Need help for choosing a monitored alarm system

jmb1

Hi,


I am currently getting quotes for a monitored alarm system, and would welcome advices.


Is an outside box able to ring useful when there is a burglar?
I would think that a silent or only blinking box would be enough as a deterrent.


Would you prefer connexion by a GSM, or by the UPC line ?
The disadvantage of the GSM may be to keep the SIM alive.
The disadvantage of the UPC line may be the impossibility to send text, and the need to keep the UPC box On all the time.


Are there significant differences between Visonic PowerMax Express and HKC Quantum 70 ?


Is it useful to put controls on all windows, or are motion sensors sufficient ?


Is it important to know the monitoring company, are there some monitoring companies to be avoided ?


Am I missing something important here ?


Thank you very much

KoolKid

jmb1 wrote: »

Hi,


I am currently getting quotes for a monitored alarm system, and would welcome advices.


Is an outside box able to ring useful when there is a burglar?

Yes , it is a must IMO. Not only from the deterrent point of view, it also makes the alarm easier to silence. All external bells should have their own batteries. That way they can not be easily silenced by disconnecting from inside the house.

jmb1 wrote: »

Would you prefer connexion by a GSM, or by the UPC line ?
The disadvantage of the GSM may be to keep the SIM alive.
The disadvantage of the UPC line may be the impossibility to send text, and the need to keep the UPC box On all the time.

Both have their own limitations,
GSM can be easily & cheaply jammed. UPC can not send texts , but you can use a voice dialler. The down side is UPC is dependent on mains power. In the event of a power cut you will get no notifications.

jmb1 wrote: »

Are there significant differences between Visonic PowerMax Express and HKC Quantum 70 ?

See these threads here for more on this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056676093
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056676131
The main difference between Visonic Powermax & Powermaster is the Powermax wireless is one way , the Powermaster is 2 way.

jmb1 wrote: »

Is it useful to put controls on all windows, or are motion sensors sufficient ?

IMO as a minimum you should have all ground floor & accessible windows protected by both inertia shock sensors & magnetic contacts.
This should be backed up internally by 1 or 2 PiRs.
Using PiRs alone means someone has to be in the house before the alarm activates. Inertia sensors deter at an earlier time before entry is gained thus reducing damage caused also.

jmb1 wrote: »

Is it important to know the monitoring company, are there some monitoring companies to be avoided ?

You will need to know the monitoring station & details to contact them for various reasons like cancelling false alarms , changing key holder details etc.

jmb1 wrote: »

Am I missing something important here ?

The one other thing I would suggest is read the small print & what's covered with service contracts. Some companies offer annual maintenance but limit the calls to 2. This is insufficient IMO. One call is going to be done regardless as an annual service. Should you have a problem after that & its not sorted in one call or in a set period of time you will be liable for additional charges.
Annual maintenance should cover all calls needed to maintain the system to the correct standards. Shop around, in many cases full maintenance is as cheap or cheaper than these limited contracts.

jmb1

Hi Koolkid,

Thank you very much for your response and for the links.

One more question, I am sometimes told that an alarm system is mainly a deterrent, and that houses with an alarm system are usually not burglarized.
What do you think ?

KoolKid

jmb1 wrote: »

Hi Koolkid,

Thank you very much for your response and for the links.

One more question, I am sometimes told that an alarm system is mainly a deterrent, and that houses with an alarm system are usually not burglarized.
What do you think ?

The majority of break in are by opportunists. They are looking for the easy target. Either no alarm or one that's not set.

jmb1

Another question.
Are there people who play to knock at the doors or windows to make the alarm go off ?
Should it happen, then I would guess it would be common that Garda comes for nothing.
It would also be a case against door and windows protection.
What do you think ?

KoolKid

jmb1 wrote: »

Another question.
Are there people who play to knock at the doors or windows to make the alarm go off ?
Should it happen, then I would guess it would be common that Garda comes for nothing.
It would also be a case against door and windows protection.
What do you think ?

Modern alarms work on a system of alarm verification. On a single zone activation we contact the site and keyholders.
On more than one zone activating we contact the Guards.

jmb1

KoolKid wrote: »

Modern alarms work on a system of alarm verification. On a single zone activation we contact the site and keyholders.
On more than one zone activating we contact the Guards.

