When will austerity end in Ireland?

Uriel.

Count Dooku wrote: »

Even if IFCO will decide to ban something "Life of Brian-2", people will still will be able to watch in North or buy DVD/BR through internet. Kids can download it from internet and watch on their smartphones. Whole idea of national regulation is pointless now, if you don't have language barriers.

IFCO do much more than ban movies though. The clue is in the name - it classifies films, providing an important social service so that for example, parents can see, quite literally at a glance the suitability of movie. The fact that kids have work arounds is not justification for having a free for all situation. Should we also remove minimum ages for the purchase of alcohol and cigarettes? We know kids can get alcohol/cigarettes in round-about-ways so why regulate it at all?

BTW, ratings are not copyright protected

Who said they were?

Have you any idea of the statutory framework upon which the IFCO acts?

Do you have any examples of real work from this "think tank"?
Taoiseach has Dail as think tank.

The Dáil is not an appropriate think tank. It doesn't have the cross sectoral input or vision of NESC, it doesn't have political independence obviously and it certainly doesn't have the capacity or desire, understandably for unbiased research. NESC do have all of these things, in different quantities/measures perhaps, but are far more appropriate to advise on long-term strategic policy compared to the Oireachtas. NESC undertakes and produces significant research on very specific matters

More autonomy without income taxes stayed in local government is pointless.
If you want local Governments be more independent, then introduce "federal" and local taxes.

It could be argued that we are slowly, but maybe not entirely, moving towards that situation. Property taxes for example may in the future reside locally, rates etc.. already do.

But even if all LG funding was provided from a central fund and not through local money raising and budgetary independence, I can see a great need for an agency like the LGMA - it provides for all LGs to work together at helicopter level, gain economies of scale, consistency in policy making and policy application and many other things besides.

So to be clear, are you just one of the random ranters, or have you bothered to properly research your arguments? and come up with a strong basis for abolishing specific Agencies?

So far you have provided any sort of coherent argument. You started off targeting the fisheries/sea sector - provided no argument for same, then straight away jumped to a second random list of specific agencies, again not providing any argument for targeting them. I have a strong feeling you googled "list of state agencies in Ireland" and just randomly selected names from the list.

Count Dooku

Uriel. wrote: »

IFCO do much more than ban movies though. The clue is in the name - it classifies films, providing an important social service so that for example, parents can see, quite literally at a glance the suitability of movie. The fact that kids have work arounds is not justification for having a free for all situation. Should we also remove minimum ages for the purchase of alcohol and cigarettes?

Not really, copying age limitations from UK will be enough.
How many movies last 5 years had age ratings different from UK?

Uriel. wrote: »

The Dáil is not an appropriate think tank. It doesn't have the cross sectoral input or vision of NESC, it doesn't have political independence obviously and it certainly doesn't have the capacity or desire, understandably for unbiased research. NESC do have all of these things, in different quantities/measures perhaps, but are far more appropriate to advise on long-term strategic policy compared to the Oireachtas. NESC undertakes and produces significant research on very specific matters

usual "social partnership" type of waffling when IBEC and IMPACT are in the same bed. Why ISME excluded from NESC?

Uriel. wrote: »

But even if all LG funding was provided from a central fund and not through local money raising and budgetary independence, I can see a great need for an agency like the LGMA - it provides for all LGs to work together at helicopter level, gain economies of scale, consistency in policy making and policy application and many other things besides.

So why this job cannot be done within Department?

Uriel.

Count Dooku wrote: »

Not really, copying age limitations from UK will be enough.
How many movies last 5 years had age ratings different from UK?

I don't know, you tell me - you're advocating the change, it's your responsibility to prove that it is worthwhile.

Is there anything else we should outsource to the UK also?

Off the top of my head, I can see legal issues regarding doing this for example. What would "copying" from Britain achieve anyway? We still need an office(and staff) to process classifications in respect of the Irish classification system and legislation. Sovereignty issues aside, I can't see were the saving is going to be.

usual "social partnership" type of waffling when IBEC and IMPACT are in the same bed. Why ISME excluded from NESC?

Waffle? An agency that undertakes research and produces strategy and guidance where most (all?) pillars of society have an input?

As far as I understand it, ISME were excluded historically due to there being other small business representative organisations (within IBEC?) and to include ISME could have led to watered down/competing views from organisations supposedly representing the same type of people - thus weakening overall small business' voice. Perhaps there is now today a rationale for including ISME, I don't know.

So why this job cannot be done within Department?

