Jurisdiction of Courts in Legal Nullity of Foreign Marriage...

TargetWidow

Can anyone tell me what the position regarding the jurisdiction of Irish courts to nullify an English marriage?

It seems unlikely that the English courts would recognise any Irish legal Nullity of one of their marriages, am I wrong?

Has anyone ever heard of a Decree of Nullity after more than 25 years of marriage and several kids?

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Nullity decrees after long unions are rare, but not unknown.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Usually, but their can be exceptions.

For instance, Irish marriage law specifies that the marriage of an Irish resident under age is invalid no matter where the marriage is celebrated. So it's conceivable that an Irish resident might go to another jurisdiction and celebrate a marriage which is lawful there, but back in Ireland the Irish courts could (and would, if asked) grant a decree of nullity. (Which of course would probably not be recognised in the jurisdiction where the marriage was celebrated.)

You can also have a situation in which the couple were married in (say) France (in an example of "wedding tourism") but they live and have always lived in Ireland, and all their property and affairs are here. If they think their marriage was invalid as a matter of French law they can take nullity proceedings in Ireland and introduce expert evidence as to the relevant French law and, again, if the Irish courts are satisfied that the marriage was indeed invalid according to the law of the place where it was celebrated, they will grant a nullity decree. As the couple have no connection with France they don't need a French decree to sort out their affairs.

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Correct. But this won't bother the couple concerned, if in fact they have no continuing connection with that state. If you were married, e.g., on a beach in Thailand, during a holiday which you took for the purpose, but your life and affairs and commitments and property and children are all in Ireland, and your intended second marriage is going to be celebrated there too, it probably doesn't bother you that you don't have a Thai decree.

In most cases, you could get a Thai decree if you wanted, because the reason the Irish courts treat the marriage as void is because they are satisfied that it is void under Thai law. And there's a fairly high standard of proof in nullity cases so, if they're satisfied that the marriage is void under Thai law, it probably is. But if you have no need of a Thai decree, why bother to get one?

Where you would need a Thai decree is if you wanted to celebrate a second marriage in a third state. The (say) French courts will be unimpressed with an Irish declaration of nullity in respect of a marriage celebrated in Thailand. In this scenario, if you wanted to celebrate your second marriage in France they you'd need a Thai decree of nullity or divorce (or, of course, a French decree).

Actual case: Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall were married in 1991 in a Hindu ceremony on a beach in Bali. The ceremony did not comply with the requirements of form of Indonesian law for a valid marriage. The English High Court granted a decree of nullity in respect of the marriage in 1999. The Indonesian courts were never involved, because why bother? If you google Jagger Hall nullity or some similar combination you can read all about it.

Neither Jagger nor Hall has married again but, should they wish to, they will either have to get married in England or get a nullity decree which will be recognised in the jurisdiction in which they wish to marry.

Carawaystick

Peregrinus wrote: »

Where you would need a Thai decree is if you wanted to celebrate a second marriage in a third state. The (say) French courts will be unimpressed with an Irish declaration of nullity in respect of a marriage celebrated in Thailand. In this scenario, if you wanted to celebrate your second marriage in France they you'd need a Thai decree of nullity or divorce (or, of course, a French decree).

...

Neither Jagger nor Hall has married again but, should they wish to, they will either have to get married in England or get a nullity decree which will be recognised in the jurisdiction in which they wish to marry.

How does the third state know about the marriage? apart from either spouse-to-be telling them?

Peregrinus

Carawaystick wrote: »

How does the third state know about the marriage? apart from either spouse-to-be telling them?

They'll ask. Most people are reluctant to lie in this situation, for three reasons.

First, they are decent people, generally reluctant to lie.

Secondly, they fear they will be punished if the lie is detected.

Thirdly, the whole point of getting married is to obtain a certain legal status, with consequences for tax, inheritance, medical care decisions, etc.. The security of that status is obviously imperilled if you obtain it by fraud, in circumstances which mean that your second marriage is in fact void, and liable to be set aside at any time if the true facts come to light. Lying in order to be allowed to celebrate a second marriage defeats the whole point of marrying in the the first place. Being in a void or voidable marriage creates much more uncertainty and confusion than not being married at all. Most people are intelligent enough to see this.