Hi Koolkid,

Let's assume my alarm gets activated, I am abroad, and for some reason, I can't contact the neighbors.
If I have door sensors, It may be a false alarm due to someone having knocked at the door. It may also be that a burglar has broken the front door and entered my house, and is currently inactivating the alarm system to be able to move freely in the house.
But if I have only motion sensors, then I am sure someone is in the house, and I can tell the monitoring station to contact the garda immediately.
Does it make sense ?

But are the insurances happy if the house is only covered by motion sensors ?
The booklet of my insurance says nothing about that.

And do the motion sensors see over the windows ? Will it react if a cat is walking in my garden ?

KoolKid

jmb1 wrote: »

Hi Koolkid,

Let's assume my alarm gets activated, I am abroad, and for some reason, I can't contact the neighbors.
If I have door sensors, It may be a false alarm due to someone having knocked at the door. It may also be that a burglar has broken the front door and entered my house, and is currently inactivating the alarm system to be able to move freely in the house.
But if I have only motion sensors, then I am sure someone is in the house, and I can tell the monitoring station to contact the garda immediately.
Does it make sense ?

But are the insurances happy if the house is only covered by motion sensors ?
The booklet of my insurance says nothing about that.

And do the motion sensors see over the windows ? Will it react if a cat is walking in my garden ?

Generally we would recommend perimeter protection with sensors and contacts and PiRs in say the hall and landing to verify an alarm.

jmb1

KoolKid wrote: »

Generally we would recommend perimeter protection with sensors and contacts and PiRs in say the hall and landing to verify an alarm.

When a burglar enters in the house, does the alarm phone and call the monitoring center immediately ?
Or does it let, say 30 seconds, to inactivate it via the panel, so that when I enter in my house, I have enough time to inactivate it ?
In that case, can't the burglar enter the house, cut the cable between the panel and the UPC modem, the other cables, and then steal freely ?

KoolKid

On any system if they can locate & disconnect the monitoring source then yes the monitoring is useless. They would need some prior knowledge of the set up though.
Like what is being used for monitoring?
Eircom line?
UPC?
VOIP?
IP?
GSM?
Radio?

All could be coming from various locations.
If there is internal sensors you will activate an alarm quicker if you vary off the entry/exit route.Ideally the panel & signalling equipment should be located within a fully secured area where you will need to create a confirmed alarm before accessing it.

At the end of the day, if you put your mind to it there will always be a scenario that the alarm will fail. In a domestic application the average burglar doesn't go to a hell of a lot of bother.

jmb1

I had a look at the Garda policy :
http://www.isia.ie/sites/go2isiasite/files/Garda%20Alarm%20Policy%2009%2009%2008_0.pdf

So, if I am abroad, even if the monitoring station calls me, I need the alarm to have been verified (either a second device to have sent a signal, or someone to have confirmed the intrusion), and a keyholder to be there when the garda arrives.

In other words, I need to rely on a neighbor (and the monitoring station has no added value).

Or I need to rely on the alarm system to deter a burglar to enter in the house
And if a burglar enters, I am left to hope that the noise made by the siren to make him run away

Am I wrong somewhere ?

KoolKid

In reality call-outs are at the discretion of the Gardai.
There are still many alarms getting Garda response on both verified & unverified alarms without keyholders present.
If you are away a lot you can also employ a security company to act as keyholders for you . These will respond to all alarms.

fclauson

You could also set up a local text alert service - it's very effective - in the event there is an "incident" then the co-ord of the service sends out a text to 300 locals

hexosan

If your this worried about the thought of been broken into, I can only imagine what you'd be like if it happens.

The simplest way to look at security is this, no matter what system you install if a burglar wants to get in they'll get in. All you can do is make your home less of an easy target. So when the burglar looks at your house & your neighbours he decides to go for your neighbours instead.

One of the simplest things people can do is close the gates to their house because the vast majority of these opportunistic criminals are mobile and they drive in around the yards of houses. They beep the horn and knock doors, if no one appears they're out and into the house. If somone does appear theyre looking for a lost dog, directions ...... (Insert whatever excuse you want) in general they are lazy and if the gate is closed/locked they simple drive down the road to the next open gate way and try there

jmb1

KoolKid wrote: »

In reality call-outs are at the discretion of the Gardai.
There are still many alarms getting Garda response on both verified & unverified alarms without keyholders present.

Hi KoolKid,

For me, it is a bit hard to buy something (alarm monitoring) the value of which relies on the hope that the garda will not follow their established policy.

