Expectations Under Joe [MOD WARNING POST #1]

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Has Schmidt explained his selections for Leinster? Sorry, I've just not noticed much of what he has had to say.

Joe has not had too many difficult questions anyway because of his success record with Leinster, though its surprising that he got off lightly after some poor Pro 12 Final results and no one said anything really about not making the QFs in the Heineken Cup last season.

Lets wait and see how he deals with a few losses.

Leinster were incredibly unlucky between injuries/draw/kick off time in the HC last season and came within a whisker of going through while still playing decent rugby and despite not making the knock out phase of the HC Leinster still won a treble of trophies.

It took years of desperate performances from Ireland (barring the odd exception) for Kidney to be put under any slight bit of pressure by the media so I’m not sure what the point you’re trying to make is.

Foxtrol

Swiwi. wrote: »

Ah, you took the bait Quint2010 :mad:

Me too (as usual)

Tox56

Quint2010 wrote: »

Yeah I know. But in fairness I think it is a valid question to ask ie why wasn't Schmidt criticised more for Leinster's HC failure last season. He got off lightly because he had a fair amount of credit in the bank.

...Clermont were exceptional in the Aviva game. We somehow nearly won in the SMM without BOD, Kearney, Fitzgerald and Madigan at 15. I really don't think we were that bad in the H Cup last season, particularly keeping in mind the at times crippling injury list. It was that Aviva game that cost us, where Clermont were outstanding

jm08

Quint2010 wrote: »

Yeah I know. But in fairness I think it is a valid question to ask ie why wasn't Schmidt criticised more for Leinster's HC failure last season. He got off lightly because he had a fair amount of credit in the bank.

I agree with you there with regard to Leinster, but he has no credit in the Ireland bank.

Penney was asked what he thought of Ireland's chances against the ABs in the AIs and he said he thought the ABs would prevail. He said though that there are some really good young players coming through and he thought that Ireland might take the ABs if they meet in the world cup.

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Leinster were incredibly unlucky between injuries/draw/kick off time in the HC last season and came within a whisker of going through while still playing decent rugby and despite not making the knock out phase of the HC Leinster still won a treble of trophies.

It took years of desperate performances from Ireland (barring the odd exception) for Kidney to be put under any slight bit of pressure by the media so I’m not sure what the point you’re trying to make is.

Ireland had a long litany of injuries over the last year or so, particularly in the 6Ns this year.

You can't use injuries as an excuse.

thebaz

all I want to see is Ireland compete in a WC final - for Joe a semi final spot would be a success , but love to see us reach a WC final.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

...Clermont were exceptional in the Aviva game. We somehow nearly won in the SMM without BOD, Kearney, Fitzgerald and Madigan at 15. I really don't think we were that bad in the H Cup last season, particularly keeping in mind the at times crippling injury list. It was that Aviva game that cost us, where Clermont were outstanding

Leinster didn't score enough tries last season - Exeter in the RDS and Scarlets away were the ones that Leinster could have done better.

Leinster only missed qualifying by a try.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland had a long litany of injuries over the last year or so, particularly in the 6Ns this year.

You can't use injuries as an excuse.

As usual you ignored the rest of my post. I said despite the number of injuries, a tough group, interested opponents and kicking off before others competing for the runner up spot Leinster were still only a whisker away from making the knock outs while also still playing decent rugby for the most part.

In contrast Ireland played horrible rugby, lost to teams who on paper they should have beaten and in general played at a lower level than the sum of their parts. If Ireland had performed well and lost narrowly against sides that are better than them there wouldn’t have been so much pressure on Kidney.

Bogota

BBDBB wrote: »

You seem to be hung up on peoples location in relation to their opinions, Siwi, that seems a bit of a red herring at best.

The thread is about the new Ireland coach. I genuinely don't care where he plied his trade before so long as he has a good pedigree of coaching quality, winning rugby. It was the same criteria I applied to Kidney on his arrival in the job. I was very happy with his appointment at the time, as I felt EOS had taken us as far as he could. Kidney took us further and then reached a point where he couldn't take us any further. As such I welcome Joes appointment and based on what I saw him do with Leinster in his tenure I am looking forward to him improving (dramatically) our side over a realistic and fair time.

