Saorview Connect

Tigerandahalf

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

... and the way around that 'uncertainty' is to have someone make a plugin for the box which will do exactly that.
It's not as if it has not been done before for other commercial boxes.

Which commercial box?

Capt'n Midnight

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That would cause a big issue for virgin, sky and others who are paying the bbc and itv to carry their channels in Ireland. So there is no way freesat (bbc and itv) will allow the freesat system to be used for the satellite channels. Rte don't really care either as long as their channels are no.1 on the epg slots of sky, virgin, etc.

SaorSat carries a full EPG so RTE have no problems there.

Freesat and SKY boxes ignore other EPG's and only show now/next on "other channels". Some Freesat boxes allow manual timers on other channels.

Weren't there a few VCR's that could scrape times off Teletext ?


Since it's not a technical issue, it won't be fixed.

patsryan

thatwilldopig wrote: »

Can't the satellite epg be download via the web to give us a 7 day epg or is there some licensing issue to do that. Had a box running enigma 😉 that done some thing like that.

There would be legal implications if it was scraped from the net without some kind of license I believe

Johnboy1951

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Which commercial box?

First one that comes to mind is the Wetek.
I am sure you can do a search yourself for others if required.

Johnboy1951

patsryan wrote: »

There would be legal implications if it was scraped from the net without some kind of license I believe

Do you have some legal basis for this claim?

It is something I see posted quite often but have yet to find or be given a reference to anything relevant.

patsryan

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

First one that comes to mind is the Wetek.
I am sure you can do a search yourself for others if required.

There boxes that are targeted more towards IT people like us than your average consumer

Tigerandahalf

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

First one that comes to mind is the Wetek.
I am sure you can do a search yourself for others if required.

Did the box provide 7 day epg specifically aimed at the Irish market?

patsryan

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Do you have some legal basis for this claim?

It is something I see posted quite often but have yet to find or be given a reference to anything relevant.

It would depend on the source being scraped and their terms and conditions. It’s a very grey area that could get a commercial organisation into s**t

patsryan

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Did the box provide 7 day epg specifically aimed at the Irish market?

RTÉ One is mentioned on their website

Capt'n Midnight

patsryan wrote: »

RTÉ One is mentioned on their website

Soarview and Saorsat have clear EPGs so the only receivers that can't use it are SKY or Freesat boxes programmed to ignore it.

So any old generic box will have the Irish EPG.
It won't have series link , though most offer an option to repeat a recording every week.
It won't have catchup.

Johnboy1951

It needs to be borne in mind that the guide data itself, not the manner in which it is displayed (Sky EPG, Freesat EPG, etc etc visuals), is regarded as open to all, and there has not been, to my knowledge, any court proceedings anywhere in the EU that contradicts that.
Sure, there is always the possibility that such a case might arise in the future, but that applies to almost anything you might think of.

The visual presentation of that data is a different matter and is proprietary to each of those who create the display, such as SKY, Freesat etc etc.

Each individual channel produces its guide information.
To that end they are the originators and 'owners' of that data.
They each make it freely available in so far as I can determine.
At minimum I found none who objected to their guide data being used anywhere appropriate - such as in an EPG.
It would indeed be odd if a channel objected to free advertising of their channel by including it and the guide data in an EPG.

So all indications are that the guide data is openly available and can be used personally or commercially.
But I can well understand a commercial STB not making it available 'just in case', but the solution to that, as I mentioned previously, is to facilitate the end user to add the guide data, via a simple plugin/addon. (Yest some do)
That makes it the user's action and not the commercial entity's.

Johnboy1951

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Soarview and Saorsat have clear EPGs so the only receivers that can't use it are SKY or Freesat boxes programmed to ignore it.

So any old generic box will have the Irish EPG.
It won't have series link , though most offer an option to repeat a recording every week.
It won't have catchup.