Another question, about the wired HKC external siren
Do you know whether it has a back-up battery, so that it can ring even when the cable has been cut ?
On the specification, it doesn't mention it, but the installer I am in touch with told me it has one.

KoolKid

My take on monitoring is I have it for Garda response to a PA situation. You will get priority response for that. Every thing else, myself or keyholders will handle.
All external bells have back up batteries.

jmb1

KoolKid wrote: »

My take on monitoring is I have it for Garda response to a PA situation. You will get priority response for that. Every thing else, myself or keyholders will handle.

Could you please explain that again ?
What is PA ?

KoolKid wrote: »

All external bells have back up batteries.

Good news !

Evolution1

Id go for the GSM unit over the UPC line .
If the gsm is jammed the alarm will sound . If the UPC line is cut the alarm won't sound until a sensor is tripped .
A UPC line can be disabled with a pair of scissors and is dependant on mains power. Also if you want to upgrade to UPC horizon you'll have to run the phone line to wherever your UPC box is .

Response to alarm activations from guards are poor . External bells are ignored ( how often do they ring in the estate) they are more annoying than anything else . There's no benefit for them to be ringing as long as do ..
The comfort lights and the initial sound of the bell activating might be enough to scare them off .


You might be better off having the system text yourself and a neighbour / family member ect . You'll get a faster response time .... About 2hours for the guards .

For Panic attack alarms the monitoring station may still contact the home phone

jmb1

Evolution1 wrote: »

If the UPC line is cut the alarm won't sound until a sensor is tripped .

Hi Evolution1,
I would think that the alarm will ring if a sensor is tripped, and the panel is not inactivated in 30 seconds...regardless of whether the UPC line is cut.
If the UPC line is cut, the panel will only not be able to ring me.
Am I missing something ?

But, if the alarm is ringing, do you think a burglar will stay in the house, even if he has cut the UPC line ?

KoolKid

A few inaccuracies here I feel I must correct.

Evolution1 wrote: »

Id go for the GSM unit over the UPC line .
If the gsm is jammed the alarm will sound

Siemens alarms, and many others, could be programmed to activate in the event of a line fault regardless of the comms path.

Evolution1 wrote: »

If the UPC line is cut the alarm won't sound until a sensor is tripped .
A UPC line can be disabled with a pair of scissors and is dependant on mains power. Also if you want to upgrade to UPC horizon you'll have to run the phone line to wherever your UPC box is .

Whether a UPC line lost registers a fault would be dependent on where the line was lost from.Also what type of monitoring is being used would determine whether a fault is raised both locally or in a monitoring station. The UPC line could also be tampered in many ways. GSM signals can be jammed without any physical tampering & from a distance before you even approach the property. In my experience installing I have come across phone lines cut & I've come across GSMs being jammed. To date I have not come across any tampering of a UPC line.

Evolution1 wrote: »

A UPC line can be disabled with a pair of scissors

Thats some scissors to cut through external coax.:eek:

Evolution1 wrote: »

Also if you want to upgrade to UPC horizon you'll have to run the phone line to wherever your UPC box is .

Also not true. If you upgrade from UPC broadband with phone you can keep your existing phone line & modem location.

Evolution1 wrote: »

Response to alarm activations from guards are poor . External bells are ignored ( how often do they ring in the estate) they are more annoying than anything else . There's no benefit for them to be ringing as long as do ..
The comfort lights and the initial sound of the bell activating might be enough to scare them off .

The benefit of an external bell is the system can not be silenced instantly by removing the mains power & battery.

Evolution1 wrote: »

For Panic attack alarms the monitoring station may still contact the home phone

The correct protocol for a panic alarm activation is for no call to be made to site & the Guards to be contacted directly instantly. Also bear in mind , any variation on protocol can be agreed in writing between the customer & the monitoring station providing it doesn't breach their own policies.

Evolution1

jmb1 wrote: »

Hi Evolution1,
I would think that the alarm will ring if a sensor is tripped, and the panel is not inactivated in 30 seconds...regardless of whether the UPC line is cut.
If the UPC line is cut, the panel will only not be able to ring me.
Am I missing something ?

But, if the alarm is ringing, do you think a burglar will stay in the house, even if he has cut the UPC line ?

