E collar

223vmax

Sorry I got as far as "The DEFRA studies aimed" then closed the page. They are the anti blood sports brigade! Those idiots are partly responsible for the fox hunting ban in the UK.....

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

You have it wrong. I don't punish the dog with the collar!!

I don't use the collar if the dog doesn't do something I want it to do

But, you DO punish the dog with the collar! Do you understand what punishment is?
It is providing a consequence that makes an animal less likely to carry out the preceding behaviour.
You would not be using a collar UNLESS you were using it as a punishment!
Ethical trainers also use punishments, but they are carefully used and only forms of punishment that are known not to cause damage are used, e.g. time outs, with-holding an expected reward.
But they don't use aversive punishments, including shock collars, choke chains etc, because the potential for fall-out is too high. You yourself have already given an example of this with the dog running up the field.
You also say that you "dont use the collar if the dog doesn't do something I want it to do", but then go on to give an example of doing just that! You use the collar to stop the dog from ignoring you when you want him to pay attention!
Another example, if I may say, of not really having a full grasp of what it's all about!

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

Sorry I got as far as "The DEFRA studies aimed" then closed the page. They are the anti blood sports brigade! Those idiots are partly responsible for the fox hunting ban in the UK.....

Errr, they are the Uk Department of the Environment and Rural Affairs! Hardly some "brigade"! However, if you'll take your fingers out of your ears for just a moment, and stop coming up with silly excuses not to read the research, you might notice that the research was done by university researchers, and has been independently peer-reviewed by other behavioural scientists worldwide.
Go on. Open your mind. Break with tradition! Educate yourself!

muddypaws

223vmax wrote: »

Sorry I got as far as "The DEFRA studies aimed" then closed the page. They are the anti blood sports brigade! Those idiots are partly responsible for the fox hunting ban in the UK.....

DEFRA is a government department in the UK, department for food, environment and rural affairs. Calling them the anti blood sports brigade and idiots shows your lack of knowledge and understanding. You could say they are responsible for the badger cull that is currently taking place, if you also wanted to be incorrect about that. Decisions are made at cabinet level, and they carry out those decisions.

Kinzig

muddypaws wrote: »

DEFRA is a government department in the UK, department for food, environment and rural affairs. Calling them the anti blood sports brigade and idiots shows your lack of knowledge and understanding. You could say they are responsible for the badger cull that is currently taking place, if you also wanted to be incorrect about that. Decisions are made at cabinet level, and they carry out those decisions.

To be honest and frank here, once he posted that response the debate was over:pac::pac:

Cuddlesworth

DBB wrote: »

To illustrate, here's a link to a review of the type of research and consequent evidence upon which I base my opinions:
http://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2013/06/the-end-for-shock-collars.html?m=1

The research seems to pin its hopes on the apprehension of the dogs being placed into the collars using analysed saliva as evidence. In context, its not really proof of anything but stating the obvious. The actual "response" to the training that's being reported on is too subjective to be considered non-biased.

So the report basically highlights that in specific limited periods of collar use, the dog fears the collar being placed on. You would get the same response from most people if you told them they were going to a kettle-bell class at the gym for the second time.

Keeping in mind that I don't believe in the collars either and I think the response above this post is typical of a lazy person reading something they don't understand. But the research linked is pretty weak overall.

DBB

Give me a chance, will you?!
I am on my phone and having problems cutting and pasting multiple links. I'm also trying to work at the same time!
When I get access to my laptop I'll provide more links.

aonb

DBB wrote: »

No, I don't believe that any healthy dog is untrainable, that's why I put that word in quotes in my above post.
One problem that trainers/behaviourists have to deal with is predatory chasing. It requires more than just teaching a good recall when it's (chasing) is established, but it is entirely do-able, with any healthy dog.

DBB - you are the professional/trained dog behaviourist here, I bow to your obviously superior experience/knowledge. I would love you to meet my two - or rather them to meet you :rolleyes: though

All I know is that two of my dogs - JRT/Patterdale mixes - that I absolutely adore, and are so gorgeous and well behaved and easily managed and happy and biddable, get what we call a RED HAZE over their eyes/brain when a rabbit or cat (or anything furry ) is in sight. They come back from the chase (never catch anything!!) looking worried/sad/sorry/upset/contrite, but hey, a small hairy terrier has to do what a small hairy terrier has to do!!! (disclaimer - we have never hit/chastised/shouted at our dogs when the Red Haze has cleared and they're back to biddable/easily managed/wellbehaved!!) (p.s. this Red Haze syndrome still affects the 15 year old fat, arthritic, dementia-addled terrier - but only for about 30 seconds these days!!)

johnmurph01

Im going to throw my oar in here.

