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Game journalism and criticism

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,707 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    Any Valve game too.

    Ah here!:pac::rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    C14N wrote: »
    Honestly, I haven't played them, not out of disinterest, just that a hefty backlog has kept me from buying new games. However, statistically, I'm still inclined to believe that a similar spectrum of games will exist from year to year generally. Perhaps 2013 was a bad example as The Last of Us and Bioshock Infinite were really two of my favourites from the whole generation. Looking back to 2012 though I'm seeing stuff like Mass Effect 3, The Walking Dead, Dishonored, Borderlands 2 and Far Cry 3. All of those seem like games that, while well-made and enjoyable, if released in 2014 would have failed to reach those scores.
    I'm actually in the same boat but even from what we've seen, I don't see how one could look at them and go "yea, they're on the same quality level". On the subject of generation, that's another variable I feel you've omitted from your hypothesis. We're still very early into the new generation, I know it's been a year but look at it like this, very few titles which have been released thus far would have been initially designed and, for a decent portion of their production cycle, developed on final console hardware. I don't think we're going to see any real standout next-gen AAA successes, similar to those high profile titles previously listed in scope and scale, for some time yet.

    C14N wrote: »
    From when I started reading reviews in early 2006, after just a few months it was generally very easy to predict which AAA games would be getting the best scores. That's just no longer the case really, at least for me. I wouldn't have guessed Bayonetta 2 or Dark Souls 2 would get their 90s and I also wouldn't have ever guessed that Destiny would get its 76.
    Obviously this is going to be entirely subjective, but I wasn't in the least bit surprised Bayonetta 2 and Dark Souls 2 were so well received. Destiny, hmm, that could have gone either way I guess although worst case scenario I would have expected an 8. As for the other games you mentioned before, the only surprise there was AC: Unity but I was equally surprised at how broken the final product was so, in that respect, its final score wasn't particularly surprising.

    C14N wrote: »
    That's true I suppose but from what I saw of many of those games, what was delivered was so shockingly bad that there's no way they could have gotten good reviews. Not even just buggy on launch but generally very poorly executed games. That's compared to something like The Order which, from what I've heard has plenty of polish and production and plays well, but still gets criticised for its lack of originality. Two of the ones you mentioned (Fable and Rage) still got 80+ average scores. Call of Duty Ghosts was probably the biggest surprise before that though.
    Fundamentally broken, both technically and in terms of design, they may have been but those games were still the subject of massive amounts of hype and marketing yet failed to receive large scores. Fable III and Rage got very good scores but again, given their lineage, were still below what many expected, especially on the back of the hype preceding them. As for CoD, I only play them for the campaigns so my opinion on them is going to differ so wildly from most that I'm not even going to mention it. :o

    C14N wrote: »
    If, as an editor, you hire someone to write for you and then approve the review to go up on your site, that is an implicit endorsement of their opinion. In general, the websites are much better known than their staff members and most websites tend to have overall reputations for liking or disliking certain things. It's not at all unreasonable that someone would attribute a review to the site rather than the individual. If Bayonetta was criticised for misogyny on the site, it was probably something that most of the people there could agree was a problem with the game rather than one rogue writer acting alone.
    Now, I fundamentally disagree with this first part. How could an editor state that the opinion of one writer on a particular title reflects that of the site and all of its other writers? As I discussed with nesf above, I don't dispute what you go on to say about people's opinions on sites and the reviewers, I merely lament that is the case. People watch specific Youtubers because they feel that particular persons shares similar tastes to them when it comes to specific games or that they are just particularly good at examining or reviewing games in general. While that connection can often not be as strong on some other sites, I still don't see why it's not possible for readers to at least be able to identify some reviewers and their own personal leanings from reading their work. To reiterate the Bayonetta article, Gies expressed almost the same opinion on the first game for his Team XBox review back in 2010. Somehow I don't think that Team XBox could be seen as similarly "progressive" like Polygon. :)