You want there to be "interesting" comments to the media, fair enough, I hope you get your wish BUT I sincerely hope he is wise enough to realise the value of saying bland banalities to the media at times. Not everything Kidney did should be casually discarded and rejected, that would be foolish.

I think hes pointing out that there is a section of posters on this forum from the south who will try to shut out any kind of criticism of any of their players/former players/coaches/former coaches etc.

It was a fair comment, Kidney was an awful manager and there is literally no reason to defend him. He had the best players Ireland has ever had at his disposal and won 1 GS playing muck rugby. How many GS did Wales win in that period?

The only reason winning the GS bought him so much time was because fans of Ireland remembered the times when Ireland would have had a good 6N finishing 4th, however with the team Kidney had it was quite frankly a disgrace. He had a Leinster team that had won the HC 3 out of the 4 years during his tenure and completely squandered the talent choosing lesser players and being stubborn.

Ah no more Kidney, thank god!!!


I expect from Joe 2/3 wins but wont begrude him a defeat against Australia if its a good performance. Most importantly Joe will change the playing philosophy of the team and start picking players on merit rather than whether he was familar with them.

awec

This has the potential to be a good thread about what the expectations will be going forward - let's not ruin it by turning it into yet another Kidney thread or an argument about how fans of certain provinces viewed him please.

Foxtrol

What I expect from Joe is to do similar to Kidney did initially and bring Ireland a step forward from where the last coach left off. The difference is where EOS left Ireland as ‘nearly men’ Kidney has left them as wooden spoon contenders so it shouldn’t be too hard to improve. I don’t expect miracles but I think with the number of Leinster and Ulster players involved and with Munster seemingly getting to grips with their new style of play I think there’s a much better chance of a smoother transition to a Schmidt style of play than we would have seen if it was attempted when Kidney took over.

Podge_irl

If things are falling apart I'd quite like the coach to at least give the impression that he's noticed there is a problem.

Anyway, with Joe I'd expect to see a more ambitious gameplan, less defending leads and more constant pressure, some more rotation to suit the opposition and importantly a plan B to fall back on. His whole approach is predicated on his players doing the basics very well though so whatever goes on in the provinces will have a huge impact on how successful he is.

danthefan

My thoughts, in handy bullet point form.

- Don't expect 3 wins from the AIs, but I would like to think we could beat Samoa and Aus at home, tough as it'll be
- Continuing the great job of developing players he did at Leinster
- Main thing is he has to stop the horrible stagnation that occurred under Kidney. It started immediately after the Slam basically, if it happens under Joe then he's not doing a good job
- Improved style of play, stemming from Sexton finally being backed to play his natural game for Ireland
- Consistency. I can't remember two good performances in a row under Kidney post-2009
- If the latter three things happen, results will follow imo


Just on Kidney and his press utterances, they were a disgrace at times imo. We pay for the professional game in Ireland, and when results got bad I think we deserved more than the nonsense he'd serve up in post match interviews and the likes.

Foxtrol

danthefan wrote: »

My thoughts, in handy bullet point form.

- Don't expect 3 wins from the AIs, but I would like to think we could beat Samoa and Aus at home, tough as it'll be
- Continuing the great job of developing players he did at Leinster
- Main thing is he has to stop the horrible stagnation that occurred under Kidney. It started immediately after the Slam basically, if it happens under Joe then he's not doing a good job
- Improved style of play, stemming from Sexton finally being backed to play his natural game for Ireland
- Consistency. I can't remember two good performances in a row under Kidney post-2009
- If the latter three things happen, results will follow imo


Just on Kidney and his press utterances, they were a disgrace at times imo. We pay for the professional game in Ireland, and when results got bad I think we deserved more than the nonsense he'd serve up in post match interviews and the likes.

'If it ain't broke, you're not looking hard enough' - Joe Schmidt

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

As usual you ignored the rest of my post. I said despite the number of injuries, a tough group, interested opponents and kicking off before others competing for the runner up spot Leinster were still only a whisker away from making the knock outs while also still playing decent rugby for the most part.