The Department is central line department and deals with predominately policy matters at central/broad level and obviously will be heavily influenced politically.

LGMA has very different functions - such as day to day policy, management and running of LG. The Department has a marginal or helicopter role in such (as should be the case. In addition, issues such as procurement are not centre issues, it is a matter for LGs themselves to manage their spend as best as possible. The Department would not be a suitable home for such. It's like saying why does the GAA have county boards, all decisions and running of counties should be done from GAA HQ.


Are you going to provide some costing or research findings at any point? or are you just going to keep dancing around?

Count Dooku

Uriel. wrote: »

I don't know, you tell me - you're advocating the change, it's your responsibility to prove that it is worthwhile.

Checked 50 movies, mostly the same apart from useless division between 15A and 16

Uriel. wrote: »

Is there anything else we should outsource to the UK also?

Welfare fraud detection - they have very good private companies to do that

Uriel. wrote: »

Off the top of my head, I can see legal issues regarding doing this for example. What would "copying" from Britain achieve anyway? We still need an office(and staff) to process classifications in respect of the Irish classification system and legislation.

I don't see any point to have 15A and 16 ratings
You need one-two clerks, nothing else

Uriel. wrote: »

Waffle? An agency that undertakes research and produces strategy and guidance where most (all?) pillars of society have an input?

As far as I understand it, ISME were excluded historically due to there being other small business representative organisations (within IBEC?) and to include ISME could have led to watered down/competing views from organisations supposedly representing the same type of people - thus weakening overall small business' voice. Perhaps there is now today a rationale for including ISME, I don't know.

One of the biggest pillar deliberately removed

Small enterprises accounted for 50.4% of total persons engaged, 30.4% of turnover and 30.5% of gross value added.

Probably because they independent from trade unions, so they don't have to agree with everything what ICTU/IMPACT will propose
Effectively NESC is more about vested interests representation than anything else

Count Dooku

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Thos first two links you said do the same job well that would be because they are the same organisation.
If you had bothered to read the FOI.gov.ie site and the link you provided from it you would have seen that it simply provides a link back to the first site. www.IFCO.ie

:rolleyes:

IFCO’s address is: Blackhall Walk, Smithfield, Dublin 7, Ireland
Censorship of Films Appeal Board address is: 16 Harcourt Terrace, Dublin 2, Ireland

Uriel.

Count Dooku wrote: »

Checked 50 movies, mostly the same apart from useless division between 15A and 16



Welfare fraud detection - they have very good private companies to do that


I don't see any point to have 15A and 16 ratings
You need one-two clerks, nothing else

Why not just reunite entirely with the UK then?

Oh by the way, do you have an approximate figure in mind as to how much savings would be produced by outsourcing IFCO's work? or just copying Britain? Do you have any idea as to the cost to the exchequer of running IFCO on a yearly basis? I bet you haven't researched it... You might get a surprise.

One of the biggest pillar deliberately removed

Eh, please read my post. Not removed, represented by IBEC. I'll spoonfeed you though. There's the rationale. Does the position remain the same today, I don't know. But the "biggest pillar" has not been removed.


So any argument and figures yet to show the savings and rationale for closing any of these agencies, or are you going to continue to avoid this?

Count Dooku

Uriel. wrote: »

Why not just reunite entirely with the UK then?

Make more sense to take as much as possible for free as compensation

Uriel. wrote: »

Oh by the way, do you have an approximate figure in mind as to how much savings would be produced by outsourcing IFCO's work? or just copying Britain? Do you have any idea as to the cost to the exchequer of running IFCO on a yearly basis? I bet you haven't researched it... You might get a surprise.

Not much, but it is only beginning
You can close Irish Aid Expert Advisory Group together with Irish Aid and save 650 millions, and nobody in Ireland will suffer

Uriel. wrote: »

Eh, please read my post. Not removed, represented by IBEC. I'll spoonfeed you though. There's the rationale. Does the position remain the same today, I don't know. But the "biggest pillar" has not been removed.

I see. Because NESC has Construction Industry Federation and IMPACT presented despite having in council IBEC and ICTU, it is clear for me now that social partnership was about developers and PS workers on expense of everybody else

micosoft

Count Dooku wrote: »

Make more sense to take as much as possible for free as compensation

To go from closing fisheries section to merging Ireland into the United Kingdom takes some shift in your "argument".

Count Dooku wrote: »

Not much, but it is only beginning
You can close Irish Aid Expert Advisory Group together with Irish Aid and save 650 millions, and nobody in Ireland will suffer

People will suffer. This has nothing to do with efficiency and more to do with your particular world view, which is not shared by most Irish People.