IIRC, the Sky EPG data is also in the clear. So they too have no reason to 'protect' it.
Considering the actions they take to protect just about everything else and lock their STBs down to prevent any changes/hacks/interference, one can only conclude they have no commercial reason to prevent open access to the guide data.

lsjmhar

The data can be taken from github using the xmltv data. That is what is used in the Enigma2 boxes. It is available at

https://github.com/XMLTV/xmltv

There is a uk website that provides this information for extraction also.

http://www.xmltv.co.uk/

This is the information used in TV listing apps. I sent the info to Keri so he may be able to use it. However, it may be proprietary so we will have to wait and see. I also imagine they are well aware of this info and know why it can't be used.

Tigerandahalf

There is no way a plug in or add on like that would happen with this box. It has been clear from an early stage that the box would be a closed solution. Allowing an end user to add a plug in leaves the box producer open to possible issues with copyright etc.

It is interesting that Kerri Billen has mentioned a possible solution. This seems to be coming more from their end than a request from saorview.

I think this saorview connect product might work better integrated into smart tvs. If the tv came with netflix, now tv etc you could have the 1 remote controlling everything.

Add your satellite cable to the tv and it would be a decent solution. Only issue would be the switching between satellite and saorview.

Johnboy1951

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

There is no way a plug in or add on like that would happen with this box. It has been clear from an early stage that the box would be a closed solution. Allowing an end user to add a plug in leaves the box producer open to possible issues with copyright etc.

You base this statement on what exactly?

It is interesting that Kerri Billen has mentioned a possible solution. This seems to be coming more from their end than a request from saorview.

I think this saorview connect product might work better integrated into smart tvs. If the tv came with netflix, now tv etc you could have the 1 remote controlling everything.

Add your satellite cable to the tv and it would be a decent solution. Only issue would be the switching between satellite and saorview.

lsjmhar

They are the company producing the box. they can add it as a closed solution, pulling the data from the websites. End users would not add any plugin, it would be integrated as an addon to the current software.

Tigerandahalf

lsjmhar wrote: »

They are the company producing the box. they can add it as a closed solution, pulling the data from the websites. End users would not add any plugin, it would be integrated as an addon to the current software.

That may be possible but we don't know.
You have to remember that rte's priorties are to maximise ad revenue and having as many people watching their content as possible. Producing any box that would mean the user could be watching other channels other than their own is not desireable.

We also don't know what the reaction of virgin/eir/sky would be - do you think they would want to pay for carriage of the English channels when another commercial box was allowing them to be viewed free. Would the bbc/itv be sending a strongly worded letter to saorview to cease their product offering. Do saorview want to risk that for what gain to them - when their channels are already carried at the top of the epgs of sky, eir, virgin.

Let us say the box producer managed to get the full epg on satellite. It would still leave you having to switch between saorview and satellite, taking 20 - 30 seconds.

lsjmhar

I wouldn't worry about having to do a switch for 20 seconds. If i could record on both sides with 7 day epg, I'd be happy.

galtee boy

JDxtra wrote: »

Saorview Connect recording to be made available by November 5th or earlier.

Yippety do dah, recording to a USB stick, welcome to the 1990's Saorview !

patsryan

lsjmhar wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about having to do a switch for 20 seconds. If i could record on both sides with 7 day epg, I'd be happy.

I think a 7 day EPG and PVR functionally is a big part of what most people who buy this box are looking for. A 7 day roll back guide and access to the players are just nice to have IMO

corm500

Finally bit the bullet and got a Saorview connect. I have set it up and had two questions. Is the epg in 720 only? And how do I stop the Saorview remote controlling the Humax box and vice versa?

The high horse brigade

corm500 wrote: »

Finally bit the bullet and got a Saorview connect. I have set it up and had two questions. Is the epg in 720 only? And how do I stop the Saorview remote controlling the Humax box and vice versa?

If the remote is controlling another box there isn't much you can do other than try to keep it out of range of the IR signal.

patsryan

corm500 wrote: »

Finally bit the bullet and got a Saorview connect. I have set it up and had two questions. Is the epg in 720 only? And how do I stop the Saorview remote controlling the Humax box and vice versa?

