E collar

aaronsharkey

I am trying to get my dog to stop chasing sheep and was advised e collar was the solution does anyone know where I can find one that isn't extremely expensive? Is this one a good one http://www.amazon.co.uk/KitMaster%C2%AE-Remote-Control-Display-Training/dp/B003VXVEUS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379274149&sr=8-1&keywords=Electric+collar
thanks

Pumpkinseeds

OP there has got to be a better way than putting a shock collar on the dog. I hope other more dog informed posters can help you find a more humane solution. I'm not having a dig at you but I think shock collars should be banned.

Toulouse

If I were you I would spend the money fencing my property securely.

Your dog already knows what reward is waiting on the other side of the shock so he may just take the hit.

The only way you can guarantee your dogs safety is by fencing your property so that he can't get out. A farmer is perfectly within his rights to shoot if he finds your dog on his property so it only takes one escape. Now be that down to collar failure or strong will, it's just not a risk I would take with my dog.

DBB

Who advised you to use an e-collar op?
Is the dog escaping from your property to chase sheep, or is it whilst you're out on walks that this happens?

aonb

How old is the dog?
I brought my dogs when they were young, into a small paddock with a pair of rams. With the permission of the farmer. The dogs were on a leash. I rattled a bucket of pellets - the rams came running, and jostled us to get at the feed. Frightened the life out of the dogs, but they never went near a sheep again.

It worked for us, we are surrounded by sheep here, have our garden fenced in completely, but when out walking, it was always a worry. Problem solved, painlessly, quickly and efficiently, and the dogs have always been able to be walked off-leash.

aaronsharkey

I walk the dog on the curragh they arent my sheep the farmers let them out on the curragh, I walk him from my house in a town to the curragh and let him off his lead. His is a 10 month old siberian and my dad put my other dog in with sheep when he was training her, I will see if I can talk to a farmer and ask him if something like that.

muddypaws

aaronsharkey wrote: »

I walk the dog on the curragh they arent my sheep the farmers let them out on the curragh, I walk him from my house in a town to the curragh and let him off his lead. His is a 10 month old siberian and my dad put my other dog in with sheep when he was training her, I will see if I can talk to a farmer and ask him if something like that.

A siberian husky? Please do some research, they have a very high prey drive, and will kill sheep, they should never be allowed off lead in an unenclosed area, and especially not anywhere that has livestock within 10 miles, they can cover miles in minutes. Talk to your breeder, they will tell you not to let him off lead. And giving a husky an electric shock to stop him killing sheep will not work, the prey drive is so high, that the electric shock will mean nothing to him.

223vmax

Nothing wrong with using an e-collar in certain circumstances and when used correctly. I've used them on dogs and wouldnt hesitate in using them again.

DBB

Quite apart from the fact that Siberian huskies should not be left off lead, particularly where it has easy access to livestock, why do people keep insisting on frightening the sh!te of their dog, rather than using some fairly straightforward training to stop these sorts of problems?
Put him in a pen with a ram? Frighten the sh!te out of both dog and ram?
Soooo, if your dog barks at kids, sure why not arm a bunch of kids with hurls and stick the dog in a room with them!
Put a shock collar on him instead? A dog in full adrenaline-fuelled chase mode? A piece of gear with so many potential side-effects? Quite apart from the fact that effective punishment needs exquisite timing... How many owners have this skill? Or even know of the need for it?
Is it too much to ask that owners are instead advised to work on a solid recall, backed up by using a longline, and working on the dog's owner focus in the presence of livestock?

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

Nothing wrong with using an e-collar in certain circumstances and when used correctly. I've used them on dogs and wouldnt hesitate in using them again.

Not when there are more ethical alternatives. These may take longer, but completely eliminate the very real possibility of doing more harm than good with an e-collar.

223vmax

DBB wrote: »

Not when there are more ethical alternatives. These may take longer, but completely eliminate the very real possibility of doing more harm than good with an e-collar.

When used correctly they are an excellent training aid.

Nody

223vmax wrote: »

When used correctly they are an excellent training aid.

Better explained by DBB.

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

When used correctly they are an excellent training aid.

I'm not disputing that.
But just because they can, in the right hands, be an excellent training aid, does not mean it's okay to use them.
Particularly in light of the fact that livestock-chasing can be and is successfully dealt with using non-physical, non-coercive techniques, using a piece of gear that delivers an at best deeply unpleasant shock to the neck just doesn't hold any ground.

223vmax

DBB wrote: »

I'm not disputing that.
But just because they can, in the right hands, be an excellent training aid, does not mean it's okay to use them.
Particularly in light of the fact that livestock-chasing can be and is successfully dealt with using non-physical, non-coercive techniques, using a piece of gear that delivers an at best deeply unpleasant shock to the neck just doesn't hold any ground.

