Rory McIlroy - 4 Time Major Winner

yaboya1

Benny Cake wrote: »

I reckon for Garcia to win one it will have to land in his lap, similar to the way Ells won the British Open after Adam Scotts capitulation. On the basis that Garcia contends on a consistent basis you can't rule him out altogether...

That's exactly what I think. In the clubhouse before he has the chance to mess it up himself.

Russman

I think sometimes people don't realise just how hard it is to win a major (or any tournament at the top level). There have been very, very few players, if any, who could play well "on demand". Golf is odd in that you can have the best preparation, feel great and still go out and hit it sideways for no apparent reason. Likewise you can feel like sh1t, be stiff and sore and shoot a great number when you least expect it. There's a massive, massive amount of luck involved in any win, sometimes in round one when nobody sees it, sometimes a lucky break on the 18th in round four.

Yes, Sergio has let a few slip, no argument there, but sometimes someone just plays better on the day. I think he'll win one sometime, hopefully an Open but maybe a US Open where driving is at a premium. I reckon he has a better chance than a lot of the usual suspects that are trotted out.

There's too much talk IMHO about choking etc., like it's some sort of slight on a players character. I remember Duval was asked one time about hitting it in the water on the 13th at Augusta in the final round and I like his response, along the lines of "I just hit a bad shot with a 5 iron, it happens".

GreeBo

yaboya1 wrote: »

McIlroy is 25 and has already WON four Majors.
Nicklaus was 2nd in 19, but he WON 18.

How many has Garcia won again?
I never said he wasn't a good player. I just think he chokes in Majors when he's in contention, which the facts seem to back up. I would say Nicklaus managed to come 2nd/contend in a lot of majors when he was playing nowhere near his best. I read that he's quoted as saying he only played his best in four of the eighteen he won.

So if nicklaus can win them without playing his best, doesn't that go a long way to showing that it's not necessarily the best golfer on the day who wins?

Also if it's just down to mental strength at that level, surely Jack would have converted a few more out of that 19?

There is way more involved in winning a major. The facts would show that 99% off players come when in contention, after all, only one guy wins. By your argument anyone who has a chance or multiple chances and didn't win is a choker. I think it's far more complicated and subtle than that.
Is Monty a choker? How about Norman?

aveytare

Didn't realise Nicklaus was second in 19, that's amazing really.

Ormus

yaboya1 wrote: »

I don't think Garcia will ever win one because I feel he lacks the mental fortitude required. I am not saying there are other 34yo+ golfers more likely to win one.

Would love to hear your two though.....

Stenson and Kuchar.

Trampas

When woods was cleaning up apart from him been good most of the field rolled over for him and never challenged him.

That's not happening now.

How many had a chance in jacks day?

The number of golfers who are capable of winning nowadays is higher so beating woods or jacks record is harder.

It's only a number but in reality it's like apples and oranges.

On Rory's swing his extension on his back swing is huge. What angle does his hips go to? He can't do that forever as he's like elastic man in parts of his swing and overtime that will breakdown. When it will break is anyone's guess.

I presume the divorce courts are undated with applications at the moment as men all over the world try and follow in his steps

Tones69

Trampas wrote: »

When woods was cleaning up apart from him been good most of the field rolled over for him and never challenged him.

That's not happening now.

How many had a chance in jacks day?

The number of golfers who are capable of winning nowadays is higher so beating woods or jacks record is harder.

It's only a number but in reality it's like apples and oranges.

On Rory's swing his extension on his back swing is huge. What angle does his hips go to? He can't do that forever as he's like elastic man in parts of his swing and overtime that will breakdown. When it will break is anyone's guess.

I presume the divorce courts are undated with applications at the moment as men all over the world try and follow in his steps

Been saying it ages! Taking nothing away from jack, the mans a lege d. BUT it was diff back then. There were 3 superstars back then. Now theres about 50!!! Jack arnold and gary cleaned house back then. Personally I dont think anyone will ever win that amount of majors again. Id say rory doesnt care about numbers really as what hes doing is very unique and special anyway. If he can win the masters that would be an unbelievable achievement to have the grandslam. Needs nothin more to prove himself

yaboya1

aveytare wrote: »

Didn't realise Nicklaus was second in 19, that's amazing really.