In contrast Ireland played horrible rugby, lost to teams who on paper they should have beaten and in general played at a lower level than the sum of their parts. If Ireland had performed well and lost narrowly against sides that are better than them there wouldn’t have been so much pressure on Kidney.

Its a bit easier to deal with injuries at club level than at international level - ie, if you have serious injuries you can bring in a player the calibre of Brad Thorn for injury cover. If POC isn't fit for Ireland, there is a fair step down to McCarthy/Tuohy/Toner from him.

I made the point that Leinster were only a whisker away from qualifying and the reason why they didn't qualify was because they didn't score enough tries against Scarlets & Exeter - nothing to do with the kick-off times because I'd be amazed if the Leinster players decided that they had scored enough tries to qualify so didn't bother any more.

If you won't accept the horrendous injuries that Ireland were dealing with, the relatively minor injuries that Leinster were carried should not be used as an excuse either.

LuckyLloyd

Not a whole lot of difference in results over the long haul. Will be interesting how long it takes this forum to understand playing pool limitations.

corny

I expect quite a dramatic improvement tbh.

Firstly, Schmidt will organise the team infinitely better than his predecessor. The players will finally know what they're supposed to doing when they have the ball.

Secondly, i believe morale was at an all time low under Kidney. The players saw right through him by the end and it affected performance.

A win against Samoa and Australia, run the Nzer's very close and carry that into the six nations by winning the GS!

jamiedav2011

-Vastly improved backplay
-Using the bench in an intelligent, not pre-determined way.
-2/3 in the AIs at least, and giving the ABs a good rattle.
-Using the carrying power we have in the forwards in a smarter way, and bringing the likes of Healy & SOB on deeper angled runs.

Bogota

jm08 wrote: »

Its a bit easier to deal with injuries at club level than at international level - ie, if you have serious injuries you can bring in a player the calibre of Brad Thorn for injury cover. If POC isn't fit for Ireland, there is a fair step down to McCarthy/Tuohy/Toner from him.

Good thing Schmidt managed to win the HC with 12 Irish players in 2011 and 13 Irish players in 2012 then :eek:

jamiedav2011

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Not a whole lot of difference in results over the long haul. Will be interesting how long it takes this forum to understand playing pool limitations.

You expect us not win 4 games and lose to Italy in the 6N next year eh?

Will be interesting to se how long it takes Schmidt to utilise the huge amount playing talent available to him.

danthefan

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

-Vastly improved backplay
-Using the bench in an intelligent, not pre-determined way.
-2/3 in the AIs at least, and giving the ABs a good rattle.
-Using the carrying power we have in the forwards in a smarter way, and bringing the likes of Healy & SOB on deeper angled runs.

This will happen. I can remember back in 2011 or so him talking about SOB, and it was a stated tactic to not just get him on the ball but to get him on the ball in the right manner, which mean him taking an offload or taking quick ball or taking it in a slightly wider channel where he could do damage. Stark contrast with giving him static ball one out from a ruck.

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

You expect us not win 4 games and lose to Italy in the 6N next year eh?

Will be interesting to se how long it takes Schmidt to utilise the huge amount playing talent available to him.

Lloyd obviously doesn't understand that was our worst 6N result ever. I don't expect a championship every season, but we're a lot better than that.

Bogota

jm08 wrote: »

If you won't accept the horrendous injuries that Ireland were dealing with, the relatively minor injuries that Leinster were carried should not be used as an excuse either.

I'd argue that injuries to Irish players is far less damaging than injuries to club players considering the respective playing pools to pick replacements from.

Also I wouldn't say Leinster had minimal injuries during those group stages at all! Kearney, Fitzgerald, O'Driscoll 3 of the 5 starting outside backs were injured and Nacewa was carrying an injury! Essentially the only outside back fit for Leinster was D'arcy!

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Its a bit easier to deal with injuries at club level than at international level - ie, if you have serious injuries you can bring in a player the calibre of Brad Thorn for injury cover. If POC isn't fit for Ireland, there is a fair step down to McCarthy/Tuohy/Toner from him.