That's what I was saying if the line is cut the alarm will not sound until a sensor is tripped ..
He/she probably won't spend as long inside the house with the sounder going . They sometimes sit and wait to see if anyone comes
2 hours for the guards or a few mins for a neighbour who got a text

KoolKid

jmb1 wrote: »

Could you please explain that again ?

This is my personal view of monitoring. I have it for Garda response in the event of a panic situation(PA=Panic Alarm). Most other alarms are handled by myself , by keyholders or by rearming and investigating the system remotely.

If I pay €300 per year for Monitoring /Maintenance for 10 years without incident & in year 11 there is an attack on me or a member of my family & that panic alarm gets the response that saves them/us then IMO that was €3300 well spent.
If you disagree then text alerts or voice diallers is what you want.
Because that's the one thing they won't give you.

Evolution1

KoolKid wrote: »

A few inaccuracies here I feel I must correct.




Siemens alarms, and many others, could be programmed to activate in the event of a line fault regardless of the comms path.


you'll be harassed with line faults on upc.


Whether a UPC line lost registers a fault would be dependent on where the line was lost from.Also what type of monitoring is being used would determine whether a fault is raised both locally or in a monitoring station. The UPC line could also be tampered in many ways. GSM signals can be jammed without any physical tampering & from a distance before you even approach the property. In my experience installing I have come across phone lines cut & I've come across GSMs being jammed. To date I have not come across any tampering of a UPC line.

**** yes and it will sound the alarm on a gsm fault within 60 secs****
gsm wont fail if the mains goes upc will .
connecting to upc lines is only coming about . only a matter of time till
there cut ...

Thats some scissors to cut through external coax.:eek:

*****no need to be confused . its not steel they're cutting through .****

Also not true. If you upgrade from UPC broadband with phone you can keep your existing phone line & modem location.

*******the new horizon box has the broadband, phone and tv combined all in one unit .*******

The benefit of an external bell is the system can not be silenced instantly by removing the mains power & battery.

****** simply connect the battery to it .*******



The correct protocol for a panic alarm activation is for no call to be made to site & the Guards to be contacted directly instantly. Also bear in mind , any variation on protocol can be agreed in writing between the customer & the monitoring station providing it doesn't breach their own policies.

**** we had this debate in another thread and an employee of a mon station confirmed they do sometimes call the house *******

jmb1

KoolKid wrote: »

This is my personal view of monitoring. I have it for Garda response in the event of a panic situation(PA=Panic Alarm). Most other alarms are handled by myself , by keyholders or by rearming and investigating the system remotely.

If I pay €300 per year for Monitoring /Maintenance for 10 years without incident & in year 11 there is an attack on me or a member of my family & that panic alarm gets the response that saves them/us then IMO that was €3300 well spent.
If you disagree then text alerts or voice diallers is what you want.
Because that's the one thing they won't give you.

Hi KoolKid,
Thank you very much for the explanation.
But does it sometimes happen that someone comes to people's home to attack them ?

KoolKid

Evolution1 wrote: »

you'll be harassed with line faults on upc.

No you won't .
I have UPC and I get the very odd one.

Evolution1 wrote: »

connecting to upc lines is only coming about . only a matter of time till
there cut ...

Been doing it for years.
How long are you installing again??
(You never seem to answer that one do you?

Evolution1 wrote: »

*******the new horizon box has the broadband, phone and tv combined all in one unit .*******

Still arguing for the sake of it are we.?
I Have got Horizon installed last week & I did not have to move my existing UPC line. Please do your research before starting your petty arguments again.

Evolution1 wrote: »

****** simply connect the battery to it .*******

Again in my years installing I have seen panels ripped off the wall, I have seen phone lines ripped out, I've even seen fuse boards ripped off the wall. But I've never seen some burglar disconnect an alarm & arrive with a battery to reconnect & silence a bell..

Evolution1 wrote: »

**** we had this debate in another thread and an employee of a mon station confirmed they do sometimes call the house *******

One employee in one station. Its not the norm.
How many monitored alarms do you have connected & how many stations do you have contracts with?
The normal protocol on an panic alarm is to call the guards. Makes no sense to ring a site and have a customer whose being threatened cancel the call under duress.

jmb1 wrote: »

Hi KoolKid,
Thank you very much for the explanation.
But does it sometimes happen that someone comes to people's home to attack them ?

Unfortunately , in the society we live in, yes it does happen.

