Rory McIlroy - 4 Time Major Winner

Hitch2222

Dav010 wrote: »

I think it was during/after the Players.

That's ideal, not doubting you for a moment and would offer the perfect scenario to look at.

I think people would have been really interested If GreeBo or anyone else had come along and said, I think the majors in recent years take a much greater toll on Rorys psychology than other tournaments.

He's mentioned his bounce in his step in the past-insert quote- and he referred to his efforts to stride confidently on to each hole after the players.

Take a look how he reacted after this poor shot at The Players & demeanour on the way to the next hole-insert video

Compare that to a similar shot at Augusta etc -insert video.

I don't know for certain but he seems different etc etc

My issue is, it's a complex topic so it deserves some in depth analysis.

Wild claims of mental issues as shown by slumped shoulders and why me faces just don't cut it imo

GreeBo

Rory McIlroy wrote:

Over the last couple of years, the only thing I feel has held me back between the golf I’ve played and the golf I want to play is mindset. That’s it. Nothing physical, purely how I’ve approached things mentally.

Rory McIlroy wrote:

It was just disappointment last year that I didn’t play better. I mentally wasn’t in the right place to fight through some of the tendencies I had with my swing.

Sports psychologist Gio Valiante suggested that on the evidence of what we saw in that final round, McIlroy needed to change his mental approach

Rory McIlroy wrote:

I just can’t beat myself up mentally; that’s something that I have done this week. I’ve really beaten myself up for hitting bad shots and making mistakes and I can’t do that because you can compound one mistake with another and then you get into a bit of a lull where you play a bad nine holes and you just can’t afford to do that.

Rory McIlroy wrote:

Mentally I have to be better and bounce back better.

Rory McIlroy wrote:

It all goes back to his mood and the thermostat of his game is his putting, McIlroy admits the system had a habit of shutting down if he overheated between the ears.

Asked if he’d thrown in the towel in an event by quitting before time, he said: “Yes.”

Asked for an example of quitting in an event he finished, he said: “I don’t know about quit but I have let my shoulders slump and my head drop and just not been as positive about the situation as I could have been. So it’s happened to me many times before but you learn with experience and a little bit more maturity that four-round golf tournaments, it’s a long time and there is a lot that can happen. I sort of proved that to myself this week.

“Maybe earlier on in my career when I wasn’t quite as mature and my mind wasn’t quite as…. not stable… I am a stable person. That’s the wrong choice of words there. But I’d just let my head drop and my shoulders slump and that’s something I did earlier on in my career so it is something that comes with experience and maturity."

Your witness.

Hitch2222

GreeBo wrote: »

Your witness.

That's all fine, I don't think anyone would refute any of that because McIlroy said it himself, everyone as mentioned is open to any of those ideas.

People simply don't buy that a person with a PhD in Armchair Psychology like yourself knows when a player's performance is suffering as a result of psychological factors.
"Slumped shoulders" and "why me faces" aren't exactly concrete indicators of changes in performance.

That's the crux of this, when McIlroy says it's psychological that's fine, when Greebo claims it's psychological it's not because you can't tell even if claim you know the "signs".

PokeHerKing

Hitch2222 wrote:

That's the crux of this, when McIlroy says it's psychological that's fine, when Greebo claims it's psychological it's not because you can't tell even if claim you know the "signs".

He knows the signs because Mcilroy himself has said "these are the signs".

Along with the fact that there's certain things we as humans can tell when looking at another humans body language in certain circumstances.

Do I need a degree in psychology to look at someone laughing and say they look like they're having a good time? Or if I see somebody roaring and shouting to say they look angry?

You seem to be nitpicking, given McIlroys obvious physical talent, his mental game being weak is a perfectly valid reason to give for his lack of majors/wins.

Hitch2222

PokeHerKing wrote: »

He knows the signs because Mcilroy himself has said "these are the signs".

Along with the fact that there's certain things we as humans can tell when looking at another humans body language in certain circumstances.

Do I need a degree in psychology to look at someone laughing and say they look like they're having a good time? Or if I see somebody roaring and shouting to say they look angry?