Yeah, 37 top two's in majors. There's a record that definitely won't be beaten.

yaboya1

GreeBo wrote: »

So if nicklaus can win them without playing his best, doesn't that go a long way to showing that it's not necessarily the best golfer on the day who wins?

Yes, it proves that hanging in there and staying in contention when you're not at your best may still see you claim victory. Something I think McIlroy has displayed in his two most recent major wins.

GreeBo wrote: »

Also if it's just down to mental strength at that level, surely Jack would have converted a few more out of that 19?

It's obviously not just down to mental strength, but having the 'been there, done that t-shirt' definitely helps. Would you not agree?

GreeBo wrote: »

There is way more involved in winning a major. The facts would show that 99% off players come when in contention, after all, only one guy wins. By your argument anyone who has a chance or multiple chances and didn't win is a choker. I think it's far more complicated and subtle than that.
Is Monty a choker? How about Norman?

Not everyone who doesn't win when in contention is a choker, but some players seem to play far worse when in that position that it can't be a coincidence.
Monty was almost unbeatable in the Ryder Cup. He was 5 down in the singles on his debut in 1991 and came back to get a half. I think that had a big bearing on his future record in that competition. He never thought he could get beaten after that (and never did in the singles). On the European Tour it wasn't much different. Put him anywhere near the lead and he almost always won. In a major, that never happened. Why? The Masters & Open were never the most suitable events for him the way he played, but the other two US majors were perfect for him (especially the US Open). One of the greatest players in the world at distance control was in the middle of the fairway on the 18th at Winged Foot in 2006, yet left it short in the heavy rough and made a double bogey which didn't even get him into a playoff. The mental side has to play a part. Knowing he'd never won a major and this was probably his best/last chance obviously affected him. In the same situation in a regular European Tour Event/Ryder Cup, he probably makes birdie.
I think Norman is one of the unluckiest golfers alive. Some of the times he got beaten in Majors you'd struggle to make up what actually happened (Larry Mize 1987 in particular). Even with all his bad luck/choking he still won two majors. In saying that though, all his previous failures at the US majors probably did play on his mind on days like Masters Sunday in 1996. Had he previously won that tournament, maybe he goes out shoots 70 and wins comfortably.

Basically I'm saying I definitely think it becomes a factor in a player's mind when they haven't won a certain event(s). Look at Mickelson. He's been 2nd in the US Open six times now. In 2006 he played almost flawless golf for four days. Par to win, bogey for a playoff on 18. Also makes a double after a horrendous drive. Do you not think it was playing on his mind on the tee that he'd never previously won that particular major despite going so close before? In contrast, look at how he plays in The Masters now. He's just so at ease knowing he's a multiple champion.

yaboya1

Tones69 wrote: »

Been saying it ages! Taking nothing away from jack, the mans a lege d. BUT it was diff back then. There were 3 superstars back then. Now theres about 50!!! Jack arnold and gary cleaned house back then. Personally I dont think anyone will ever win that amount of majors again. Id say rory doesnt care about numbers really as what hes doing is very unique and special anyway. If he can win the masters that would be an unbelievable achievement to have the grandslam. Needs nothin more to prove himself

The funny thing about McIlroy is that the Masters always seemed like the major that should suit him the best, and now it's the only one he hasn't bagged. I don't think there's any doubt he'll win it at least once before the end of his career.

rrpc

yaboya1 wrote: »

Basically I'm saying I definitely think it becomes a factor in a player's mind when they haven't won a certain event(s). Look at Mickelson. He's been 2nd in the US Open six times now. In 2006 he played almost flawless golf for four days. Par to win, bogey for a playoff on 18. Also makes a double after a horrendous drive. Do you not think it was playing on his mind on the tee that he'd never previously won that particular major despite going so close before? In contrast, look at how he plays in The Masters now. He's just so at ease knowing he's a multiple champion.

There are a number of factors with the Masters. One is the fact that it (among all the majors) is the only one played on the same course. When you know that course as well as Phil and when good scrambling is so important there, it's no surprise he's won it so many times.

