for the PS.

A new ill-informed pronouncement. What evidence do you have for the public service pension liability (given that there has been no official research since 2008 which is now completely out of date given the stupid assumptions it contained.)

jank wrote: »

The PS is still overpaid for the work they do.
http://trueeconomicslr.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/overpaid-public-sector-in-ireland.html

A 2009 ill-informed blog rant. Can I remind you what I asked for?

Godge wrote: »

What statistics are you relying on for the OECD statement? Given that pay was cut again in 2013, I assume you have a link to statistics based on the latest cuts?

Yes, I asked for some 2013 information, and yes some official OECD 2013 information as that is what you alluded to when you first posted. Not able to find it? I am not surprised.

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

Yes, I asked for some 2013 information, and yes some official OECD 2013 information as that is what you alluded to when you first posted. Not able to find it? I am not surprised.

Considering we are still in 2013, how likely is it that the OECD will have official information regarding a year that has yet to pass?

chopper6

jank wrote: »

So tell me, how are those PS reforms going?

Very well according to the Govt at the last budget...what's it got to do with you?

jank

chopper6 wrote: »

Very well according to the Govt at the last budget...what's it got to do with you?

As a tax payer (yes even in Australia I pay Irish tax on some income) I think one has the right to question the value for money one gets with the PS. Especially when we have no choice other than jail to pay it.

Can you state what actual reforms have been carried out?

jank

sarumite wrote: »

Considering we are still in 2013, how likely is it that the OECD will have official information regarding a year that has yet to pass?

This is the PS we are talking about, they probably have 'official' stats ready for Q1 2014. Has the department of finance ever forecasted a budget correctly for example?