Rory McIlroy - 4 Time Major Winner

PARlance

First Up wrote: »

The point being that he seems unable to sort it out for himself.

I agree. But I don't think he'll let anyone else sort it out for him either.

First Up

PARlance wrote:

I agree. But I don't think he'll let anyone else sort it out for him either.

Exactly. I'm not "blaming" JP but I am of the view that their on course relationship lacks something that Rory clearly needs.

CMOTDibbler

First Up wrote: »

Exactly. I'm not "blaming" JP but I am of the view that their on course relationship lacks something that Rory clearly needs.

How? Rory admitted that the occasion got to him again. How does any caddy stop that? That's a job for a sports psychologist, not a bag carrier.

First Up

CMOTDibbler wrote:

How? Rory admitted that the occasion got to him again. How does any caddy stop that? That's a job for a sports psychologist, not a bag carrier.

The best bag carriers double as psychologists.

PARlance

First Up wrote: »

Exactly. I'm not "blaming" JP but I am of the view that their on course relationship lacks something that Rory clearly needs.

Wasn't arguing with your point, just adding my take on it. I agree, I just can't see it happening.

I think there's more chance of him figuring "it" out himself before anything else. It being course management and reacting better to mistakes especially in Augusta.

CMOTDibbler

First Up wrote: »

The best bag carriers double as psychologists.

No they don't. They're mates, golfers and experienced advisers. Billy Foster is one of the best and he could never get inside Seve's head. Seve always decided regardless of what Billy said.

A sports psychologist gives you the tools to deal with the stresses and pressures of the sporting environment. That work can't be done in the heat of battle, it has to be done by laying the groundwork well in advance.

First Up

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

No they don't. They're mates, golfers and experienced advisers. Billy Foster is one of the best and he could never get inside Seve's head. Seve always decided regardless of what Billy said.

A sports psychologist gives you the tools to deal with the stresses and pressures of the sporting environment. That work can't be done in the heat of battle, it has to be done by laying the groundwork well in advance.

Yes they do. Its a well researched subject. Have a look at this: http://www.athleticinsight.com/Vol6Iss1/GolfCaddieRole.htm

There has been an increasing interest in the popular press regarding the role caddies play in competitive golf. Donegan (1998), for example, has provided a journalistic account of a year as a professional caddie on the European Professional Golfers Association Tour. The importance of the golfer-caddie relationship with respect to performance has also been recently chronicled by Dabell (1997, 2000). These, and other anecdotal accounts (e.g., Abram & O’Byrne, 1996; Carrick & Duno, 2000; Puett & Apfelbaum, 1992), have provided some insight into the general facets of the caddies’ role by suggesting that caddies need to be part psychologist, part weather-forecaster, part cheerleader, part mind-reader, and part coach. Other authors in the popular press have described caddies as counselors, dieticians, secretaries, crowd controllers, and amateur physiologists (Mackenzie, 1997, 1999; Plimpton, 1997; Reinman, 1999).

(The Donegan referred to is Laurence Donegan. His book "Four Iron in the Soul" is well worth a read.

CMOTDibbler

First Up wrote: »

Yes they do. Its a well researched subject. Have a look at this: http://www.athleticinsight.com/Vol6Iss1/GolfCaddieRole.htm

There has been an increasing interest in the popular press regarding the role caddies play in competitive golf. Donegan (1998), for example, has provided a journalistic account of a year as a professional caddie on the European Professional Golfers Association Tour. The importance of the golfer-caddie relationship with respect to performance has also been recently chronicled by Dabell (1997, 2000). These, and other anecdotal accounts (e.g., Abram & O’Byrne, 1996; Carrick & Duno, 2000; Puett & Apfelbaum, 1992), have provided some insight into the general facets of the caddies’ role by suggesting that caddies need to be part psychologist, part weather-forecaster, part cheerleader, part mind-reader, and part coach. Other authors in the popular press have described caddies as counselors, dieticians, secretaries, crowd controllers, and amateur physiologists (Mackenzie, 1997, 1999; Plimpton, 1997; Reinman, 1999).