How many Brad Thorns did Leinster sign last season? They came close to beating Clermont in the SMM against a team who were on paper much better than them, while Ireland lost to Scotland and Italy who even giving the injuries Ireland on paper should have beaten.

I made the point that Leinster were only a whisker away from qualifying and the reason why they didn't qualify was because they didn't score enough tries against Scarlets & Exeter - nothing to do with the kick-off times because I'd be amazed if the Leinster players decided that they had scored enough tries to qualify so didn't bother any more.

So you think knowing how many tries you need isn’t a help? If Leinster played last they would have been in the position to play much more riskily in their last game to get to x + 1 tries as knowing not getting that number of tries would mean they were out as much as it would have been if they straight out lost.

If you won't accept the horrendous injuries that Ireland were dealing with, the relatively minor injuries that Leinster were carried should not be used as an excuse either.

Of course I accept Ireland had horrendous injuries last season but the issue is that for the last few years, barring the odd exception, Ireland had been playing poorly no matter whether they were working from a full panel of players or not, in all cases they were playing at below the sum of their parts while Leinster consistently played at or above theirs. I’m sure if Ireland had won the 6 nations the previous two years and a not quite so successful season last year no one would complain too much.

Bogota

The funny thing is that even in the season under Schmidt that jm08 is deriding Leinster for, they still won the Rabo, the Amlin and thr B and I cup. More than any other Irish province that season.

.ak

Couldn't really care less about how Schmidt holds himself in an interview, although we all know he's probably the best, most open coach in terms of putting forth his analysis and thoughts of a game in a post match interview - he's been extremely self critical of Leinster in post match games, and whilst yes he hasn't had much to be critical about he's actually more openly scalding about performances when Leinster actually win their games - and the buck doesn't stop there, anyone who saw his Late Late Show interview is well aware of exactly the type of character he is and what you can expect from him when you ask him a question.

But really, is that what we're discussing here? My expectations reach further than the mic, the dressing room, or the limelight. It's on the field where I my expectations lie. I think he'll be acutely aware of the state of Irish rugby and won't flatter the fact our international team is fairly rubbish at the moment. If anyone can take a team's exploit a team's strengths however it's Joe. I fully expect to see a more positive brand of rugby played. Expect conditioning to be a key for his training camps - he won't be with them long enough to drill them on handling like he did with Leinster, but rather he'll drill them on sustained speed and I'll wager Ireland will play a fast, but tight game under Schmidt. Attacking the fringes and repositioning the ball as much as possible. Ireland won't walk over most of the 6N teams physically, but they'll pick holes if they play the right game.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Not a whole lot of difference in results over the long haul. Will be interesting how long it takes this forum to understand playing pool limitations.

Sure don't give us your own opinion anyway....

Teferi

We know exactly what Joe can do at the highest club level so it's an exciting time to be an Ireland supporter.

Looking back at the start of Joe's tenure we may easily see something similar in green as he has less time with the International players and they're playing 4 different styles although at least he isn't starting completely cold as the Leinster lads will know his style. I wouldn't be surprised to see us go 0 - 3 in the Autumn Internationals and have a shaky 6 Nations although I would like to start seeing results come next summer.

Of course if we do lose the next few matches then then the nature of the losses will count - if we must lose I would like to see us lose playing some good flowing rugby with decent ideas on show.

Joe seems to be the doing the right thing so far visiting the various provinces and having that much extended squad day. I wouldn't mind if he was dictating certain skill plays down to the provinces in order to help the transition.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Bogota wrote: »

The funny thing is that even in the season under Schmidt that jm08 is deriding Leinster for, they still won the Rabo, the Amlin and thr B and I cup. More than any other Irish province that season.

worth noting that Leinster were ravaged by injury during the most crucial period of last season. They still looked the best side in Europe come the end of the season

.ak

Teferi wrote: »

We know exactly what Joe can do at the highest club level so it's an exciting time to be an Ireland supporter.

Looking back at the start of Joe's tenure we may easily see something similar in green as he has less time with the International players and they're playing 4 different styles although at least he isn't starting completely cold as the Leinster lads will know his style. I wouldn't be surprised to see us go 0 - 3 in the Autumn Internationals and have a shaky 6 Nations although I would like to start seeing results come next summer.