Sorry you are wrong. NO shock is delivered but rather a tingling sensation. This is however rarely used and the beep function is used more frequently. My comments are made in the context of correct use.
Those that abuse animals with such devices are also more likely to use other objects to inflict pain on their pets. Then there is no difference between an E-Collar and piece of timber. That is all.

DBB

Okay... Can you tell me how a "light tingling sensation" would affect what the dog is doing?
Do you not agree that for it to work, it must be unpleasant for the dog? Indeed, for a punishment to be really effective, there are two conditions which must be met:
1. It must be perfectly timed so that the dog makes the required association, and
2. It must be sufficiently unpleasant to convince the dog to stop.

In addition, it is wholly recognised by learning theorists and behavioural practitioners that the potential fall-out from using aversive methods of training is significant, and worryingly, often not recognised, or at best underestimated by those who use aversives in the name of training.

In addition, I do hear people who use them trying to justify them by describing the sensation as, amongst other things, a "light tingle" (isn't it interesting how people try to verbally lessen the impact of these aversive training tools... Instead of a shock, it's a "stimulation" or a "light tingle", a choke chain becomes a "check chain", a prong collar becomes a "pinch collar"... The semantics!) However, having tried them on myself (and I'll admit I've only tried them on my hand, not on the front of my neck), I will vehemently disagree that it's a "light tingling sensation". It hurts. It hurts enough to make me gasp, utter an expletive, and rub my hand which is still smarting several minutes later. It's not the worst pain I've ever experienced, but I don't want to experience again either. I have seen them make others cry. My ex-landlord had one in his pocket which he accidentally activated and shocked his hand, he had to go to his gp afterwards with chest pain.
I have also seen more than one dog react to the warning beep by hitting the deck , shivering. I have seen them attack the nearest living thing, be it human, other dog, or livestock. I have heard them yelp many times. And these were not necessarily dogs who'd been shocked many times, but once or twice. Why would they do these things in response to a "light tingle"? No, for it to work, it's got to be a tad more aversive than a "light tingle".
So, I'm sorry, you can justify them whatever way you like, but in my opinion, and indeed in the opinion of every well respected dog training and dog behaviour professional association in the world, it is not acceptable to use shock collars on dogs in the name of training, particularly because it is entirely possible to invest a little time and consideration into training the dog not to carry out undesirable behaviours using ethical, hands-off, non-remote controlled training.
But like I say, good training takes longer. E-collars are simply a substitute for people who either don't understand good dog training, or who are just too lazy to bother.

aonb

DBB wrote: »

Quite apart from the fact that Siberian huskies should not be left off lead, particularly where it has easy access to livestock, why do people keep insisting on frightening the sh!te of their dog, rather than using some fairly straightforward training to stop these sorts of problems?
Put him in a pen with a ram? Frighten the sh!te out of both dog and ram?
Soooo, if your dog barks at kids, sure why not arm a bunch of kids with hurls and stick the dog in a room with them!
Put a shock collar on him instead? A dog in full adrenaline-fuelled chase mode? A piece of gear with so many potential side-effects? Quite apart from the fact that effective punishment needs exquisite timing... How many owners have this skill? Or even know of the need for it?
Is it too much to ask that owners are instead advised to work on a solid recall, backed up by using a longline, and working on the dog's owner focus in the presence of livestock?

DBB I have a real problem with your response to this.
My dogs are terriers - Jrt/patterdale crosses, high hunt drive.
To enable them to be safe (not be shot by a farmer) I spent hundreds enclosing an acre of garden. I am a responsible owner. Training a JRT to do anything when its in huntmode is impossible. I defy you to disagree with this - or else you dont know JRTs
To enable them to be able to be off leash walking deserted country lanes, lined with fields of sheep, I brought my dogs on a leash into a paddock (not a pen), rattled a tin to call two young rams, the DOGS were JOSTLED by me and the rams moving about with the tin of feed. The Rams werent even put out by the dogs, yes the dogs were frightened by the proximity of the two rams, Neither ram nor dog had the '****e frightened' out of him, yes the dogs will steer clear of sheep now - can you honestly say training (alone) would work on a JRT/Patterdale terrier - basic recall is beyond this breed, when in hunt mode, most of the time! Can you honestly say that that 5 minutes of being jostled (and yes frightened) by 2 rams was not justified by the years since of daily walks off leash, and no worries crossing any field we choose??

223vmax

DBB - Can you explain the extent of your experience/qualification in training dogs and what breeds you've worked with in order to express such opinions please?