I love my dog. Incredibly. I've spent 000's on training, socialization classes (as i dont know too many others with dogs etc) and invested oodles of time in training him in the ways of positive reinforcement. In spurts, in 5 mins x 4 times a day x 30 days a month. Perhaps I'm a crap trainer but I'm just a guy so I make no apologies for that. He is well looked after..better than me sometimes!

Sometimes though, he does things which push my buttons. Somethings he does don't have any consequence, others do (bad recall around roads) .

Example:

Going to park. Lunges and growls at other dogs. Solution: Put him in the boot of the car umpteen times and eventually bring him home and punish him by not letting him in the park with me. (general overview - don't pick it apart)

Results: Sweet FA. Less hair on my head. Strained relationship with dog, wife, everything. Cant have fun with dog, he becomes a royal pain.

Example 2: runs like a madman at cats walking on back wall. Solicits 3 complaints from surrounding neighbours. Barks like crazy, got himself a few slaps courtesy of yours truly, spent oodles of time in the bathroom alone as punishment (30 secs - 60 a time), spent oodles of time without toys. Tried him with treats to shut it. Again, perhaps crap trainer, but im a dog owner and dont claim to be dunbar or milan or whoever the hot trainer is these days.

Solution - after much soul searching. Ecollar.

Spent 100$ watching videos from what I consider to be well respected trainers, educating myself. Reading blogs/studies as per link above etc etc. All over about 3 months. Conditioned dog to collar (wore collar for 2 weeks with other collars in on/off/on/off style until it meant nothing to him). Shocked myself (it is a shock - lets be honest - not a tingle as far as im concerned), right to the max. If im giving him this, I want to know what its like first....yep, still going to proceed. Read manual, yep, still going to continue. Started on lowest setting, no notice, worked it to level 4 of 8 - he notices, shocked myself on it, yes, thats a pain.

(Note: Some people take shocks better than others, its a fact. Some people take arm locks in martial arts better than others, some dont - we're all different with different tolerances).

Within 1 week, all my problems gone (< 10 shocks). No more crazy barking. No anxiety in dog. Calm dog in garden, gets aroused at cats but is cool. Super calm around other dogs, tail wagging, very playful, solid recall. Never used full blast on collar.

Been like it for weeks now without having to recondition etc. I put it down to all the work done with PI and not relying solely on collar. My quality of life is great, dog has a MUCH better time as I'm happier to bring him out even more than before. Wife brings him out now (couldnt before as she couldnt control him), everyone happy. I would rather I didnt have to shock him 10 times but....on the upside...we have a happier relationship now, he's happier, I'm happier. No lingering on his bad behaviour. Its over and I'm glad.

Call me what you want and disagree accordingly but:

- I'm just a guy, not a trainer, I have a pet like.
- I've been to the classes
- I've been to the seminars
- I've used clickers, toys, treats (and continue to use them)
- I have spent a fortune.

I wouldnt use the ecollar lightly again but in this case, its worked wonders for me and my dog.

My advice is that if you are thinking of using an ecollar, make sure you've tried everything else first and use it as a last resort. I've binned mine now as I have a platform to continue with my training without it.

aaronsharkey

I am sure a big dog can survive a little shock, and he has to be the most docile dog in the world he doesn't go into attack mode and claw the sheep to death he just runs after them and after a short time he waddles his way back to me tail wagging and not covered in blood, All I wanted was a simple solution and not having him getting the ****e knocked out of by a ram or me being lectured by what seems to be the Irish branch of peta, I understand your love for dogs and I only asking for advice on an e collar, Thank you for your replies

borderlinemeath

aaronsharkey wrote: »

I am sure a big dog can survive a little shock, and he has to be the most docile dog in the world he doesn't go into attack mode and claw the sheep to death he just runs after them and after a short time he waddles his way back to me tail wagging and not covered in blood, All I wanted was a simple solution and not having him getting the ****e knocked out of by a ram or me being lectured by what seems to be the Irish branch of peta, I understand your love for dogs and I only asking for advice on an e collar, Thank you for your replies

You do realise that your dog running after sheep constitutes as 'worrying' sheep? If a farmer saw him doing it, he is within his right to shoot your dog and you could be liable for the costs of any sheep damaged. They can get hurt running together, they can die of heart failure or in springtime it's VERY easy for a sheep to abort a lamb with a fright of a dog running after her.

There is a very simple solution. Keep your dog on a lead. And it's a husky, a dog with a very high prey drive. From everything you've said, and from everything I know about the breed you are highly likely to lose your dog, either by getting shot, or knocked down, or simply one day ignoring you and not coming back.