Of course if we do lose the next few matches then then the nature of the losses will count - if we must lose I would like to see us lose playing some good flowing rugby with decent ideas on show.

Joe seems to be the doing the right thing so far visiting the various provinces and having that much extended squad day. I wouldn't mind if he was dictating certain skill plays down to the provinces in order to help the transition.

Swiwi might confirm, but this is as far as I know the done thing in NZ so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case at all, and truthfully I hope it is. The tribalism and individual styles of the provinces is fascinating from a spectator perspective, but if the provinces are to do their job - which is to strengthen the national side - then they need to be singing off the same hymn sheet... somewhat.

Teferi

.ak wrote: »

Swiwi might confirm, but this is as far as I know the done thing in NZ so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case at all, and truthfully I hope it is. The tribalism and individual styles of the provinces is fascinating from a spectator perspective, but if the provinces are to do their job - which is to strengthen the national side - then they need to be singing off the same hymn sheet... somewhat.

Yeah there was a good bit of noise around the time of Joe's appointment that NZ have something of a top-down development plan so I'd hope it's something we could look at doing.

Podge_irl

The media stuff has to do with an element of trust, or at least faith in the coach. Kidney's act worked fine when we were winning, but he frankly sounded like an idiot when we were doing consistently poorly. As if he didn't notice a problem and didn't think and corrections were necessary. Maybe he was different behind close doors, but I would have been a lot quicker to give him more benefit of the doubt if he were more open in interviews. He treated the interviewer, and by proxy us, with disdain. I'm more likely to go to a game, even one I expect us to lose, if I think the coach is on the ball and working towards the right goal.

BBDBB

Expectations of Joe should be
1) a Grand Slam on his first attempt
2) a Churchill Cup for the wolfhounds
3) take the Irish team to be ranked 4th in the IRB tables
4) a World Cup Quarter finals place.
5) Named IRB coach of the year

Fair enough? should be a doddle, after all its what that last awful manager we had scraped by with, playing muck rugby:rolleyes:


I think it actually shows something about how much we have to thank both EOS and Kidney for when our expectations are that high that we can casually cast aside achievements like those and demand more.


A little context

I remember harum scarum rugby, using the conditions to our advantage (wind and rain) to play fast and furious, hard fought games, usually to defeat and occasionally to a momentus win. Eddie brought us Triple Crowns, jeez we haven't seen the like since Olly Campbell but sadly after a few of those we got blasé and wondered why he couldn't take us to the Grand Slam, so he got the bullet on the back of his hex over England and that wonderful day at Croker. Thanks Eddie, but hub caps aren't good enough any more.

So we got genial Deccie, double HC winner, who banged heads behind the scenes and earned the respect of the golden generation,spoke quietly and said what he needed to behind closed doors and feck all to the press and managed to get that little bit of luck that Eddie hadn't got and we got a Slam, at last, thank feck for that, halleigh-feckin-lulia!:D

Anyone up for another 50 year wait? No? So we have exactly the same number of 6Nation Slams as England and nope, sorry, forget bad luck, injuries and a few iffy decisions from the ref at crucial times, we want more and you haven't achieved a second Slam so thnx bye

So we move on to our latest saviour Joe, double HC winner, same as his predecessor, exciting times, his sides play a cracking brand of rugby, of course at club level its easier to buy in talent for those pivotal positions that your own home growns don't quite match, but even so, he plays winning rugby and that is bound to transfer to the international side, isn't it? Don't forget we have our talisman, Brain, what is he 78 now? and still a British Lion, he has the physique of a man half his age you know. So its bound to all come together and World Cup finals are being mentioned




What Im saying is, Im glad we had Eddie he raised us from the muck and bullets. Christ knows we needed it. I was glad and sad when he went. It was time, he had led us as far as he could and nothing more to offer.

Im glad we had Deccie, he helped us aspire to another level again and we showed that we could do it, it was possible. We finally won a Slam and I for one will always remember that day and how it felt and be humbly grateful. But time moves on and we never quite got it together again, so yes, sadly it was time to go and a decent man had to walk.

But in both cases it shows our progress and it raises our expectations. We want more, forget that, we demand more!