    C14N wrote: »
    Well the thing is that things we call "clickbait" do generally get pageviews but they do it in ways that use hollow manipulation rather than quality content. Good practice would be to have a headline give you the gist of a story and expect the story is important or interesting enough to entice you to read more. A clickbait headline would usually just entice the viewer with vague sensationalism or the ever present list where a list is not needed. It gets people to click it because it activates a little dopamine rush. It works, especially because there are a lot of dumb people who fall for it every time or who just fail to notice that there is almost no content inside, but, much like selling cigarettes to children (to be hyperbolic here), what is profitable isn't always admirable. We generally depend on professionals to rise somewhat above the rabble and curate good content for us.

    It is a bit of a prisoner's though and it's probably hard for sites (especially new or smaller ones) to be principled and not do it, since they probably get a lot of revenue that they do need from doing it.
    Pretty sure one of the major editors discussed just this over the last while. Bsaically claiming that they needed to produce a large amount of content per day to generate traffic and it was acknowledged that a certain chunk of that would be lower quality content, likely the kind of crap Grumpypants mentioned above, but that those articles were necessary in order to support their own, more lengthy content. It's lamentable but understandable to be honest although when I was talking about clickbait I wasn't talking about the "...and you wouldn't believe what happened next" guff, more so the non-gaming orientated drama nonsense that's so prevalent these days.
    Kirby wrote: »
    Fable 3 is a good game and has no place on that list Gizmo....

    I'm sticking to my guns on this if anybody wants to throw down about it! :D
    Hah, I've not actually played it yet. I just listed it as I remember the internet losing it's collective **** that it was a massive step down from the previous games when it was released, along with the massive accompanying hypetrain.


    On a somewhat related note, I never knew Anthony Burch used to write for Destructoid. Anyway, here's an interesting piece for him on what he learned when he left that job and joined Gearbox. It also deals with some of the assumptions he made as a journalist, which also apply to consumers imo, and their opinions on various aspects of development.

    5 Things I Didn't Get About Making Video Games (Until I Did It)

    I swear it's not a clickbaity article :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Fract OST, Papers Please, Device 6, The Vanishing of Ethan Carter, The Swapper, Year Walk, The Sailor's Dream, Jazzpunk, FTL, 80 Days, Gone Home, Amnesia, Threes, The Banner Saga, Ridiculous Fishing, 30 Flights of Loving, Hohokum, Murasaki Baby, Always Sometimes Monsters, Journey, Transistor, Sportsfriends, Nidhogg, Spacechem, Spider, Waking Mars, Blackbar, Gunpoint, Papa & Yo, Minecraft (not independent anymore, but still), Proteus, Dear Esther, Shelter, Thomas Was Alone, The Stanley Parable, Don't Starve, Kentucky Route Zero, This War of Mine, Analogue: A Hate Story, The Path, Outlast, Sunless Sea, to name but a few...

    I too find this assumption that there is but one type of independent game pretty baffling.

    What about Banished? Easily one of my favourite games in recent years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭crybaby


    COYVB wrote: »
    Then you either misunderstand the term indie, or you're not looking properly. It irritates me for no good reason that people think "indie" is a genre. Or that it's an aesthetic. It's neither.

    I just don't like the way indie games get off the hook on a lot of stuff and I do honestly believe that people attach a level of importance to some games that just isn't warranted. Amnesia is the perfect example of a game that has no right to be so critically acclaimed since there is literally nothing remotely scary about it on the other hand Sunless Sea and Kentucky Route Zero look like good games and I am going to give them a go in the coming weeks. I am all for playing any game that is good but I would just like to see some better criticism of indie games.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    COYVB wrote: »
    Then you either misunderstand the term indie, or you're not looking properly. It irritates me for no good reason that people think "indie" is a genre. Or that it's an aesthetic. It's neither.