Count Dooku wrote: »

I see. Because NESC has Construction Industry Federation and IMPACT presented despite having in council IBEC and ICTU, it is clear for me now that social partnership was about developers and PS workers on expense of everybody else

What on earth has this to do with the discussion at hand? Face it - your shallow "close down the Quangos" call has no basis to support it.

Tigerandahalf

Ex-Bush adviser predicts 20 year austerity slump for Ireland unless we exit the euro.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/ex-bush-adviser-predicts-20-year-economic-slump-for-ireland-1.1546629

View

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Ex-Bush adviser predicts 20 year austerity slump for Ireland unless we exit the euro.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/ex-bush-adviser-predicts-20-year-economic-slump-for-ireland-1.1546629

Yawn, there is an endless stream of US commentators predicting doom and gloom for the various EU member states.

They could no doubt have made or make similiar predictions for some of the US states that suffered extremely badly in the housing slump there, yet if you notice they never actually advocate those states exit the US dollar.

When they start doing so then we can start taking these commentators seriously particularly if any US state actually follows their advice.

Tigerandahalf

I wouldn't agree with you. It is outside voices like these that we should be listening to. The very fact that she spoke at a Davy Stockbrokers event gives credence to what she is saying. The people within are lying to us - plain and simple. We are not recovering. There is no system in place in the EU (unlike the US) where taxes collected in the wealthier regions are distributed to the lower growth areas. If inflation does rise in Germany interest rates will go up. Then the mortgage holders in Ireland will be truly squeezed. We will then be in some pickle.

golfwallah

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with you. It is outside voices like these that we should be listening to. The very fact that she spoke at a Davy Stockbrokers event gives credence to what she is saying. The people within are lying to us - plain and simple. We are not recovering. There is no system in place in the EU (unlike the US) where taxes collected in the wealthier regions are distributed to the lower growth areas. If inflation does rise in Germany interest rates will go up. Then the mortgage holders in Ireland will be truly squeezed. We will then be in some pickle.

I think a bit of perspective is need here, after all the it has taken over 200 years of trial and error including civil war and booms & busts to bring the US dollar to where it is today. The Euro, on the other hand, has only commenced along its evolutionary path, so it is very early days yet. At the end of the day, the people in the Eurozone will determine whether the Euro project will succeed or not and many political leaders and economic commentators see the future of the EU and Euro as being inextricably linked.

As regards EU tax transfers - ever heard of the European Social Fund (ESF), that funded FAS amongst other things, and the CAP?

Interest rates will continue to go up and down in line with the market, whether we remain in the Euro or not.

Tigerandahalf

golfwallah wrote: »

As regards EU tax transfers - ever heard of the European Social Fund (ESF), that funded FAS amongst other things, and the CAP?

Interest rates will continue to go up and down in line with the market, whether we remain in the Euro or not.

But isn't this the very problem with the EU. The interest rate that may be needed in Ireland could be problematic in another EU country. In the boom period Ireland needed high interest rates to slow down borrowing but Germany got what it wanted which was low interest rates to keep its economy growing. It was a disaster for Ireland.

skafish

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Ex-Bush adviser predicts 20 year austerity slump for Ireland unless we exit the euro.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/ex-bush-adviser-predicts-20-year-economic-slump-for-ireland-1.1546629

Based on the Bush logic, should we not start an illegal war to (further) line the pockets of a wealthy few political supporters (oil companies in the US, so I suppose the equivalent here would be property developers), while increasing our budget deficit to completely unsustainable levels.

Then we could fabricate some imagined crime against humanity to justify it all?:rolleyes::D

Given the history of the USA under successive Bush administrations, and indeed since, we should look anywhere but there for advice.

golfwallah

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

But isn't this the very problem with the EU. The interest rate that may be needed in Ireland could be problematic in another EU country. In the boom period Ireland needed high interest rates to slow down borrowing but Germany got what it wanted which was low interest rates to keep its economy growing. It was a disaster for Ireland.

I don't think it was just low interest rates that caused the problems for Ireland. After all, we signed up to join the Euro which required not just a reaction to interest rates but also good management of the economy.

My view is that poor management of the economy in the brave new world of the Euro caused the problem. Just because there are better engines and navigation equipment on an aeroplane, doesn't allow the captain to go asleep at the wheel, just as the weather conditions change slightly.