(The Donegan referred to is Laurence Donegan. His book "Four Iron in the Soul" is well worth a read.

'Part'.

There's no substitute for the real thing. Most of the above is over twenty years old. Sports psychology has moved on in quantum leaps in that time. I've no doubt they help as much as they can but mental preparedness and the ability to deal with on course stresses are not things you can pull out of the bag like a wedge or a putter.

First Up

CMOTDibbler wrote:

There's no substitute for the real thing. Most of the above is over twenty years old. Sports psychology has moved on in quantum leaps in that time. I've no doubt they help as much as they can but mental preparedness and the ability to deal with on course stresses are not things you can pull out of the bag like a wedge or a putter.

Sports psychology has changed very little. There were examples of superb caddy/player synergy in the 50s, 60s and 70s as there is today.

Yes, many bag carriers are instructed to follow the old dictat of "pick up, keep up and shut up" and that suits some players. However what I see with Rory suggests he would benefit from more.

FixdePitchmark

First Up wrote: »

Sports psychology has changed very little. There were examples of superb caddy/player synergy in the 50s, 60s and 70s as there is today.

Yes, many bag carriers are instructed to follow the old dictat of "pick up, keep up and shut up" and that suits some players. However what I see with Rory suggests he would benefit from more.

He did win 4 majors with him.

But - I agree a change will be a feature in next few years.

We forget that Rory is young , he will change alot in the next few years.

CMOTDibbler

First Up wrote: »

Sports psychology has changed very little. There were examples of superb caddy/player synergy in the 50s, 60s and 70s as there is today.

You're still talking about caddies as if they were qualified psychologists. They are not. You may have guys with strong emotional intelligence but it's a mistake to confuse that with what is a highly developed and structured method of dealing with the psychology of sports and sports people.

First Up wrote: »

Yes, many bag carriers are instructed to follow the old dictat of "pick up, keep up and shut up" and that suits some players. However what I see with Rory suggests he would benefit from more.

He may. But he has far more need of a professional sports psychologist than a part time amateur who doubles as his bag carrier. If he needs it on the course, it's already too late.

FixdePitchmark

PARlance wrote: »

I agree. But I don't think he'll let anyone else sort it out for him either.

Hard to believe that "if", he continued to have issues with his game he wouldn't explore other options.

But at this stage of his life (and it has to be admired to a degree) he comes across as a lad slow to take on advice.

He seems a fairly stubborn single minded individual - but again these are important traits for the elite of the elite.

Anyone know who is on his team working with him ?
Short Game
Putting.

In my own opinion changing putting like that is a way way bigger deal than is made out - he almost had a placebo effect straight after. He is pulling putts fairly badly - he wasn't even hitting edges.

First Up

CMOTDibbler wrote:

You're still talking about caddies as if they were qualified psychologists. They are not. You may have guys with strong emotional intelligence but it's a mistake to confuse that with what is a highly developed and structured method of dealing with the psychology of sports and sports people.

You don't have to be a qualified psychologist to be able to use psychology and of course, some caddies are better at it than others and some players are more open to help.

CMOTDibbler wrote:

He may. But he has far more need of a professional sports psychologist than a part time amateur who doubles as his bag carrier. If he needs it on the course, it's already too late.

The psychology used by caddies is to help deal with specific - usually adverse - situations and there are countless and well documented examples of where players have acknowledged the role their caddy played.

Not every caddy does it and not every player would benefit from it. I think Rory would.

FixdePitchmark

First Up wrote: »

You don't have to be a qualified psychologist to be able to use psychology and of course, some caddies are better at it than others and some players are more open to help.



The psychology used by caddies is to help deal with specific - usually adverse - situations and there are countless and well documented examples of where players have acknowledged the role their caddy played.

Not every caddy does it and not every player would benefit from it. I think Rory would.

Agree with this - some of the most successful relationships in sport (and golf) were not qualified anything.

Anyway - much of Rotella stuff is very very simple.