But being able to deal with pressure and play every shot as if it was the tournament in itself is what separates the winners from the losers. All of them try to do this, but as the importance ramps up, so does the pressure and the ability to keep your mind on that one shot is the difference. McIlroy has proven that he can do this, so has Tiger and so has Jack. Jack was a master at putting his opponents under more pressure than himself and apparently it was one of the many gems of wisdom he imparted to Rory.

There was no doubt that the momentum surge by Rory from his birdie on the 7th through the back nine that turned the screws on the guys who were ahead of him on the course and the leaderboard.

GreeBo

I just dont think being in contention and not winning = choker.

Only the player knows if they choked or not, sometimes you just hit a bad shot.
No one remembers the 5 foot putt you missed on the Thursday, everyone remembers the chip on the Sunday evening.
They are both bad shots, not necessarily caused by choking.

yaboya1

GreeBo wrote: »

I just dont think being in contention and not winning = choker.

Only the player knows if they choked or not, sometimes you just hit a bad shot.
No one remembers the 5 foot putt you missed on the Thursday, everyone remembers the chip on the Sunday evening.
They are both bad shots, not necessarily caused by choking.

I agree with this, but sometimes it happens far too often on the Sunday to the same players in the same situation for it to be anything other than that.

Ormus

yaboya1 wrote: »

I agree with this, but sometimes it happens far too often on the Sunday to the same players in the same situation for it to be anything other than that.

Garcia and Westwood hit bad putts every day of the week. They just get far more coverage when it happens on Sunday at a major. And it's happened them more times than other players because they are so consistently in contention on Sunday at majors.

I honestly don't think they've thrown away any majors by choking, as in hitting a 6 iron approach from the fairway into the trees on the 18th, or something along those lines.

rrpc

yaboya1 wrote: »

I agree with this, but sometimes it happens far too often on the Sunday to the same players in the same situation for it to be anything other than that.

I don't think choking is the right word anyway. Choking to me is when a guy (or team) can't take the pressure and actually gives up the fight. Literally throw in the towel and settle for second place or worse.

In other cases, the effect of pressure can just cause too many extraneous thoughts to enter the player's mind and upset their rhythm or thought process. This looks like choking but is actually a loss of concentration. They don't stop fighting or trying to win but just hit too many bad shots.

FixdePitchmark

rrpc wrote: »

I don't think choking is the right word anyway. Choking to me is when a guy (or team) can't take the pressure and actually gives up the fight. Literally throw in the towel and settle for second place or worse.

In other cases, the effect of pressure can just cause too many extraneous thoughts to enter the player's mind and upset their rhythm or thought process. This looks like choking but is actually a loss of concentration. They don't stop fighting or trying to win but just hit too many bad shots.

Don't agree - most sport fans view chocking as the latter definition.

yaboya1

rrpc wrote: »

I don't think choking is the right word anyway. Choking to me is when a guy (or team) can't take the pressure and actually gives up the fight. Literally throw in the towel and settle for second place or worse.

In other cases, the effect of pressure can just cause too many extraneous thoughts to enter the player's mind and upset their rhythm or thought process. This looks like choking but is actually a loss of concentration. They don't stop fighting or trying to win but just hit too many bad shots.

Yeah, I can't agree with this either. To me, choking is exactly what you describe in the second paragraph.

SnowDrifts

Rory just completes a stunning triple and gets 2 majors in the space of a month and all the talk on this thread is about choking! Gotta love the Irish!! :D

rrpc

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Don't agree - most sport fans view chocking as the latter definition.

That's how they view it because they see the symptom and confuse the cause. Guys who win lose concentration at vital times as well. The difference between them and the guys that don't win is that they are able to clear their minds and reset. The choker will fade away the way McIlroy did at the Masters in 2011 or many others since.

Choking is a loss of self-belief not a loss of concentration.

FixdePitchmark

rrpc wrote: »

That's how they view it because they see the symptom and confuse the cause. Guys who win lose concentration at vital times as well. The difference between them and the guys that don't win is that they are able to clear their minds and reset. The choker will fade away the way McIlroy did at the Masters in 2011 or many others since.

Choking is a loss of self-belief not a loss of concentration.

I would think chocking is allowing your nerves overcome your concentration.

I think - "most spots fans" - would term what you are talking about as throwing the towel in.

Rory - chocked - then threw the towel in.

SaveOurLyric

rrpc wrote: »

Choking is a loss of self-belief not a loss of concentration.