They use the same commands so there isn’t much that can be done.

Maybe have one box on and one off with a hdmi splitter that auto switches between inputs, that or a piece of tape 😂

lukeeman

i used these instructions and it seperate the Humax box and Saorview box controls.
https://support.icetv.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/227081347-How-do-I-set-the-Humax-and-remote-to-a-different-code-or-2-Humax-PVRs-in-1-room

corm500

Ok, first night using it and have to say, if they sort out the record function I’m happy. Love the interface familiar to me as a Freesat user. Would I like combined epg? Of course. But I have Freesat so it’s not a deal breaker for me. I found the rte player easy to use. I wish there was more channels n demand but I realise that would be a commercial decision for virgin. I think it will be a great addition with recording. At the moment it is ok.

Tigerandahalf

corm500 wrote: »

Ok, first night using it and have to say, if they sort out the record function I’m happy. Love the interface familiar to me as a Freesat user. Would I like combined epg? Of course. But I have Freesat so it’s not a deal breaker for me. I found the rte player easy to use. I wish there was more channels n demand but I realise that would be a commercial decision for virgin. I think it will be a great addition with recording. At the moment it is ok.

As I have said here before I use the saorview remote (which is much nicer than the humax one) to control both boxes. I turn both boxes on at the same time and off again with just 1 click of the saorview remote.

Using the 1 remote doesn't muck the other box up for me, so far. When recording is added I might have to change, as pressing the recordings button on the saorview remote brings up recordings on the freesat box, whereas pressing the On Demand button on the saorview remote doesn't bring up that content on freesat. Thus I am not playing on demand content on both boxes, by mistake.

The advantage of this is you can quickly switch to the saorview epg and vice versa if matches etc are on. Otherwise you would have to wait for the other box to load.

Saying that I am using the freesat box 90% of the time and it may be an option to do what lukeee has done above. That would be very handy and I think the family would prefer it.
I think I could live with 2 remotes for the odd occasion I switch to saorview.

I will try lukeee's link and let ye know.

P.S. one thing to let you know is that I have found my saorview box occassionally reboots itself, like maybe every 2 or 3 weeks while scrolling through content.

Tigerandahalf

Ok I tried to do that but the saorview remote won't now control the Connect box.

I pulled the plug out of the back of the Connect box. I then got the humax remote and pressed 0 and OK for 5 seconds at the humax box. I then changed the remote setting from 1 to 2. I plugged in the Connect box again.

The Connect box must have changed setting to 2.

lukeeman

Try to do the Humax boxs again and have saorview boxs plugged out at same time so t wont pick up the change, it should work.

Tigerandahalf

lukeeman wrote: »

Try to do the Humax boxs again and have saorview boxs plugged out at same time so t wont pick up the change, it should work.

I wonder does the box maintain some power after plugging it out? Sometimes you hear people saying to plug a box out for a full minute before it resets.

How do you find the box? Have you had it for long?

lukeeman

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I wonder does the box maintain some power after plugging it out? Sometimes you hear people saying to plug a box out for a full minute before it resets.

How do you find the box? Have you had it for long?

Have saorview box around 3 months, no problem with it does what i need it for bar the recording, find RTE player good for catch up as i work nights. Humax box a few years and no problems, but must get around to setting up a VPN so i can use BBC player. Hopefully remote control fix will work for you.

Tigerandahalf

I got the remotes working. You have to have the Connect box plugged out for a full minute.

I have to say the humax remote is inferior to the Connect one.

The Connect remote (once paired to the tv) allows you to control tv volume, power on/off of tv and select the input source with one button press.

However on the Humax remote you have to toggle between the tv and stb buttons to access the tv or set top box functions. Plus there is no way to select input source. It is a pain.

Edit: just to add, I changed the remote code to 3 for the humax box.

BowWow

corm500 wrote: »

Finally bit the bullet and got a Saorview connect. I have set it up and had two questions. Is the epg in 720 only? And how do I stop the Saorview remote controlling the Humax box and vice versa?