    Nah, I think people get the wrong idea because in fairness there are a ton of indie developers trading basically on nostalgic aesthetic. Certainly plenty of good stuff too mind but I could see how someone could get the wrong idea.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Also, one many project arena shooter that's apparently rather good from reviews (if you follow Youtube you've likely heard of this), plus great trailer:



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    nesf wrote: »
    Also, one many project arena shooter that's apparently rather good from reviews (if you follow Youtube you've likely heard of this), plus great trailer:

    <video>
    Aye, the Frozen Cortex guys were talking about it on Twitter. Amusingly enough both sports ball games ended up launching the same day after spending some time in Early Access.

    Speaking of FC and on the subject of games like these slipping under the radar, this is an interesting post with a very interesting figure from one of the Mode7 Games devs...
    Our last game, Frozen Synapse, was released in 2011, a time when just getting a game on Steam was a major achievement. Now, of the 4300-plus games on Steam, 2500 have been added in the last 18 months (stat from the superb @GriddleOctopus): it’s a different epoch.

    That's... a lot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    gizmo wrote: »
    That's... a lot.

    Does that include the one about Memes?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,430 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Links234 wrote: »
    What about Banished? Easily one of my favourite games in recent years.

    I am sure there are dozens and dozens of great games I missed, either because I simply forgot about them or I am not aware of them :pac: Also tried to avoid games that could be belong to well established genres (even though a lot of games do cool and impressive things within a familiar genre framework). And then there's that whole blurry 'what constitutes an indie?' question (Double Fine or Devolver Digital being good examples of a developer / published that blur the lines). Still, I think it all comes back to the point that there's pretty much something for everybody - from hardcore driving simulators or RTS games to more experimental or narrative-driven titles. Yes, an awful lot of crap too, but no shortage of impressive titles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    gizmo wrote: »
    That's... a lot.

    Yeah and it's a seriously problem, a very, very large percentage of new games coming onto Steam are just awful. There was one talked about at the end of the Co-Optional Podcast where they were like "um, aren't those RPG Maker sprites?" "Yeah" "Isn't that the default battle system from RPG Maker?" "Yeah" "How the hell is this on Steam asking for money?" "Oh, that publisher."


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    And then there's that whole blurry 'what constitutes an indie?' question (Double Fine or Devolver Digital being good examples of a developer / published that blur the lines).

    Hmm, I would've considered them indie, what's the argument for them not being so?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Links234 wrote: »
    Hmm, I would've considered them indie, what's the argument for them not being so?
    Double Fine are an independent developer and Devolver Digital are a publisher, there's no real argument to be had on that one. What may be blurring some people's definitions of "indie" is that something like Broken Age is an indie game but Hotline Miami isn't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    gizmo wrote: »
    Double Fine are an independent developer and Devolver Digital are a publisher, there's no real argument to be had on that one. What may be blurring some people's definitions of "indie" is that something like Broken Age is an indie game but Hotline Miami isn't.

    How come Hotline isn't. Is it because it's published by Devolver?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,353 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    How come Hotline isn't. Is it because it's published by Devolver?

    Pretty much. The definition of 'indie' is that it's independently publisher by the creators, it doesn't go through a publishing company. Of course over time that definition has become blurred just like with indie cinema.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,854 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Lads its bad enough trying to clasify indie devs lets not start with indie publishers :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    How come Hotline isn't. Is it because it's published by Devolver?
    Yup!

    Roughly speaking, if an independently owned developer releases a title themselves or funds the production of a title up to the point of release at which point they get a publisher to distribute the game or get on a specific storefront, then I'd regard it as an indie title. Others use various production values as a gauge, something I don't happen to agree with.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,430 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Just to confuse things further, Double Fine act as a semi-publisher with their Double Fine Presents... titles ;)

    It is all really just pedantry, of course.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Hmm, I would've always counted Hotline Miami as indie. Hotline Miami 2 is the first game I've actually pre-ordered in a very, very long time, last one was Dishonored.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Pretty much. The definition of 'indie' is that it's independently publisher by the creators, it doesn't go through a publishing company. Of course over time that definition has become blurred just like with indie cinema.