Build on our success Joe you have to be good and you have to be lucky. A bounce of a ball, the dip beneath a crossbar, an unsighted ref and
it can all be undone in a moment. The injustice of it is irrelevant, that's sport, that's rugby.

Good luck Joe, you are gonna need it. Eddie and Deccie have raised the bar on you

For Paws

Am optimistic about this season (but then again, I'm usually optimistic before every season). Being positive & optimistic is a necessity - if you don't believe you're going to win you probably won't win. For me Uncle Deccie's pronouncements exuded negativity, like he was so afraid of being mis-quoted or becoming a 'hostage to fortune' by saying something which wouldn't turn out to be true. In turn, the Press were only too ready for Deccie to fail. Don't know whether he was much more forthcoming to the players - it certainly didn't look like it at times.

Fans need to believe. No secret about that.
But players need to believe too, and being realistic and positive (which Schmidt has in spades) augurs well.

19543261

http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/734/471714/

20 minute interview with Schmidt. Really deserves a listen.

danthefan

Podge_irl wrote: »

The media stuff has to do with an element of trust, or at least faith in the coach. Kidney's act worked fine when we were winning, but he frankly sounded like an idiot when we were doing consistently poorly. As if he didn't notice a problem and didn't think and corrections were necessary. Maybe he was different behind close doors, but I would have been a lot quicker to give him more benefit of the doubt if he were more open in interviews. He treated the interviewer, and by proxy us, with disdain. I'm more likely to go to a game, even one I expect us to lose, if I think the coach is on the ball and working towards the right goal.

His reasons for picking the same team over and over were a particular highlight.

If we won: "We watched the game last week and decided they deserved another go"

If we lost: "We watched the game last week and decided they needed another go"

Foxtrol

BBDBB wrote: »

Good luck Joe, you are gonna need it. Eddie and Deccie have raised the bar on you

Did you go to bed in 2009 and just wake up?

petebricquette

19543261 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/734/471714/

20 minute interview with Schmidt. Really deserves a listen.

How recent is that interview?

BBDBB

Foxtrol wrote: »

Did you go to bed in 2009 and just wake up?

nope, did you start watching rugby in 2008?

Foxtrol

BBDBB wrote: »

nope, did you start watching rugby in 2008?

Can you explain how Kidney has raised the bar since 2009, especially given that he was blessed with probably the best playing pool in the history of Irish Rugby?

EDIT: Actually no don't, you clearly have a romantic view of the Kidney era which hasn't changed despite the appalling state he left the Irish side in so it's pointless.

BBDBB

Foxtrol wrote: »

Can you explain how Kidney has raised the bar since 2009, especially given that he was blessed with probably the best playing pool in the history of Irish Rugby?

EDIT: Actually no don't, you clearly have a romantic view of the Kidney era so this will just go round in circles.

Can you explain how winning a first Grand Slam in over 50 years isn't a step up from his predecessors?

EDIT: Actually no don't, you clearly have a view of Irish rugby tarnished by the last years of Kidneys tenure rather than its entirety and its context so this will just go round in circles

Swiwi.

.ak wrote: »

Swiwi might confirm, but this is as far as I know the done thing in NZ so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case at all, and truthfully I hope it is. The tribalism and individual styles of the provinces is fascinating from a spectator perspective, but if the provinces are to do their job - which is to strengthen the national side - then they need to be singing off the same hymn sheet... somewhat.

Well, the ABs are considered the be-all and end-all in NZ, so generally what the AB coaches want from the SXV & ITM sides they get. However, the 2007 debacle went too far (resting most of the ABs from the SXV) and was widely panned, especially following the ignominious exit at Cardiff - it was also a tactical disaster, in that allowed the Bulls to win the SXV and the Boks the 3N, and give them a good dollop of confidence. The closest to a Munster/Leinster rivalry in NZ would be Canterbury/Auckland, but differences are generally put aside in the interests of the national team, and in recent times where there has been a fair representation from both provinces, I've heard no gripes.

This year the AB coaches negotiated with the SXV coaches 2 or 3 short camps with AB hopefuls, and it seemed to work well.