You seem to be nitpicking, given McIlroys obvious physical talent, his mental game being weak is a perfectly valid reason to give for his lack of majors/wins.

No it's not a perfectly valid reason, a valid reason has evidence, pinning it on "mental issues" is unfounded conjecture.
You can attempt to square whatever way you want but Greebo can't tell whether McIlroy is suffering psychologically by looking at him on the TV and referring to old quotes.

Nobody is claiming McIlroys performance hasn't suffered from psychological factors, I just don't buy that Greebo can tell so using it as a reason for anything is total drivel imo.

Additionally McIlroy saying

"Maybe earlier on in my career when I wasn’t quite as mature and my mind wasn’t quite as…. not stable… I am a stable person. That’s the wrong choice of words there. But I’d just let my head drop and my shoulders slump and that’s something I did earlier on in my career so it is something that comes with experience and maturity."

which is quote from 2016 is hardly tantamount to how he handles himself in 2019 which is what Greebo claims, even I was to assume it still is what McIlroy does, I don't think Greebo knows when the switch flips.

No of course you don't need a psychology degree to make certain assumptions about someone laughing but that's hardly analogous to a change in the shape of someone's shoulders or "why me" face?

It's not nitpicking, it's simply highlighting that Greebo is clutching at a bad argument.

Scott Tenorman

Hitch2222 wrote: »

No it's not a perfectly valid reason, a valid reason has evidence, pinning it on "mental issues" is unfounded conjecture.
You can attempt to square whatever way you want but Greebo can't tell whether McIlroy is suffering psychologically by looking at him on the TV and referring to old quotes.

Nobody is claiming McIlroys performance hasn't suffered from psychological factors, I just don't buy that Greebo can tell so using it as a reason for anything is total drivel imo.

Additionally McIlroy saying

"Maybe earlier on in my career when I wasn’t quite as mature and my mind wasn’t quite as…. not stable… I am a stable person. That’s the wrong choice of words there. But I’d just let my head drop and my shoulders slump and that’s something I did earlier on in my career so it is something that comes with experience and maturity."

which is quote from 2016 is hardly tantamount to how he handles himself in 2019 which is what Greebo claims, even I was to assume it still is what McIlroy does, I don't think Greebo knows when the switch flips.

No of course you don't need a psychology degree to make certain assumptions about someone laughing but that's hardly analogous to a change in the shape of someone's shoulders or "why me" face?

It's not nitpicking, it's simply highlighting that Greebo is clutching at a bad argument.

He's not though, he is spot on.
Just because YOU don't like how he reached his conclusion doesn't invalidate that conclusion.

Hitch2222

Scott Tenorman wrote: »

He's not though, he is spot on.
Just because YOU don't like how he reached his conclusion doesn't invalidate that conclusion.

That's fine if you think that's enough to validate Greebo's clairvoyance.

I simply don't believe that Greebo retrospectively searching McIlroy quotes and finding one reference to his shoulders slumping which was made 3 years ago in reference to how he use to react-probably 5+ years ago- is enough to validate all these claims he makes in 2019:

"can tell a fair bit from someones demeanor on the course..slumped shoulders with the "why me" face isn't really someone who is grinding"

"The stuff you are calling "mental" I would categorize more as personality."

"I'm not particularly enamoured with what I see of his persona at the moment."

"Golf is Physical and Mental. Clearly he has the physical ability ergo the problem is on the mental side."

"Rory just doesn't have the mental game, when is in top form he is one of the best, but when he is not he immediately relegates himself to an also ran...is not a grinder."

IMO it's a complex topic which GreeBo clearly knows nothing about so I think it's fine to dismiss, you and others may feel he has this uncanny ability but I don't.

Scott Tenorman

Hitch2222 wrote: »

That's fine if you think that's enough to validate Greebo's clairvoyance.

I simply don't believe that Greebo retrospectively searching McIlroy quotes and finding one reference to his shoulders slumping which was made 3 years ago in reference to how he use to react-probably 5+ years ago- is enough to validate all these claims he makes in 2019:

"can tell a fair bit from someones demeanor on the course..slumped shoulders with the "why me" face isn't really someone who is grinding"

"The stuff you are calling "mental" I would categorize more as personality."