DBB

@aonb
You surely know my answer to this! No, I don't feel it necessary to use fear to train a dog, and I think it's a cop-out to say your dog is hard to train because of being a terrier.
I know terriers like the back of my hand. I love them. I eat and breathe them (not literally!). I celebrate their stubbornness. But being stubborn, independent and determined is not an excuse to resort to fear to train them. It takes more effort, more work with some individuals, but it is utterly possible to do it ethically with a bit of insight and persistence. I've done it countless times with countless "untrainable" dogs, as has every good trainer who refuses to resort to any form of fear in the name of training.
Remember that people read these forums in years to come... I dread to think of what becomes of dogs when owners feel validated to frighten their dogs to get a quick result, because of what they read here. At least Mr. Milan puts a "do not try this at home" warning on his potentially dangerous advice.

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

DBB - Can you explain the extent of your experience/qualification in training dogs and what breeds you've worked with in order to express such opinions please?

I'm not going to answer this directly because it'll make me readily identifiable. If you care to see my credentials in dog training, I can pm you if you so wish. Suffice to say, I am in a position to express a professional and evidence-based opinion.
But in the process, perhaps you could return the favour and let me know what your experience/qualification in training dogs and what breeds you've worked with in order to express your opinions, please!

muddypaws

223vmax wrote: »

DBB - Can you explain the extent of your experience/qualification in training dogs and what breeds you've worked with in order to express such opinions please?

As DBB has said, she doesn't want to put that info up here, but she is highly respected, and I recently attended a seminar where she was one of the speakers.

aonb

ok DBB, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I adore my dogs (like you - live/breathe them) but I can still justify that few minutes years ago, of their being scared (NOT terrified!) - as a result of which they have miles of walks off leash daily, and miles of field crossing without issue, and are safe in our sheep-packed-countryside.

My dogs will come/sit/stay/leave it and obey many many other commands, but if either is after a rabbit (or whatever) in a field, ALL commands are completely ignored :rolleyes:

If a terrier (or other breed) is after prey would one of yours come/stay/leave it??? Do you believe that there is an untrainable dog? (Disclaimer: Im just this asking out of curiosity!)

223vmax

muddypaws wrote: »

As DBB has said, she doesn't want to put that info up here, but she is highly respected, and I recently attended a seminar where she was one of the speakers.

To be fair, your opinion of "highly respected" and "speaking at a seminar" means absolutely nothing. Some peoples training methods differ greatly and we're never going to agree on here. It becomes a brow beating contest and I for one am not getting involved in that.

I have trained many working gun dogs. ESS, Labs, retrievers, pointers.......The collar is invaluable in some instances. In some cases your working against the dogs natural instinct - its not easy......

I can honestly say that I have never abused a dog with an e-collar so please don't imply that using a collar is cruel. It isn't! I've trained many dogs without using it.

muddypaws

223vmax wrote: »

To be fair, your opinion of "highly respected" and "speaking at a seminar" means absolutely nothing. Some peoples training methods differ greatly and we're never going to agree on here. It becomes a brow beating contest and I for one am not getting involved in that.

I have trained many working gun dogs. ESS, Labs, retrievers, pointers.......The collar is invaluable in some instances. In some cases your working against the dogs natural instinct - its not easy......

I can honestly say that I have never abused a dog with an e-collar so please don't imply that using a collar is cruel. It isn't! I've trained many dogs without using it.

OK, someone answers your question and you choose to belittle it, no problem. Maybe pm DBB and get her qualifications, and perhaps then you'll realise how qualified and experienced she is, but from the tone of your posts, I doubt that you'll accept that either.

Nothing will make me change my mind that using a collar that punishes a dog is not cruel.

DBB

aonb wrote: »

If a terrier (or other breed) is after prey would one of yours come/stay/leave it??? Do you believe that there is an untrainable dog? (Disclaimer: Im just this asking out of curiosity!)

No, I don't believe that any healthy dog is untrainable, that's why I put that word in quotes in my above post.
One problem that trainers/behaviourists have to deal with is predatory chasing. It requires more than just teaching a good recall when it's (chasing) is established, but it is entirely do-able, with any healthy dog.

muddypaws

DBB wrote: »

No, I don't believe that any healthy dog is untrainable, that's why I put that word in quotes in my above post.
One problem that trainers/behaviourists have to deal with is predatory chasing. It requires more than just teaching a good recall when it's (chasing) is established, but it is entirely do-able, with any healthy dog.

We'll have to disagree on that one, as I do believe that the prey drive is so hard wired in some breeds that no training can overcome it.

223vmax

muddypaws wrote: »

Nothing will make me change my mind that using a collar that punishes a dog is not cruel.

You have it wrong. I don't punish the dog with the collar!!

I don't use the collar if the dog doesn't do something I want it to do!