Examples
Roy Keane - Manchester United
Alex Fergusion
Ray Reardon - Ronnie
Cody
Bones and Phil

The caddies working well - are saying very simple things like
"tempo"
"have you got target"
"that is the perfect shot"
"routine"
"you got this"

Jp is very quiet (seems to be)

Anyway - caddy is the last worry - there are more serious issue with short game and putting.

But again - he is so talented (good) - he can turn things around with any sort of effort.

Chasing Spieth on Saturday was pure panic.

There was no need for it and you didn't need any qualification in the world to know that - just experience and calmness and maybe a wise word.

FixdePitchmark

First Up wrote: »

You don't have to be a qualified psychologist to be able to use psychology and of course, some caddies are better at it than others and some players are more open to help.



The psychology used by caddies is to help deal with specific - usually adverse - situations and there are countless and well documented examples of where players have acknowledged the role their caddy played.

Not every caddy does it and not every player would benefit from it. I think Rory would.

Agree with this - some of the most successful relationships in sport (and golf) were not qualified anything.

Anyway - much of Rotella stuff is very very simple.

Examples
Roy Keane - Manchester United
Alex Fergusion
Ray Reardon - Ronnie
Cody
Bones and Phil

The caddies working well - are saying very simple things like
"tempo"
"have you got target"
"that is the perfect shot"
"routine"
"you got this"

Jp is very quiet (seems to be)

Anyway - caddy is the last worry - there are more serious issue with short game and putting.

But again - he is so talented (good) - he can turn things around with any sort of effort.

Chasing Spieth on Saturday was pure painc.

There was no need for it and you didn't need any qulaification in the world to know that - just experience and calmness and maybe a wise word.

CMOTDibbler

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Jp is very quiet (seems to be)

They have a different routine to other golfers. I often see them talking together before the shot, but JP doesn't stand as close to the ball as other caddies do. A couple of times during the WGC matchplay, the camera caught them deep in conversation before Rory took his shot. In that case, there's more camera time on the players and not the instant switching you get in normal strokeplay matches.

So all this is based on what's visible on the television? Hardly conclusive stuff tbh.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Chasing Spieth on Saturday was pure painc.

There was no need for it and you didn't need any qulaification in the world to know that - just experience and calmness and maybe a wise word.

I didn't see that as panic. I believe it was an attempt to put a score up that would force Spieth to chase which he clearly doesn't like. Outside of Augusta, the score is much higher in Rory's favour, so he should know what makes Spieth cave. Willett did it with his steady encroachment on the scoreboard and Spieth's slip ups on 10 and 11 helped.

It didn't work because Rory's game was not up to it and he couldn't help getting caught up in the occasion. That's why I think he needs a proper sports psychologist to give him the tools to deal with Augusta specifically.

Armchair Andy

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Very interesting stats. The only thing I'd asay is that you'd have to take the full round in its entirety to get the true picture. Some holes suit some people and not others. Everybody has holes that they always play average to badly on. Looking at the tenth, he's averaged better than 4.5 on it, despite it being the hole that destroyed his chance of a win in 2011. There are a lot of holes in Augusta that the field has played over par on. Danny Willettt may have had an advantage in that he doesn't have any baggage really, having only played there once before. Jordan Spieth may never be able to look at the twelfth again without having two nightmare flashbacks. :eek:

If I was to point the finger at what went wrong for Rory, I'd say it was that he went very aggressively after Spieth on Saturday (possibly knowing that if he shot a good score, he'd presuure Spieth into mistakes), but it didn't work out. I don't really count Sunday as a factor because at that stage he had no choice but to go after scores and Augusta doesn't play nice when you do that. Not unless you have your full A++ game in the bag.

The main reason being his putting up against Spieth's over the first 6-7 holes was shown to be very poor. I think he made the fatal error of changing to super aggressive when he realised Spieth wasn't coming back to him. He should've been a lot more patient. That second on 11 should never have been taken on, as someone else said, it was still only Saturday.

Letree

First Up wrote: »

Exactly. I'm not "blaming" JP but I am of the view that their on course relationship lacks something that Rory clearly needs.