I do think Schmidt would be very shrewd to appoint a Munster captain, realistically that means POC I guess, but I'll be interested in other people's views on this (but not rabid rants please).

Podge_irl

BBDBB wrote: »

Can you explain how winning a first Grand Slam in over 50 years isn't a step up from his predecessors?

EDIT: Actually no don't, you clearly have a view of Irish rugby tarnished by the last years of Kidneys tenure rather than its entirety and its context so this will just go round in circles

I'd consider it the other way round considering there was one stellar year and largely dross after that.

But yes, a GS is a high bar to set.

Swiwi.

BBDBB wrote: »

Expectations of Joe should be
1) a Grand Slam on his first attempt
2) a Churchill Cup for the wolfhounds
3) take the Irish team to be ranked 4th in the IRB tables
4) a World Cup Quarter finals place.
5) Named IRB coach of the year

Fair enough? should be a doddle, after all its what that last awful manager we had scraped by with, playing muck rugby:rolleyes:


I think it actually shows something about how much we have to thank both EOS and Kidney for when our expectations are that high that we can casually cast aside achievements like those and demand more.


A little context

I remember harum scarum rugby, using the conditions to our advantage (wind and rain) to play fast and furious, hard fought games, usually to defeat and occasionally to a momentus win. Eddie brought us Triple Crowns, jeez we haven't seen the like since Olly Campbell but sadly after a few of those we got blasé and wondered why he couldn't take us to the Grand Slam, so he got the bullet on the back of his hex over England and that wonderful day at Croker. Thanks Eddie, but hub caps aren't good enough any more.

So we got genial Deccie, double HC winner, who banged heads behind the scenes and earned the respect of the golden generation,spoke quietly and said what he needed to behind closed doors and feck all to the press and managed to get that little bit of luck that Eddie hadn't got and we got a Slam, at last, thank feck for that, halleigh-feckin-lulia!:D

Anyone up for another 50 year wait? No? So we have exactly the same number of 6Nation Slams as England and nope, sorry, forget bad luck, injuries and a few iffy decisions from the ref at crucial times, we want more and you haven't achieved a second Slam so thnx bye

So we move on to our latest saviour Joe, double HC winner, same as his predecessor, exciting times, his sides play a cracking brand of rugby, of course at club level its easier to buy in talent for those pivotal positions that your own home growns don't quite match, but even so, he plays winning rugby and that is bound to transfer to the international side, isn't it? Don't forget we have our talisman, Brain, what is he 78 now? and still a British Lion, he has the physique of a man half his age you know. So its bound to all come together and World Cup finals are being mentioned




What Im saying is, Im glad we had Eddie he raised us from the muck and bullets. Christ knows we needed it. I was glad and sad when he went. It was time, he had led us as far as he could and nothing more to offer.

Im glad we had Deccie, he helped us aspire to another level again and we showed that we could do it, it was possible. We finally won a Slam and I for one will always remember that day and how it felt and be humbly grateful. But time moves on and we never quite got it together again, so yes, sadly it was time to go and a decent man had to walk.

But in both cases it shows our progress and it raises our expectations. We want more, forget that, we demand more!

Build on our success Joe you have to be good and you have to be lucky. A bounce of a ball, the dip beneath a crossbar, an unsighted ref and
it can all be undone in a moment. The injustice of it is irrelevant, that's sport, that's rugby.

Good luck Joe, you are gonna need it. Eddie and Deccie have raised the bar on you

I think you're accepting mediocrity there, and Schmidt needs to get the Irish players believing in themselves to be up with the best. Yes the GS was a great result, even if the actual doing of it against Wales was akin to NZ's limp victory in 2011, but it pretty much went downhill from there. I think Kidney should have tendered after 2011, but the whole Kidney thing has been done to death.

It's hard to know what results exactly to expect from the AIs, both Australia & NZ will be fairly battle hardened after the 4N with a stable coaching staff, whereas this will of course effectively be JS first time in charge. I think post 6N is probably where any fruit should start to be seen.

Foxtrol

Swiwi. wrote: »

I do think Schmidt would be very shrewd to appoint a Munster captain, realistically that means POC I guess, but I'll be interested in other people's views on this (but not rabid rants please).