    And what happens when the developer owns the publisher and happens to publish other people's stuff too? Then there's the thing of how big an independent studio is allowed to get and still call itself an indie?

    It's nonsensical to think of "Indie" as any kind of clear subset of games, it's very blurry around the edges. "Not from a AAA major publisher" doesn't really work but it's close enough for most people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    nesf wrote: »
    And what happens when the developer owns the publisher and happens to publish other people's stuff too?

    Good point. Wouldn't that make Ubisoft Montreal's games indie, since they're published by Ubisoft?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    COYVB wrote: »
    Good point. Wouldn't that make Ubisoft Montreal's games indie, since they're published by Ubisoft?

    Usually AAA publishers are excluded automatically but yeah then we get into the fun game of deciding who is AAA or not. I was thinking more of Paradox's publishing arm and similar.

    It's a mess because "independent developer" covers everyone from that guy who made that Robot Rollerderby game I linked to CD Projekt Red and Paradox with good sized dev teams and plenty financing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    gizmo wrote: »
    Obviously this is going to be entirely subjective, but I wasn't in the least bit surprised Bayonetta 2 and Dark Souls 2 were so well received.

    Well both the games' predecessors received slightly lower scores and neither were close to the highest-scoring games at the time (Bayonetta was about the 10th highest rated when it came out, Dark Souls was even lower, both excluding mobile games and re-releases), which is why I didn't expect their sequels would both have higher scores and come 2nd and 3rd.
    gizmo wrote: »
    Now, I fundamentally disagree with this first part. How could an editor state that the opinion of one writer on a particular title reflects that of the site and all of its other writers?...People watch specific Youtubers because they feel that particular persons shares similar tastes to them when it comes to specific games or that they are just particularly good at examining or reviewing games in general.

    Really, the whole thing is generally a reflection of what the editor thinks and it's just a case that they will hire staff who approach things the same way as they do. The editor is the one with final say on what goes out and who decides the direction of the publication in general. They're like a director on a movie. Maybe the director didn't design that costume the sidekick is wearing but if they left it in the final film then they clearly thought it suited their vision enough to do so and if it's a huge sticking point where many people think the costume looks terrible then that's on the director for leaving it in there.

    Similarly, if a review on Polygon draws controversy, that's on Chris Grant. Regardless of who actually wrote it, he signed off on it and said that was the review he wanted to go up on his site. It's not user-submitted, he has to check these before they go up and if some opinion is wildly divergent from his own then he has the right to not publish it. The Bayonetta review was written by someone else but if he thought the claims of misogyny were silly or a bad reason to knock the game, then he shouldn't have put it up like that. Clearly he didn't though and he decided to let it fly. Maybe he didn't think they were as big a deal as the writer, maybe the thought they were an even bigger deal, but whatever it was, it was pretty close. If someone one the staff wrote a review saying it was fantastic because you get to see Bayonetta's bum a lot, he wouldn't have put that up because that kind of opinion is not what he wants Polygon to be known for. Polygon wants to be seen as a progressive site, so they're going to post reviews and columns that reflect this. You won't find anybody on Polygon complaining about how games like Gone Home are ruining the industry or that feminism is a big problem because they go against the editorial policy of the site.

    People treat Youtubers differently because their personality is much more the focus of the content and they're often one-person shows anyway. If you like Totalbiscuit's opinions, then you watch his channel where he says those opinions. He doesn't get others to make videos for him and, to the best of my knowledge, he doesn't usually write or record his reviews for anyone but himself. Even on something like the Escapist, Zero Punctuation is clearly defined as its own show by a guy with his own opinions and they have separate reviews of games for the site itself. They don't just occasionally say they'll get Yahtzee to write a review of a game for the site because they know he has an opinion that will probably vary wildly from the regular writers and he's not going to try and fit their mould.
    gizmo wrote: »
    when I was talking about clickbait I wasn't talking about the "...and you wouldn't believe what happened next" guff, more so the non-gaming orientated drama nonsense that's so prevalent these days.