"I'm not particularly enamoured with what I see of his persona at the moment."

"Golf is Physical and Mental. Clearly he has the physical ability ergo the problem is on the mental side."

"Rory just doesn't have the mental game, when is in top form he is one of the best, but when he is not he immediately relegates himself to an also ran...is not a grinder."

IMO it's a complex topic which GreeBo clearly knows nothing about so I think it's fine to dismiss, you and others may feel he has this uncanny ability but I don't.

It's a discussion forum, not a court of law. Calm down FFS :rolleyes:

OEP

I think that's enough of that......

neddynasty

Pissartist wrote: »

Can't see him winning either, both windy links courses, never suited his game

At least 1 of his 4 Majors was won on a links course in Liverpool. The Kiawah Island major was links like conditions. I'm not sure if that's officially a links course. He's also grown up playing on a links course.

I think this thing of him not being able to play windy links courses is over played. His record in The Open over the last 5 years is exceptional. There are not that many links courses on the roster every year so little opportunity to have a winning record on them.

Donald Trumped

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2019/tournamentid=2019060/news/newsid=369651.html

Confirmation in the above link that Rory as expected will tee it up in the Scottish Open.

rooney30

Scott Tenorman wrote: »

It's a discussion forum, not a court of law. Calm down FFS :rolleyes:

Yip , never a truer word said . People need to calm the **** down in here

prawnsambo

rooney30 wrote: »

Yip , never a truer word said . People need to calm the **** down in here

Based on this post, I bought a bag of popcorn and went back a page. I think you owe me for a bag of popcorn. :pac:

Pogue eile

PokeHerKing wrote: »

You seem to be nitpicking, given McIlroys obvious physical talent, his mental game being weak is a perfectly valid reason to give for his lack of majors/wins.

Very true, I mean four majors and 2 WGC's and 5 winning Ryder Cup appearances and the only player since Jack and Tiger to achieve 4 majors and 15 other PGA tour wins before the age of 30 - this despite the fact he spent the first half of his career focusing on the European tour.

He must be weak as shi* mentally in fairness :D

Dav010

Pogue eile wrote: »

Very true, I mean four majors and 2 WGC's and 5 winning Ryder Cup appearances and the only player since Jack and Tiger to achieve 4 majors and 15 other PGA tour wins before the age of 30 - this despite the fact he spent the first half of his career focusing on the European tour.

He must be weak as shi* mentally in fairness :D

As Hitch said, if the man himself states that he has had problems with the mental side of his games, it is hard to argue with him.

I suspect quite a few of those quotes are from after he won his last major.

Try playing the ball, not the man, it adds more to the discussion.

Pogue eile

Dav010 wrote: »

Try playing the ball, not the man, it adds more to the discussion.

Is that the strawman you are talking about?

And please explain how I was playing the man? It's called a counter argument.

Hitch2222

Pogue eile wrote: »

Is that the strawman you are talking about?

And please explain how I was playing the man? It's called a counter argument.

Mental strength or whatever jargon the lads want to use is of course relative.

Rory referring to all the aforementioned mental aspects does not mean he is mentally weak in absolute or in relative terms to his peers.

I suspect if people went digging for quotes by other golfers the way GreeBo has for McIlroy we'd find a relatively equal amount of quotes referring to mental jargon proportional to the players interviews & general coverage.

More quotes referring to mental issues does not equal more mental problems especially when you're the 2nd most covered golfer in the world.

It's simple confirmation bias, nothing more.

Dav010

Hitch2222 wrote: »

Mental strength or whatever jargon the lads want to use is of course relative.

Rory referring to all the aforementioned mental aspects does not mean he is mentally weak in absolute or in relative terms to his peers.

I suspect if people went digging for quotes by other golfers the way GreeBo has for McIlroy we'd find a relatively equal amount of quotes referring to mental jargon proportional to the players interviews & general coverage.

More quotes referring to mental issues does not equal more mental problems especially when you're the 2nd most covered golfer in the world.