Shrewd yes but I'd really hope if he does pick POC it’s for the right reasons not to be political. From what I’ve seen he’s not a man for politics (see POC-gate in the midst of the Ireland appointment) so I don’t think he’ll be swayed by it.

BBDBB

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'd consider it the other way round considering there was one stellar year and largely dross after that.

But yes, a GS is a high bar to set.

I think that's a little harsh on the performances after that but I can see where you coming from, by comparison to his first year, anything else would seem a failure.

I hope Joe can take us there again

Foxtrol

BBDBB wrote: »

I think that's a little harsh on the performances after that but I can see where you coming from, by comparison to his first year, anything else would seem a failure.

Winning only one game in a 6N tournament is a failure in anyone’s book, no matter how low the bar that was set.

Swiwi.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Shrewd yes but I'd really hope if he does pick POC it’s for the right reasons not to be political. From what I’ve seen he’s not a man for politics (see POC-gate in the midst of the Ireland appointment) so I don’t think he’ll be swayed by it.

I'm trying to think of other non-Leinster choices for Schmidt - Best can't be guaranteed his place on the team, I'd hardly say POM would go down a treat for parts of the forum.

In terms of Leinster, I do have a preference for forwards as captain, so I'd be against BOD...which leaves Heaslip. See my POM comment.

He could go left field, and chose someone unexpected, but I struggle to think who.

POC would seem to be universally respected across Irish rugby. I dunno maybe POC as captain, BOD as vice-captain?

BBDBB

Swiwi. wrote: »

I think you're accepting mediocrity there, and Schmidt needs to get the Irish players believing in themselves to be up with the best. Yes the GS was a great result, even if the actual doing of it against Wales was akin to NZ's limp victory in 2011, but it pretty much went downhill from there. I think Kidney should have tendered after 2011, but the whole Kidney thing has been done to death.

It's hard to know what results exactly to expect from the AIs, both Australia & NZ will be fairly battle hardened after the 4N with a stable coaching staff, whereas this will of course effectively be JS first time in charge. I think post 6N is probably where any fruit should start to be seen.

Possibly, what I thought I was doing was highlighting the progress we have made as an International team and accepting the reality that when expectations get raised by success its difficult to stay at that level.
I thought he should have gone after 2012, but I accept that some were already calling for his head.

I think we are in for three tough matches, the results (other than NZ are difficult to predict, its a brand new manager, but he's familiar to some, its so difficult to predict how they will gel and what plans they'll be able to implement successfully. So far the signs are promising from the reports re him visiting the provinces, but how that good vibe translates, we will have to wait and see

I want to give the guy a lot of rope, so Im not expecting great things from the 6N either

Swiwi.

BBDBB wrote: »

Possibly, what I thought I was doing was highlighting the progress we have made as an International team and accepting the reality that when expectations get raised by success its difficult to stay at that level.
I thought he should have gone after 2012, but I accept that some were already calling for his head.

I think we are in for three tough matches, the results (other than NZ are difficult to predict, its a brand new manager, but he's familiar to some, its so difficult to predict how they will gel and what plans they'll be able to implement successfully. So far the signs are promising from the reports re him visiting the provinces, but how that good vibe translates, we will have to wait and see

I want to give the guy a lot of rope, so Im not expecting great things from the 6N either

For a start victory against Italy & Scotland should be expected. Italy it's just a matter of matching them in the forwards and shutting down Parisse, their backs have improved but are never great. Scotland has a few exciting backs, but a pedestrian forward pack. England, Wales & France away are never gimme matches these days, but Ireland should expect to win more often than not at home. What I would like to see most of all though is a discernible gameplan - Ire v Eng at the Aviva in the rain was an awful tactical display from Ireland IIRC, and even if you can't always win at Twickenham (hell, even the ABs lose not that infrequently at Twickenham) at least if you know what the team was trying to achieve you can be happy as a fan.

.ak

awec wrote: »

This has the potential to be a good thread about what the expectations will be going forward - let's not ruin it by turning it into yet another Kidney thread or an argument about how fans of certain provinces viewed him please.

*ahem*