When Rory is losing the plot, making bad choices or letting the head go down you rarely see JB right in his ear talking to him. JP backs off and gives him space if anything. Rory doesn't seem to be able to pull himself back from a bad mental space very easily, he sort of waits till it passes and by then much of the damage is done.

DiegoWorst

He didn't win, is it such a big deal?
He finished tied 10th out of an 89 man event, 6 shots off the pace, on a very tough firm windy course.
A soft course playing long suits his game, the conditions in Augusta last week didn't fit him.

Rory's game is all about attack. He is aggressive, and sometimes gets into bother when things don't quite come off.

Why does he need to change anything?
I agree with some of the comments regarding his course management & patience. And if he was to change anything, perhaps a slightly more considered approach to danger holes. But I wouldn't change a whole lot, he's a magnificent player and a joy to watch when he's in full flow. In an era of slow play, his approach is very refreshing and a fine example for young golfers.

His putting is no where near Spieth's level, but he still put a lot of positive strokes on his putts. The only sloppy putts I saw him hit was the par putt on 7 Saturday, and on the same day the birdie putt at 15. This is a big improvement, particularly on 6 footers, since he went left hand low.
He will destroy a field before the year is out, I just hope it'll be at a major championship.

I can understand the frustration, because his ball striking, particularly off the tee is outstanding.

First Up

Letree wrote: »

When Rory is losing the plot, making bad choices or letting the head go down you rarely see JB right in his ear talking to him. JP backs off and gives him space if anything. Rory doesn't seem to be able to pull himself back from a bad mental space very easily, he sort of waits till it passes and by then much of the damage is done.

I assume this is because its the way Rory wants it. However what Rory wants and what Rory needs may not be the same thing. JP has obviously done well out of the "pick up, keep up and shut up" mode of caddying and by all accounts they are good mates off the course. All fair enough but winning the Masters isn't going to get any easier and the formidable array of hot young competitors is getting longer all the time.

If the current formula doesn't work in adverse/pressure situations (and it very obviously doesn't), then we are back to the old definition of insanity - repeatedly doing the same thing while expecting a different result.

I now await the deluge of posts reminding me that Rory has won 19 times including 4 majors and has been World #1 etc. All true, but the focus needs to be on the future, not the past.

valoren

The Masters is quickly becoming to McIlroy what the US Open has been to Mickelson.
Ask someone to picture McIlroy playing a "Golf" shot. They will in all likelihood picture him bombing his driver. Ask that same person to think about Phil and they will picture him clinging a wedge. Picture Spieth and they'll probably picture him draining a five footer without looking at his ball.
Both have been Masters champion.

The USGA have always placed a premium on accuracy with the driver for the US Open. This has hurt Mickelson who can be wayward from the tee into the infamous US Open rough (none of your 'Second Cuts' there).

The Masters Committee knows that Augusta National's primary defence is the greens so short game and putting must be spot on. You can be wayward with the driver but so long as you are confident with your short game and putting, you can post the numbers. Three green jackets for Phil is testament to that. Spieth is another short game wizard and has gone 2nd-1st-2nd.

The danger here is raised expectations and the burden he might carry from that. Rory's game suits the course and he has said as much.
It currently suits it tee to green. It doesn't on the green itself.

The post tournament queries to Rory are now "Why didn't you win The Masters this year?" or "What went wrong for you?" and not the the run of the mill "How do you sum up your Masters this year?". He is expected to win every year now. The longer this continues then the higher the burden will be. Compounding every year.

The takeaway here is that Rory has the benefit of the Masters being held at the same course every year.
I'm sure he will learn that bombing it 350 doesn't equate to a guaranteed Green Jacket.
He has the length, and with the focus on maintenance and injury proofing his body, his long game and his longevity is solidified.

And time on his side. Look at Langer. 58 years old and 30-40 yards behind Day on his drives all day and he outscores the world #1 and the man of the moment by a shot and Rory by 7 shots on the Saturday. Like a canny old Pro with local knowledge For example, instead of punching out from the pines on the 11th, Rory went for the green with a superstar shot. An operator like Langer would punch out and get his pitch close (he'd know where to try and land it where the pin was from experience) and hope to make Par putt. He'd know that Bogey would be a worst case scenario from where he was. He'd avoid a DB which is what Rory scored. Langer was level through Amen Corner. Rory was +3. Where was the strategy there? By all means be aggressive and gun ho but certainly not for that situation.