Nooooo. I think you are out on your own on this one.
Choking is playing playing a few shots, or playing generally, worse than you would were you not in the lead. i.e. the pressure of your position relative to the field has interfered with your normal golf. Whether it affects your concentration, composure, skill, nerves, decision making or self belief is immaterial. You cracked. You choked.

SaveOurLyric

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Rory - chocked - then threw the towel in.

Yes. This.

rrpc

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Nooooo. I think you are out on your own on this one.
Choking is playing playing a few shots, or playing generally, worse than you would were you not in the lead. i.e. the pressure of your position relative to the field has interfered with your normal golf. Whether it affects your concentration, composure, skill, nerves, decision making or self belief is immaterial. You cracked. You choked.

We'll have to agree to differ so.

You can recover from a loss of concentration, not from a loss of self-belief.

PARlance

rrpc wrote: »

Choking is a loss of self-belief not a loss of concentration.

Even if others don't agree with you on that, Garcia still falls into the category of a choker under it, a big choker (unfortunately).

"I'm not good enough ... I don't have the thing I need to have," Garcia said in Spanish. His comments were translated for the Augusta Chronicle. "In 13 years I've come to the conclusion that I need to play for second or third place."

GreeBo

PARlance wrote: »

Even if others don't agree with you on that, Garcia still falls into the category of a choker under it, a big choker (unfortunately).

"I'm not good enough ... I don't have the thing I need to have," Garcia said in Spanish. His comments were translated for the Augusta Chronicle. "In 13 years I've come to the conclusion that I need to play for second or third place."

Thats not choking though, thats giving up. "Choking" is letting the pressure get to you in the heat of the moment.

rrpc wrote: »

I don't think choking is the right word anyway. Choking to me is when a guy (or team) can't take the pressure and actually gives up the fight. Literally throw in the towel and settle for second place or worse.

In other cases, the effect of pressure can just cause too many extraneous thoughts to enter the player's mind and upset their rhythm or thought process. This looks like choking but is actually a loss of concentration. They don't stop fighting or trying to win but just hit too many bad shots.

I dont think its a conscious settling for anything either. You still want to win, you just let the pressure get to you and dont perform as you would expect, because of it. You still want to win, you just cant control your reaction to pressure enough to win. Everyone feels that pressure, everyone is impacted to it, sometimes you get away with hit, sometimes you dont. Sometimes it persists and you lose the ability to do anything (a la Rory in 2010)

Ormus wrote: »

Garcia and Westwood hit bad putts every day of the week. They just get far more coverage when it happens on Sunday at a major. And it's happened them more times than other players because they are so consistently in contention on Sunday at majors.

I honestly don't think they've thrown away any majors by choking, as in hitting a 6 iron approach from the fairway into the trees on the 18th, or something along those lines.

Exactly, if you put yourself in contention more often you are going to lose more often. Thats a good thing rather than a bad thing imo.

FixdePitchmark

rrpc wrote: »

We'll have to agree to differ so.

You can recover from a loss of concentration, not from a loss of self-belief.

But self believe has ups and downs too.

blockic

Lads, thread is getting derailed a bit.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/mcilroy-defers-fryscom-commitment-2015/?cid=twitter-gc-a-mcilroy-defers-fryscom-commitment-2015-0801114

Interesting that this frys.com commitment was included in the Turkish open deal.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats not choking though, thats giving up. "Choking" is letting the pressure get to you in the heat of the moment.

If you don't a fundamental belief that you can do something then it's much more likely that pressure will get to you.

GreeBo

PARlance wrote: »

If you don't a fundamental belief that you can do something then it's much more likely that pressure will get to you.

They all know they can play the shots though. Playing them under pressure is not down to belief imo. The only thing different between playing them on the range and on the Sunday evening is handling pressure and experience of handling pressure.

I do agree that belief helps a great deal, but pressure is still pressure.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

They all know they can play the shots though. Playing them under pressure is not down to belief imo. The only thing different between playing them on the range and on the Sunday evening is handling pressure and experience of handling pressure.

I do agree that belief helps a great deal, but pressure is still pressure.

It's a chicken and egg scenario if you ask me. Most "winners" don't feel the pressure as much as others as they've so much self belief.