Tranceypoo

aaronsharkey wrote: »

I am sure a big dog can survive a little shock, and he has to be the most docile dog in the world he doesn't go into attack mode and claw the sheep to death he just runs after them and after a short time he waddles his way back to me tail wagging and not covered in blood, All I wanted was a simple solution and not having him getting the ****e knocked out of by a ram or me being lectured by what seems to be the Irish branch of peta, I understand your love for dogs and I only asking for advice on an e collar, Thank you for your replies

Why don't you just keep him on a lead when there are sheep around...?

We have 2 dogs, one is a collie mix with what I imagine is a high prey drive, she 'stalks' sheep as soon as she spots one, she is never ever ever off her lead where there are sheep and we live in the country (and my husband is a farmer) so there are sheep everywhere, in fact there are only two places she is off lead, our back garden (fully enclosed) when me or my husband are out there or in the kitchen with the door open or the local sports pitch when there's no one else around, which is also fully fenced. I just would not and could not risk her injuring livestock, knowing that I could be affecting someone's income and living and more importantly risking my dogs life, it's not rocket science I don't understand why you'd risk it particularly with the breed of dog you have and other posters on here giving you the advice said breed!

muddypaws

aaronsharkey wrote: »

I am sure a big dog can survive a little shock, and he has to be the most docile dog in the world he doesn't go into attack mode and claw the sheep to death he just runs after them and after a short time he waddles his way back to me tail wagging and not covered in blood, All I wanted was a simple solution and not having him getting the ****e knocked out of by a ram or me being lectured by what seems to be the Irish branch of peta, I understand your love for dogs and I only asking for advice on an e collar, Thank you for your replies

Having worked in husky rescue for a number of years, and dealt with numerous phone calls from distraught owners whose dogs have been shot or seized for chasing sheep, not necessarily killing, just chasing, and with pounds who have huskies in that have strayed or been dumped, because of their prey drive, I didn't lecture you, I gave you advice based on a lot of experience, which is what I thought you were asking for. Not one single husky breed club or welfare organisation in the world advocates letting them off lead in an unenclosed area, perhaps there's a reason for that? Look into the history of the breed. I explained why an e collar will not work for a husky. And as for accusing people that have commented on here of being members of peta, they are one of the most vilified animal 'welfare' organisations there is. I most certainly do not support them in any way. They wouldn't allow you to have a husky, as dogs shouldn't be pets, again, maybe do some research before you insult people.

DBB

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

The research seems to pin its hopes on the apprehension of the dogs being placed into the collars using analysed saliva as evidence. In context, its not really proof of anything but stating the obvious. The actual "response" to the training that's being reported on is too subjective to be considered non-biased.

So the report basically highlights that in specific limited periods of collar use, the dog fears the collar being placed on. You would get the same response from most people if you told them they were going to a kettle-bell class at the gym for the second time.

Keeping in mind that I don't believe in the collars either and I think the response above this post is typical of a lazy person reading something they don't understand. But the research linked is pretty weak overall.

Okay, now I have a little time to address this.
I think you've been a little unfair on the report, and have not really reflected in your post what it actually says. Not only did they measure cortisol levels between dogs wearing collars and not, they measured behaviour: these behavioural responses are not subjective when they are tested across a range of subjects, where the behaviours are broken down into discrete, measurable parts using ethograms, and analysed using appropriate statistical models. It's how all animal behaviour is measured, whether it's a dog, a gorilla, or a blackbird.
They report these behavioural changes as "significant", which means that there was an appreciable and measurable statistical difference in behaviour between dogs trained on shock collars versus those who weren't.
It also doesn't say that dogs became more stressed simply by having the collar put on: they were more stressed just by wearing it because of associative learning, in other words, they were in constant anticipation of shock for the whole time they were wearing the collar. It wasn't just a momentary pulse of anxiety at the moment of putting the collar on.

Anyway, here are some more papers, or reviews of papers, where response to shock collars and other negative training methods has been measured, and all suggest that there are welfare concerns. Karen Overall, a woman who is so seriously respected worldwide as a vet, behaviourist, behavioural scientist etc (you can google her yourselves), in a letter written to the journals, stated that she knows of no research which shows that using shock collars has no effect on welfare.
Here goes:

The study discussed in the above link:
http://randd.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx?Menu=Menu&Module=More&Location=None&Completed=0&ProjectID=17568

http://randd.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx?Menu=Menu&Module=More&Location=None&Completed=0&ProjectID=15332

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1746-6148/8/93

http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878(07)00276-6/abstract

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/S0168-1591(06)00382-0/abstract

http://eldri.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232713013325&mode=prd


What the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC) have to say about shock collars:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars
http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/ethics_of_pet_containment_fences

And the Association of #pet Dog Trainers UK (APDT UK):
http://www.apdt.co.uk/news/latest-report-on-shock-collars-2013-06-21