Someone still has to manage things and that applies just as much to the economy. You can't solely leave management of the economy to practices like self or light touch regulation, when your banking system places an unsustainable proportion of its loan book into property development - no matter what the interest rates are. Personal responsibility has to come into play somewhere in response to external factors like interest rates.

Gryire

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Ex-Bush adviser predicts 20 year austerity slump for Ireland unless we exit the euro.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/ex-bush-adviser-predicts-20-year-economic-slump-for-ireland-1.1546629

It will be 20 years either way. Exiting the Euro means big devaluation on our new currency. Wages will similarily be devalued.

ferretone

You simply cannot directly compare the US with the EU. The whole problem has been that we have had currency union without federal union, which means that individual federal policy and economy has only been able to be reflected in strength of currency by the largest/strongest nations. Hence debt levels in small nations that could in time have been inflated away from, are now set in stone, probably for generations, leading to a relative stagnation in our economy. Which, again, will be difficult to escape within this generation.

As Gryire says, devaluation would lead to wage devaluation, but I'm not sure that would be such a bad thing. Wages are dropping in the private sector all the time, and jobs are vanishing almost as quickly. Or going to 3-day weeks, whatever. At least a currency devaluation would make it easier for private sector companies to compete with their foreign counterparts.

And would also be probably be the only way to bring down the relative cost of overpaid unionised public sector workers: their wages are set in stone, so a currency devaluation would see the value of their wages decrease. Valuable frontline workers could be given increments to keep abreast of inflation, while useless, unnecessary administrators could see theirs drop to the point where it might almost be worth their while to try moving to the private sector, if any of them actually have any skills anyone thinks they might need.

I can't see the benefit of remaining a high-wage economy, when all it leads to is an insane cost of living, which means that hard-pressed private-sector workers trying to keep their jobs viable, have to pay high taxes just to keep the unemployed masses above the inflated bread-line, while beleaguered essential public services are held to ransom by the elite few highly-paid workers and luxuriously retired at the top of the tree.

That isn't the way the Troika or the EU are actually forcing us to have it, or even want it, but hey, we're a sovereign state, so what our fat cats say, goes!

Edited to add: Please don't anyone see this as an attack on those "unemployed masses": as I said, I am aware these payments are only keeping you above the breadline, which I believe everyone is entitled to, at the least!

who_ru

ferretone wrote: »

It's obvious already, what road our government is going down, to try and move towards balancing the books. As regards our inflated budget, at any rate. Previous governments have set in stone the high pay-rates for public sector and semi-private employees: that and their massive pensions. Nothing we can do about those people.

So we gouge the new people moving in to replace those as they retire. We put them on 1 year contracts at best, no job security, much lower wages, no pension promises at all. I'm not even talking about myself, I'm much older, and lost my job a while ago, I'm a lost cause :P I'm just seeing what's happening to people around me, and how the people some years ahead cut sweet deals for themselves, which are leaving the younger people coming in behind absolutely desolate. Particularly in the teaching profession. I honestly don't know how older teachers can look younger ones in the face, knowing what they have done to them

the unions did that - right across the public sector.

Sheldons Brain

Wages are dropping in the private sector all the time, and jobs are vanishing almost as quickly.

There is no evidence of this. Wages are rising and employment is rising. Public sector wages have fallen, but not private sector ones overall.

The is a problem with debt, including government debt. By devaluing merely makes it harder to repay this debt, unless you simply don't repay it and you could default without devaluing.

BuilderPlumber

Gryire wrote: »

It will be 20 years either way. Exiting the Euro means big devaluation on our new currency. Wages will similarily be devalued.

Until governments adopt a policy where they care about their country and its people, this austerity and other cr@p will continue. The attitude now is: take all you can from the people, assume the private sector can provide the services and the government doesn't provide much, and give nothing to the private sector either! I'm sick of the poor/middle class bailing out the rich and this is what we are about and where we are at as a state. It is disgusting. It is much WORSE than this so-called abortion legislation, yet I see no politicians leaving any parties at present due to opposition of their parties' dictatorial policies.

Taxburden carrier

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

There is no evidence of this. Wages are rising and employment is rising. Public sector wages have fallen, but not private sector ones overall.

The is a problem with debt, including government debt. By devaluing merely makes it harder to repay this debt, unless you simply don't repay it and you could default without devaluing.

Hi Enda !

who_ru

CruelCoin

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

How much are people prepared to put up with and where/when will it all end?

Hopefully not before johny-ah-be-jaysus stops giving out 3 potatoes for every 2 he brings in begorah-me-jaysus.