It's simple confirmation bias, nothing more.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that he is mentally weak, certainly I’m not, but the player himself, on multiple occasions as evidenced by the number of times he has spoken about it, has identified the mental aspect of his game as a weakness. There is a difference between being weak, and being able to identify a weakness, and then trying to improve it. I don’t know whether that is more aligned to yours or Greebo’s viewpoint, but it is difficult to argue against what the player says about his own performance.

Pougue Eile posted about straw man arguments, quoting Mcilroy himself on this subject, would that be an example of steelmanning? Personally I can’t think of a more qualified person to quote than the player himself.

Hitch2222

Dav010 wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is arguing that he is mentally weak, certainly I’m not, but the player himself, on multiple occasions as evidenced by the number of times he has spoken about it, has identified the mental aspect of his game as a weakness. There is a difference between being weak, and being able to identify a weakness, and then trying to improve it. I don’t know whether that is more aligned to yours or Greebo’s viewpoint, but it is difficult to argue against what the player says about his own performance.

Pougue Eile posted about straw man arguments, quoting Mcilroy himself on this subject, would that be an example of steelmanning?

Well I think GreeBo is certainly running with the narrative that he has significant mental frailties, issues around personality etc. I assume we don't need to quote his logic once again.

I've always maintained I'm open to the idea of any issue mental, physical, external etc, my gripe was and has remained the simplistic assertions GreeBo has made.

The term is steelmaning and no this is certainly not an example of it.
An example in this instance of steelmaning would be GreeBo making his statements around McIlroys shoulder shrugging and me in turn surfacing the quote Greenbo used.
I would be steelmaning because I would be demonstrating I understood his point, improved upon his rationale but still had reasons to doubt it's validity.
That's steelmaning but retroactively fitting quotes to a narrative is not an example.

*I see you corrected your strongman term

Dav010

I understand the point you are making, it certainly is difficult to know what exactly is going on in McIlroy's mind, or any other player's for that matter, when they are competing at the highest level. So the best source, and most qualified opinion is the player himself, he knows his own mind best, if he acknowledges his mental weaknesses, and the visible signs, it is hard to argue with him.

GreeBo

Hitch2222 wrote: »

Well I think GreeBo is certainly running with the narrative that he has significant mental frailties, issues around personality etc. I assume we don't need to quote his logic once again.

I've always maintained I'm open to the idea of any issue mental, physical, external etc, my gripe was and has remained the simplistic assertions GreeBo has made.

The term is steelmaning and no this is certainly not an example of it.
An example in this instance of steelmaning would be GreeBo making his statements around McIlroys shoulder shrugging and me in turn surfacing the quote Greenbo used.
I would be steelmaning because I would be demonstrating I understood his point, improved upon his rationale but still had reasons to doubt it's validity.
That's steelmaning but retroactively fitting quotes to a narrative is not an example.

*I see you corrected your strongman term

1) I never said he had "issues around personality". I replied to another posters point about him faking an injury and throwing clubs.
What I said was

The stuff you are calling "mental" I would categorize more as personality. I could care less if he is throwing clubs or being a little dick about things, to be frank, I'm not particularly enamoured with what I see of his persona at the moment. Sure I dont think much of Rahms antics or Sergios but Rorys twitter flip-flops dont do it for me either.

2) Issues are either physical or mental. There is no "external". Any so called "external" issues either impact you physically or mentally or they do not impact you.

3) The quotes I used, as you have been at pains to point out, are old quotes from McIlroy himself. I, along with many others, have heard these quotes before, both from the man himself and from other journalists talking about them. This is not news (at least not to anyone but you)

4) This is a discussion forum, where people have discussions on things and voice opinions, its not a medical or scientific journal or a soapbox for you to come onto and pontificate (fwiw the basketball forum isnt that either!)

5) A number of posters have agreed with the logic behind using McIlroys own assertions as proof of his mental state yet you are continuing with your narrative of "oh I'm open to anything, as long as someone gives me proof" when what you are asking for is impossible, how do you measure "mental strength"? you don't, you observe it, or more likely, you observe what appears to be a lack of it. One thing you certainly do, and people have done for hundreds of years, is discuss mental strength in relation to sports stars.