I have a Humax Foxsat HDR and the Humax Fox T2 HDR. Both remotes shared the same code/conflict.
This thread was a great help to me in reprogramming one of the remotes -

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056119109

Tigerandahalf

I have gone back to the old system I had with the Connect remote controlling both boxes.
Even when recording is added, I will still be able to use the same system as the Connect box needs a hard drive to be added.

Just to add pressing 0 and the OK button on the Connect remote doesn't allow you to change the remote code.

decor58

Tigerandahalf wrote:

However on the Humax remote you have to toggle between the tv and stb buttons to access the tv or set top box functions. Plus there is no way to select input source. It is a pain.

In the TV mode, pause button is source on my humax remote, (Sony TV, humax 1100).

Tigerandahalf

decor58 wrote: »

In the TV mode, pause button is source on my humax remote, (Sony TV, humax 1100).

Doesn't work on my humax 1100s with LG tv.

I guess a harmony remote could be a possibility but you would still need the tv remote for the smart apps like netflix, etc.

maximus02

The Saorview website has given some news on the software upgrade on the Connect box.

The stated release date is November 5th although as they also state it could be earlier or 'LATER'.

We'll see.

https://www.saorview.ie/en/news

STB.

keribillen wrote: »

This is a forum of people with strong ideas for how the box 'should' be, and many were disgruntled about the Saorview Connect platform before the current project between EKT, Shomar, Freesat and RTE even started. Explaining how the various partners work (very friendly and co-operatively, by the way), and what has happened since the project started will be no consolation to those who are disgruntled about anything. I'm very happy to have a constructive discussion with anyone via email (see my earlier post with my email address) and have already started doing so. About the 7-day EPG over DVB-S I realise many are unhappy about its absence but again this is fundamentally a commercial matter. The satellite transmissions support Now/Next only as I am sure you all know (happy to be corrected on this or any point). I'm looking into ways to get such a guide on the box but no promises.

I do not know where you got the impression that people where disgruntled with "Saorview Connect" as it did not exist until an unfinished box was released on the market. Do not believe all that you are told.

First and foremost this forum is full of Irish TV licence payers so its no wonder they would like something that covers the basic requirements of FTA viewing and or recording. We have had years of the same old rebadged boxes solely coming out of Vestel and many have resorted to using non approved hardware to get around the basics such as 7 day epg for all dvb sources in one clear concise menu.

Secondly, as well as box enthusiasts, there are also retailers on the forum who have sold these Saorview Connect boxes in good faith and are now dealing with disgruntled end users. The disgruntled end users certainly don't care about EKT or Freesat or Metaphor. They just want a fully functioning box for which they have paid not an insignificant amount of money.

Unlike the UK we do not have everything on the one DVB platform for FTA viewing, largely down to many years of government inaction and dragging of heels. For this reason, combo boxes mixing dvb source have been popular for the last 10 years.

Regarding your question about EPG grabbers and scrapers, there is plenty of opensource python scripts and packages on github that already do this.

The one used on linux boxes is actually called "crossepg" and its source is free to view etc on https://github.com/E2OpenPlugins/e2openplugin-CrossEPG

You do not need to use an online dedicated XML source as the IEPG data is already centrally broadcast unencrypted on a DVB-S transponder on 28.2E (11788 V s/r 27500 ) and can be parsed etc to an epg.dat file on the boxes memory (if big enough) or a connected usb stick.

Johnboy1951

All well and good, but are the developers of the Saorview Connect box prepared to use something that is released under the GPL/LGPL?

If they were they could have produced the box from scratch using such software ... and released it, fully functional, quite some time ago!

STB. wrote:

Regarding your question about EPG grabbers and scrapers, there is plenty of opensource python scripts and packages on github that already do this.