All I wanted was a simple solution and not having him getting the ****e knocked out of by a ram or me being lectured by what seems to be the Irish branch of peta, I understand your love for dogs and I only asking for advice on an e collar, Thank you for your replies

I think this is an unfair comment OP. If you'd done a search before you asked the question, you'd have sen how emotive a topic this is. That aside, I think you're confusing your "Irish branch of PETA" with people who have the scientific research to back up their points, and perhaps understandably get a tad frustrated when people continue to completely ignore what the evidence says, and continue to use shock collars instead of investing a little more time and effort into training the dog properly in the first place.
Besides which, none of it was "you" being lectured by anyone... it was a discussion which rumbled along with or without you, and none of the comments were aimed at you at all. You asked the question, and you got plenty of answers... that's what discussion sites are for. No need to take it so personally!

aaronsharkey

I want to let the dog to run around and have abit of fun I am well aware of farmers capping dogs and that is why I have came here to seek advice and thank you for taking the time to reply

muddypaws

aaronsharkey wrote: »

I want to let the dog to run around and have abit of fun I am well aware of farmers capping dogs and that is why I have came here to seek advice and thank you for taking the time to reply

Get a harness, bungee line and get on your bike, or get a scooter, and let him work the way his breed is meant to, a good 3/4 mile a couple of times a week and he'll be happy as larry

tk123

johnmurph01 wrote: »

Going to park. Lunges and growls at other dogs. Solution: Put him in the boot of the car umpteen times and eventually bring him home and punish him by not letting him in the park with me. (general overview - don't pick it apart)

Results: Sweet FA. Less hair on my head. Strained relationship with dog, wife, everything. Cant have fun with dog, he becomes a royal pain.

Example 2: runs like a madman at cats walking on back wall. Solicits 3 complaints from surrounding neighbours. Barks like crazy, got himself a few slaps courtesy of yours truly, spent oodles of time in the bathroom alone as punishment (30 secs - 60 a time), spent oodles of time without toys. Tried him with treats to shut it. Again, perhaps crap trainer, but im a dog owner and dont claim to be dunbar or milan or whoever the hot trainer is these days.

What sticks out to me is that with the collar you were possibly able to instantly 'correct' the dog but without it you were in situations where you ended up correcting the dog after the event - eg bringing him home and putting out etc when he had no idea why he was being punished. Not trying to be preachy or anything just an observation. Timing is key - I can really see it with my pup because my other dog (being a dog) has perfect timing for telling her off so she learns faster from him that she does with us!

aaronsharkey

that sounds amazing

muddypaws

aaronsharkey wrote: »

that sounds amazing

If you look for the group Hiking and Mushing in Ireland on Facebook, there are a couple of people that run their dogs on the Curragh, could show you the set up and maybe let you have a go before you pay any money out yourself

aaronsharkey

get him to pull me on the bike ha

DBB

muddypaws wrote: »

Get a harness, bungee line and get on your bike, or get a scooter, and let him work the way his breed is meant to, a good 3/4 mile a couple of times a week and he'll be happy as larry

I had been going to say earlier that this is the best bit advice given on this thread, though it took a while!
I know a number of ordinary pet dog owners who went mad and bought a scooter, or a bike-connector, or a body-harness (for human and dog) for x-country running with your dog... and they're all just delighted with it, though the scootering has got to be the pick of them
A brilliant way to exercise a northern sled breed, can you imagine flying through the Curragh on a scooter pulled by your dog? I'm actually getting kinda envious now thinking about it

aaronsharkey

UPDATE
I tried using multiple methods of training like walking through a load of sheep with the dog on a long lead, Obedience Training and a few other but all have failed and that lead me to buying the e collar, I used it once and now my problem is solved and no sheep or dogs were killed in the process, The e collar worked wonders and I no longer have use for it, Thanks for the reply's

muddypaws

You say the e collar worked wonders, so I'm guessing that means that your dog started chasing livestock, you shocked him and he stopped? Lucky dog that a farmer didn't see him, dogs don't have to kill livestock to be classed as worrying them.

223vmax

aaronsharkey wrote: »

UPDATE
I tried using multiple methods of training like walking through a load of sheep with the dog on a long lead, Obedience Training and a few other but all have failed and that lead me to buying the e collar, I used it once and now my problem is solved and no sheep or dogs were killed in the process, The e collar worked wonders and I no longer have use for it, Thanks for the reply's

Glad you can relax a little bit more and enjoy your pet! One tip with the collar is often enough. Dont get into the situation where the dog cops on the tip is from the collar. Put the collar on a good while before you take him out so he doesn't make an association. Leave it on for a while after you bring the dog back as well.