Reward the dog when he gets it right but I ignore when he does it wrong. When I use the collar it is used to get his attention by using either the beep or tingle. When you setup the collar you start at the lowest setting and then watch for the dogs reaction. When the dog starts to scratch at the collar when activated then that's the correct level. Any flinching, crying then that's abuse!!!

muddypaws

223vmax wrote: »

You have it wrong. I don't punish the dog with the collar!!

I don't use the collar if the dog doesn't do something I want it to do!

Reward the dog when he gets it right but I ignore when he does it wrong. When I use the collar it is used to get his attention by using either the beep or tingle. When you setup the collar you start at the lowest setting and then watch for the dogs reaction. When the dog starts to scratch at the collar when activated then that's the correct level. Any flinching, crying then that's abuse!!!

So if you're just using it to get a dog's attention, why can you not use a whistle, or a shout?

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

To be fair, your opinion of "highly respected" and "speaking at a seminar" means absolutely nothing. Some peoples training methods differ greatly and we're never going to agree on here. It becomes a brow beating contest and I for one am not getting involved in that.

I have trained many working gun dogs. ESS, Labs, retrievers, pointers.......The collar is invaluable in some instances. In some cases your working against the dogs natural instinct - its not easy......

I can honestly say that I have never abused a dog with an e-collar so please don't imply that using a collar is cruel. It isn't! I've trained many dogs without using it.

I'm not getting into browbeating either, but I will argue against people who will not read, nor respect the evidence against using shock collars to train dogs.
With all respect, you didn't need to post that you've trained gundogs, I knew as soon as I read your first post that this is what you do, because as a collective group gundog folk are easy to spot when they start talking about training. Having worked with many a gundog handler, as a collective group ye have a long way to go to comply with modern, evidence-based, research-led training approaches. There is no bigger a collective group of people in Dogdom who will not accept that just because ye have been doing something a certain way for years, doesn't make it right, nor the best way.
I've worked with some fab field trials lads, who were sick of this almost ubiquitous approach of resorting to shock collars, lifting dogs by the skin under the ears, blasting whistles into their ears, dragging dogs back to a required spot, so they asked me how to build ethics and welfare into their training. These same lads started to win trials from then on, all of them commenting on how more effectively and happily their dogs now worked. This was in the face of ridicule from the "traditional" trainers. They soon silenced their detractors.
Every respected dog training and dog behaviour association disagrees with your contention that shock collars are not cruel. If you refuse to question why that is, then you will continue to stay amongst the "traditional" gundog men.
Again, to reiterate, please do let me know if you'd like me to pm you with my experience and credentials. I'm only too happy to discuss this with you in private.

223vmax

muddypaws wrote: »

So if you're just using it to get a dog's attention, why can you not use a whistle, or a shout?

Because in some cases when the dog is close you can have them on the stop whistle without problems. Then when you increase the distance between yourself and the dog sometimes they try their luck and ignore you!! 1st step here is ignore the dog ignoring you and go back to a shorter distance and re-enforce the stop whistle with positive reward, then in time increasing the distance. But some cases they get to a certain distance and just don't respond to the whistle in that case the e-collar is used. They soon learn that you have some control over distance its not fool proof but does help.

Now if you used the e-collar to shock/punish the dog in that example then the dog would have no idea what happened and could turn into a wreck not leave your side! I've seen an example of this in a field. The owner 'shocked' the dog in a certain part of a field. That same dog never went back into the same part of the field for a long time. The dog had no idea that the owner had shocked him and associated it with the certain area of field.

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

When you setup the collar you start at the lowest setting and then watch for the dogs reaction. When the dog starts to scratch at the collar when activated then that's the correct level. Any flinching, crying then that's abuse!!!

And here is a perfect example of your lack of understanding about how punishment works.
If you're going to punish, to be effective, it's got to be big. It's got to be so unpleasant to the dog that he immediately stops what he's doing, every time.
By starting off low, with the shock being a mild irritant, that's all it is... An irritant. The dog can quickly habituate to this. So what happens next? The collar has to be turned up a bit. And the dog habituates again. Until eventually, the dog is getting a big shock that he pays little heed to.
This happens all the time, it is one of the ways in which these collars are quietly, insidiously abused by people who don't fully understand what's going on when you press that button.
To illustrate, here's a link to a review of the type of research and consequent evidence upon which I base my opinions:
http://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2013/06/the-end-for-shock-collars.html?m=1

What do you use as rewards 223vmax? I'm guessing praise, is it? A pat on the head maybe?

DBB

muddypaws wrote: »

We'll have to disagree on that one, as I do believe that the prey drive is so hard wired in some breeds that no training can overcome it.

You might have a read of David Ryan (ex APBC chair) book on the subject:
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/stop-how-to-control-predatory-chasing-in-dogs/