The one used on linux boxes is actually called "crossepg" and its source is free to view etc on https://github.com/E2OpenPlugins/e2openplugin-CrossEPG

You do not need to use an online dedicated XML source as the IEPG data is already centrally broadcast unencrypted on a DVB-S transponder on 28.2E (11788 V s/r 27500 ) and can be parsed etc to an epg.dat file on the boxes memory (if big enough) or a connected usb stick.

corm500

Recieved an email from Saorview today which states the following



Next month we will be making available a software update for Saorview Connect which will enable you to record programmes. Following the software update, you can use your Saorview Connect box to record to an external hard drive, and to pause, fast forward and rewind live TV. It will be possible to record one programme while watching another. Recording will be possible on both Saorview channels and if you access them, the free to air satellite channels (if you have connected your box to a satellite dish).


Next month we will be making available a software update for Saorview Connect which will enable you to record programmes. Following the software update, you can use your Saorview Connect box to record to an external hard drive, and to pause, fast forward and rewind live TV. It will be possible to record one programme while watching another. Recording will be possible on both Saorview channels and if you access them, the free to air satellite channels (if you have connected your box to a satellite dish).




The software update for recordings (for the Powerpoint DXD7025 Saorview Connect box) was originally planned for mid-2018, but unfortunately this had to be postponed a few months for operational reasons. We apologise for this delay, but are pleased to announce that the planned release date is 5th November. The actual date could be a little earlier or later, depending on what issues are found in the public beta testing (see below), and we will update nearer the time. We appreciate that the delay has been frustrating for some customers, but we do not want to deliver a substandard experience by cutting corners at this stage.

Before this upgrade is published to all Saorview Connect boxes, we will undertake some final beta* testing with a small group of users. This is in order to identify any bugs remaining, and to evaluate customer feedback for future upgrades.

If you wish to participate in this public test, please email beta@saorview.ie in the first instance with your contact details. We will select a number of respondents to participate in the beta test group and follow up with details of how to participate if you are selected.


It also includes a screen grab of the recordings interface which shows Saorview and Satellite recordings appearing together on the same page. Which is a plus

STB.

Go for it Corm. Be that beta tester.

Then you can tell us what it can and cannot do and we can finally get an end to the tuners debate. Dont read too much into the recordings being all in the one place.

thatwilldopig

I applied to be a beta tester but heard nothing back....

Tigerandahalf

Recording will be possible on both Saorview channels

The above would seem to indicate that the 2 tuners are satellite or terrestrial capable.

thatwilldopig

Can you record Satellite and watch Saorview and vice versa.

With the current version when you set a reminder on a Saorview channel it doesn't alert you if you are watching a satellite channel. No option to set a reminder on a satellite channel. Not much point with only now/next but still...

corm500

STB. wrote: »

Go for it Corm. Be that beta tester.

Then you can tell us what it can and cannot do and we can finally get an end to the tuners debate. Dont read too much into the recordings being all in the one place.

Haha yes I have applied. Heard nothing so far.

Tigerandahalf

The recordings on satellite will have the problem of not having the 7 day epg guide. So if you go into your planned recordings, you won't see

Springwatch BBC One 7 - 8pm

You will simply see
Tuesday BBC One 7 - 8pm

So unless you have a super memory you won't know what the recording is unless you go away and check a tv guide.

That is a major problem for family use.

The recorded programme does show the programme name so at least that is clear.

maximus02

Is it safe to assume that these boxes will include Series Link in the new upgrade?

Thanks in advance.

Tigerandahalf

maximus02 wrote: »

Is it safe to assume that these boxes will include Series Link in the new upgrade?

Thanks in advance.

On the saorview side it will, plus you will be able to remote record via the app on your phone.

On the satellite side the series link will have to be done through timer record.

There has been talk of a further update down the line to include a full 7 day epg with series link on satellite but it is not part of the tender so I wouldn't hold out much hope for it for now.

BowWow

Do you have to already have a Saorview Connect Box, or would one be supplied to a selected Beta tester?

Ten Pin

...and to pause, fast forward and rewind live TV

RTE have invented a time travel machine

mackersdublin

Also you can't rewind live TV, unless the hard drive is built into the box