    That's true I suppose. An awful lot of clickbait these days is just some half-baked opinion on a hot topic that's going to get page views because of controversy and stir up a storm in the comments.
    nesf wrote: »
    Yeah and it's a seriously problem, a very, very large percentage of new games coming onto Steam are just awful. There was one talked about at the end of the Co-Optional Podcast where they were like "um, aren't those RPG Maker sprites?" "Yeah" "Isn't that the default battle system from RPG Maker?" "Yeah" "How the hell is this on Steam asking for money?" "Oh, that publisher."

    Personally, I don't really take much issue with this, at least no more than I would with iTunes or Youtube hosting plenty of garbage. I mean if the stuff literally does not work or if it's falsely advertised (or even given the coveted front page spot) then I can see the issue but for the most part, I don't see why someone would just go around buying random games they've never heard of on Steam and only then find out that they aren't good. I mean, I wouldn't have done this at Gamespot or HMV before now, why start just because it's on Steam?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    C14N wrote: »
    Personally, I don't really take much issue with this, at least no more than I would with iTunes or Youtube hosting plenty of garbage. I mean if the stuff literally does not work or if it's falsely advertised (or even given the coveted front page spot) then I can see the issue but for the most part, I don't see why someone would just go around buying random games they've never heard of on Steam and only then find out that they aren't good. I mean, I wouldn't have done this at Gamespot or HMV before now, why start just because it's on Steam?

    Steam used to be extremely (overly) selective. People who've used the service for a good number of years remember when it didn't consist of a constant stream of crap. Valve opening the floodgates hasn't done people favours because we've just gone from "great Indie game can't get on Steam so can't reap the massive potential sales" to "great Indie game can't get noticed because of the massive influx of new games every day." The ideal is somewhere in the middle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    nesf wrote: »
    Steam used to be extremely (overly) selective. People who've used the service for a good number of years remember when it didn't consist of a constant stream of crap. Valve opening the floodgates hasn't done people favours because we've just gone from "great Indie game can't get on Steam so can't reap the massive potential sales" to "great Indie game can't get noticed because of the massive influx of new games every day." The ideal is somewhere in the middle.

    I kind of think that might have been down to the fact that Steam once just didn't have that much on it at all. I started using it 6 years ago and there was still garbage on it then. Indie games don't usually get their attention from just existing in the Steam store though, they'll get it from word of mouth or positive press or possibly get on the front page or in a Steam sale.

    Especially now that they've got this content curator thing where you can follow the opinions of people you trust, having Valve take the time to decide what is and isn't Steam-worthy seems kind of unnecessary. There's also the tough line to draw of what is and isn't acceptable to put on. Based on the top reviews for Gone Home, I'd say there are plenty of people who think that shouldn't be allowed on the store.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    C14N wrote: »
    I kind of think that might have been down to the fact that Steam once just didn't have that much on it at all. I started using it 6 years ago and there was still garbage on it then. Indie games don't usually get their attention from just existing in the Steam store though, they'll get it from word of mouth or positive press or possibly get on the front page or in a Steam sale.

    Especially now that they've got this content curator thing where you can follow the opinions of people you trust, having Valve take the time to decide what is and isn't Steam-worthy seems kind of unnecessary. There's also the tough line to draw of what is and isn't acceptable to put on. Based on the top reviews for Gone Home, I'd say there are plenty of people who think that shouldn't be allowed on the store.

    It's complicated. Before the floodgates were opened we had a few developers who could post stuff on Steam posting up crap. But it wasn't anything like it was today in terms of volume. Indie games that managed to get onto to Steam back then did very, very well for themselves because (according to them from interviews I've watched) they stayed on the front page of new releases for quite a while and this was worth a large chunk of sales to them. Now the front page cycles through very quickly.