The tiddlers, or as Paul Azinger calls them, "Kneeknockers" all count the same on the card.
If he begins to appreciate and embrace the importance of making them then victory at Augusta is inevitable.
Golf and Putting. Two completely different games as per Hogan "...Golf is played in the air, and the other on the ground".

Jawgap

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

......
Chasing Spieth on Saturday was pure panic.

......

I think this was part of his problems and not an insignificant part - Rory looked like he was chasing Spieth when they played together - it almost seemed like he was trying to play matchplay golf!

My own view, (as a non-pro, mid-handicapper ) is he should've 'stalked' him - and just done enough to stay in touch - that might have put as much pressure on Spieth if he saw he wasn't shaking Rory off, instead I think Rory wanted to pressure Spieth by attacking his lead.

CMOTDibbler

Jawgap wrote: »

I think this was part of his problems and not an insignificant part - Rory looked like he was chasing Spieth when they played together - it almost seemed like he was trying to play matchplay golf!

My own view, (as a non-pro, mid-handicapper ) is he should've 'stalked' him - and just done enough to stay in touch - that might have put as much pressure on Spieth if he saw he wasn't shaking Rory off, instead I think Rory wanted to pressure Spieth by attacking his lead.

This is what I believe too. He tried to go after Spieth using his long game as a weapon and he over stretched himself. He was the most inaccurate off the tee that he'd been all week and instead of being able to place shots on the green from good positions on the fairway he was scrambling to get par. You can't really do that in Augusta, all the players say that you map your way back from the pin to the tee and that was a lesson Rory didn't take on board.

But it's the aggressive play that we love about Rory's game. If he lost that, I think he'd lose what makes him so special.

Seve OB

If Rory played conservatively last Sunday to try and "think" his way around the course I can see two things that could have resulted.

Less mistakes, instead of 6 bogeys, he may of well had close to none.

But

Less Birdies, and possibly less pars. It is his aggressive style the enables him to make amazing scores. Playing sensibly has it's place, but it will always come at a cost.

First Up

CMOTDibbler wrote:

But it's the aggressive play that we love about Rory's game. If he lost that, I think he'd lose what makes him so special.

Winning is what makes him special.

Jawgap

Seve OB wrote: »

If Rory played conservatively last Sunday to try and "think" his way around the course I can see two things that could have resulted.

Less mistakes, instead of 6 bogeys, he may of well had close to none.

But

Less Birdies, and possibly less pars. It is his aggressive style the enables him to make amazing scores. Playing sensibly has it's place, but it will always come at a cost.

His aggressive play certainly makes him much better 'box office' than Spieth and a few others - who are like Ice Man to his Maverick!

But, perhaps the best approach would be to make sure you're in contention coming into the last round, then give it the beans!!!!

JIdontknow

Here is his pga tour stats for 2016, and other years in the dropdown.
http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.28237.rory-mcilroy.html/statistics

Domo1982

Jawgap wrote: »

His aggressive play certainly makes him much better 'box office' than Spieth and a few others - who are like Ice Man to his Maverick!

But, perhaps the best approach would be to make sure you're in contention coming into the last round, then give it the beans!!!!

Sorry not seeing this box office thing. Tiger was box office - big style box office. Rory ain't in my eyes. Like comparing Lewis Hamilton to Senna.

Seve OB

Only 47.5% sand saves ranked 130. Wow. thought he was better than that. normally sand saves are pretty much bread and butter for these guys.

Of course I'm presuming these are greenside bunkers.

Jawgap

Domo1982 wrote: »

Sorry not seeing this box office thing. Tiger was box office - big style box office. Rory ain't in my eyes. Like comparing Lewis Hamilton to Senna.

It's all relative - Tiger was no Seve