6) There was no going back and rewriting history as you seem to imply. I didn't find the quotes to suit my opinion, I formed my opinion based on the quotes, the articles about the quotes and observations of the player in action. The quotes existed before my post.

7) When it comes to Rory McIlroy's mental strength or lack of it, I'll take *his own* opinion over yours.

8) Unfortunately the touch app doesn't recognize the ignore user feature so I accidentally read your last post. Needless to say, I shall no longer be using the touch app.

Hitch2222

GreeBo wrote: »

1) I never said he had "issues around personality". I replied to another posters point about him faking an injury and throwing clubs.
What I said was


2) Issues are either physical or mental. There is no "external". Any so called "external" issues either impact you physically or mentally or they do not impact you.

That's obviously ridiculous, you think when Koepka shoots -12 through 36 holes, that's not an external factor that may have zero impact on McIlroy which is in turn out of his control yet impacts his ability to win?

3) The quotes I used, as you have been at pains to point out, are old quotes from McIlroy himself. I, along with many others, have heard these quotes before, both from the man himself and from other journalists talking about them. This is not news (at least not to anyone but you)

I accept the quotes because he said them as I always said but I don't accept your armchair psychology. I've said this a number of times. Perhaps you feel your kinship is close enough that you can tell but I don't buy that.


4) This is a discussion forum, where people have discussions on things and voice opinions, its not a medical or scientific journal or a soapbox for you to come onto and pontificate (fwiw the basketball forum isnt that either!)

I appreciate you taking the time to research where I post elsewhere, I think I've seen enough of you here to not need to look elsewhere.
Taking an analytical approach to sports is kind of the norm now. Please see Moneyball for an introduction.

5) A number of posters have agreed with the logic behind using McIlroys own assertions as proof of his mental state yet you are continuing with your narrative of "oh I'm open to anything, as long as someone gives me proof" when what you are asking for is impossible, how do you measure "mental strength"? you don't, you observe it, or more likely, you observe what appears to be a lack of it. One thing you certainly do, and people have done for hundreds of years, is discuss mental strength in relation to sports stars.

That's fine, you have people who agree with you, you're generally the most diagreed with person on the thread. Please feel free to discuss it but if you discuss it you must expect a rebuttal when your assertions and retroactive evidence is so poor.

6) There was no going back and rewriting history as you seem to imply. I didn't find the quotes to suit my opinion, I formed my opinion based on the quotes, the articles about the quotes and observations of the player in action. The quotes existed before my post.

I tend to think there was confirmation bias at play but as I said even if I grant you that quote, it still doesn't change that your knowledge of Kinesics is not sufficient to me.

7) When it comes to Rory McIlroy's mental strength or lack of it, I'll take *his own* opinion over yours.

Youre still not getting your blatant irony, your obliviousness is truly astounding. I've never had an opiniom on his mentality, ONLY YOU HAVE.

Mental strength only needs to be relative as I referred to already, more quotes from McIlroy about "mental issues" does not mean more issues if he is interviewed more.

I'll make it easy for you;

If McIlroy is interviewed 100 times and discusses mental issues 10 times that is 10%

If DJ is interviewed 50 times and refers to mental issues 8 times that's 16%.

McIlroy referred to mental issues more because 10>8 but as a proportion of the time spent discussing the issue McIlroy spoke less because 10%<16%.

McIlroy is the 2nd most covered golfer in the world hence the availability of these quotes.

8) Unfortunately the touch app doesn't recognize the ignore user feature so I accidentally read your last post. Needless to say, I shall no longer be using the touch app.

Cool, 3rd time is a charm and that makes it 3 times you've felt the need to reiterate your infantile behaviour.

Answers in bold

Dav010 wrote: »

I understand the point you are making, it certainly is difficult to know what exactly is going on in McIlroy's mind, or any other player's for that matter, when they are competing at the highest level. So the best source, and most qualified opinion is the player himself, he knows his own mind best, if he acknowledges his mental weaknesses, and the visible signs, it is hard to argue with him.

This is the crux of it for me, it's the ambiguous nature of this.
People feel that because he's referenced his mentality and makes one mention of shoulder shrugging then all of a sudden any failures on his part can simply be attributed to that.