    The curator system helps some bit but it puts the onus on a relatively small number of people with large audiences to spread the word and most Steam users don't follow people on the curator system (last time I heard). There is apparently a sales boost from being on some curator's lists but this brings us back the to current problem with getting your game noticed by prominent games journalists, Youtubers or Twitch streamers, which can cost quite a bit of money with some of the latter two and is hard because of the flood of "I can make one too!" titles from everywhere.


    The problem is visibility. The tagging system, curators, "similar to" stuff all helps to some bit but the core problem is it's still bloody hard to find games that may interest you on Steam yourself and you end up having to rely on journalists, Youtubers etc as above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    nesf wrote: »
    It's complicated. Before the floodgates were opened we had a few developers who could post stuff on Steam posting up crap. But it wasn't anything like it was today in terms of volume. Indie games that managed to get onto to Steam back then did very, very well for themselves because (according to them from interviews I've watched) they stayed on the front page of new releases for quite a while and this was worth a large chunk of sales to them. Now the front page cycles through very quickly.

    The curator system helps some bit but it puts the onus on a relatively small number of people with large audiences to spread the word and most Steam users don't follow people on the curator system (last time I heard). There is apparently a sales boost from being on some curator's lists but this brings us back the to current problem with getting your game noticed by prominent games journalists, Youtubers or Twitch streamers

    Well doesn't that just mean its gone from a system of trying to get Valve to notice you to trying to get whoever is big on Twitch to notice you? On top of that, new indie games do still regularly get frontpaged (practically all of my front page is indie games, very few of which I had heard of before but very few of which look like The War Z either) or Steam Sale-d and I'm sure they still get their sizable sales spikes from that. I get that it used to be more prestigious as an indie to get your game on Steam but I doubt that even then, many people were leafing through the hundreds/thousands of games in the catalogue to find something new instead of just finding out about it because it was advertised on the main page.

    Personally, I think it's great now. You can find the utter trash but, in my experience, it's all stuck underneath a thick layer of good stuff that Valve still try to promote. On top of that, their new recommendation system is great and with the user-review tally they added in a while ago, you can tell pretty fast when a game is a real stinker, which is good because a lot of indies don't get critic reviews to check out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    C14N wrote: »
    Well doesn't that just mean its gone from a system of trying to get Valve to notice you to trying to get whoever is big on Twitch to notice you? On top of that, new indie games do still regularly get frontpaged (practically all of my front page is indie games, very few of which I had heard of before but very few of which look like The War Z either) or Steam Sale-d and I'm sure they still get their sizable sales spikes from that. I get that it used to be more prestigious as an indie to get your game on Steam but I doubt that even then, many people were leafing through the hundreds/thousands of games in the catalogue to find something new instead of just finding out about it because it was advertised on the main page.

    Personally, I think it's great now. You can find the utter trash but, in my experience, it's all stuck underneath a thick layer of good stuff that Valve still try to promote. On top of that, their new recommendation system is great and with the user-review tally they added in a while ago, you can tell pretty fast when a game is a real stinker, which is good because a lot of indies don't get critic reviews to check out.

    I agree with much of what you say, the issue is the front page coverage has been greatly reduced due to the greater number of games getting on and what's come to replace it. Mostly the issue is noise, some of this is certainly Steam pushing Early Access so hard where we get a *lot* of half-baked ideas put on sale. The tagging system is the one I'd most like to start working properly but at the moment with the amount of joke tagging and similar it's not hugely useful for discovering new games. Curators are good, but they're basically a shortlist of games from Youtubers I watch anyway so I don't gain a whole load from them. User reviews are kinda handy but often they can be very misleading due to trolling or people being idiots and complaining about a problem noted in the game's description as something they're still working on. I find the recommendation system doesn't work for me as no matter how many times I tell Steam that I'm not interested it keeps shoving FPS games in my face (I assume because most of my friend's list are FPS fans). Mostly I just think Steam haven't cracked the visibility problem yet and have a fair ways to go if they'll leave anyone put stuff on the system.


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