Sure look "Shrugged his shoulders, the head is gone"

Ensue the concocting of an entire story around this and run with it.

As I've constantly maintained, I don't know what he or any other athlete thinks, I don't pretend to know and I find it silly when people conjecture based on flimsy assumptions.
That's been my position all along no matter how anyone tries to spin it in their own mind.

charlieIRL

OK guys, I know everyone is entitiled to their opinion on a topic but please lets keep this civil and disscuss the posts and not the person who wrote them.

abff

Just looking at the Race to Dubai rankings and Rory only seems to have been credited with the 198.2 points he won in the USPGA Championship. Any idea why?

The following results are listed on the European Tour website.


Tournament End Date Pos R1 R2 R3 R4 Total Par
US PGA CHAMPIONSHIP 19/05/2019 T8 198.2 72 71 69 69 281 +1
Betfred British Masters 12/05/2019 T0 - 0 0
THE MASTERS 14/04/2019 T21 106.5 73 71 71 68 283 -5
WGC-Dell Technologies Match Play 31/03/2019 T9 155.3 0 0
WGC-Mexico Championship 24/02/2019 2 1,000.0 63 70 68 67 268 -16

Speak Now

abff wrote: »

Just looking at the Race to Dubai rankings and Rory only seems to have been credited with the 198.2 points he won in the USPGA Championship. Any idea why?

The following results are listed on the European Tour website.


Tournament End Date Pos R1 R2 R3 R4 Total Par
US PGA CHAMPIONSHIP 19/05/2019 T8 198.2 72 71 69 69 281 +1
Betfred British Masters 12/05/2019 T0 - 0 0
THE MASTERS 14/04/2019 T21 106.5 73 71 71 68 283 -5
WGC-Dell Technologies Match Play 31/03/2019 T9 155.3 0 0
WGC-Mexico Championship 24/02/2019 2 1,000.0 63 70 68 67 268 -16

I'm guessing the race to Dubai points only count after you take up your tour membership.

abff

Speak Now wrote: »

I'm guessing the race to Dubai points only count after you take up your tour membership.

I figured that had to be the answer, but I can't understand why he allowed his European Tour membership to lapse. Was it to do with not playing enough tournaments last year?

Speak Now

abff wrote: »

I figured that had to be the answer, but I can't understand why he allowed his European Tour membership to lapse. Was it to do with not playing enough tournaments last year?

His own choice not to renew membership until May, remember his stepping stone comments back in January...why would any top player play in Europe etc...just another McIlroy U turn.

bren2001

Speak Now wrote: »

His own choice not to renew membership until May, remember his stepping stone comments back in January...why would any top player play in Europe etc...just another McIlroy U turn.

I don't think it's a U-turn at all. The ET is a stepping stone tour. Nothing he said was wrong.

He didn't quite say "why would any top player play in Europe". He said:

"If players are getting paid more and earning more world ranking points, why would you play over there?"

He also said:

"It's tough. I still want to support the European Tour".

His only U-turn was to take up membership which required him to play 1 extra tournament than already scheduled.

Donald Trumped

Rory McIlroy is currently playing the 1st round of the Memorial Tournament at Dublin, Ohio today. I'm afraid it hasn't been a great start at all for Rory. He has struggled with the driver big time so far today, with two tee shots out of bounds already, costing him 2 double-bogeys. After 11 holes, he is on + 4. He'll do well to make the halfway cut. Currently 11 shots behind leader Ryan Moore who is on 7 under with 4 to play.

PhuckHugh22

Donald Trumped wrote: »

Rory McIlroy is currently playing the 1st round of the Memorial Tournament at Dublin, Ohio today. I'm afraid it hasn't been a great start at all for Rory. He has struggled with the driver big time so far today, with two tee shots out of bounds already, costing him 2 double-bogeys. After 11 holes, he is on + 4. He'll do well to make the halfway cut. Currently 11 shots behind leader Ryan Moore who is on 7 under with 4 to play.

Don't think he hit the driver on either of those holes that he went OOB.

But anyway poor enough either way.