Evolution1

KoolKid wrote: »

No you won't .
I have UPC and I get the very odd one.
*** glad you agree your getting faults , more areas are more problematic.******


Been doing it for years.
How long are you installing again??
(You never seem to answer that one do you?

*****ive answered that before , go look for it .*******
regardless ive still proven you wrong a few times . how many years are you doing this ????





Still arguing for the sake of it are we.?
I Have got Horizon installed last week & I did not have to move my existing UPC line. Please do your research before starting your petty arguments again.

*****i never said you'd have to move the upc line , you'll have to have your phone line running to the horizon box in the sitting room.
you seem to be having an issue with everyone else starting these'' petty arguments ". again i do my research both theory and practical *****

Again in my years installing I have seen panels ripped off the wall, I have seen phone lines ripped out, I've even seen fuse boards ripped off the wall. But I've never seen some burglar disconnect an alarm & arrive with a battery to reconnect & silence a bell..

***again it would be common sense to use the battery already in the panel ,
why on earth would he/she bring one with him? or they could simply blow the bell off the mains *****


One employee in one station. Its not the norm.
How many monitored alarms do you have connected & how many stations do you have contracts with?
The normal protocol on an panic alarm is to call the guards. Makes no sense to ring a site and have a customer whose being threatened cancel the call under duress.

*** i believe said employee worked for a very well known company and used the term 'WE' , generally meaning other employees .

Unfortunately , in the society we live in, yes it does happen.

.

KoolKid

Evolution1 wrote: »

*** glad you agree your getting faults , more areas are more problematic.******

You are going to get faults with every service provider. It would be silly for me to say never.
I have come across no more line faults with UPC than any other provider.

Evolution1 wrote: »

*****ive answered that before , go look for it .*******
regardless ive still proven you wrong a few times . how many years are you doing this ????

Perhaps the rights and wrongs & your contradictions could wait for another thread. I really have tons of content for that.
The truth is you have little or no experience & you love to argue here just for the sake of it and here's the proof below.

Evolution1 wrote: »

*****i never said you'd have to move the upc line , you'll have to have your phone line running to the horizon box in the sitting room.
you seem to be having an issue with everyone else starting these'' petty arguments ". again i do my research both theory and practical *****

You need to do your research here more.For the 3rd time you are wrong here.
Are you just going to keep arguing with me or look into it. Because your just looking silly now. Do I need to invite you into my house & show you it?

Evolution1 wrote: »

***again it would be common sense to use the battery already in the panel ,
why on earth would he/she bring one with him? or they could simply blow the bell off the mains *****

If you ever get to work in this industry & get some years experience you will realise with burglars common sense doesn't come into it.
Again in my experience (Over 20 years) I've never once seen this done.
Never seen them connect mains to blow the bell of the wall either.
You really do come up with some crazy ideas. Your not a burglar are you??;)

Evolution1 wrote: »

*** i believe said employee worked for a very well known company and used the term 'WE' , generally meaning other employees .

Dodging the question again I see...
How many monitoring station do you do business with on a daily basis?
How many stations have you contacts with?
I deal with most , have been in plenty & set up many different protocols for different customers needs & situations.
I'm telling you calling the site on a PA activation is not the norm.
Now you can either accept what I'm saying or keep arguing over & over. Its up to you.
But I'll give you 1 more bit of advice while I'm here.
Stop pretending to be something your not and stop trying to pass yourself off as something your not,.
People are coming on here looking for good information not false misleading statements from someone with little or no experience just looking to argue.
your inexperience is really showing in these unresearched statements your making.

Evolution1

KoolKid wrote: »

You are going to get faults with every service provider. It would be silly for me to say never.
I have come across no more line faults with UPC than any other provider.



Perhaps the rights and wrongs & your contradictions could wait for another thread. I really have tons of content for that.
The truth is you have little or no experience & you love to argue here just for the sake of it and here's the proof below.


You need to do your research here more.For the 3rd time you are wrong here.
Are you just going to keep arguing with me or look into it. Because your just looking silly now. Do I need to invite you into my house & show you it?


If you ever get to work in this industry & get some years experience you will realise with burglars common sense doesn't come into it.
Again in my experience (Over 20 years) I've never once seen this done.
Never seen them connect mains to blow the bell of the wall either.
You really do come up with some crazy ideas. Your not a burglar are you??;)



Dodging the question again I see...
How many monitoring station do you do business with on a daily basis?
How many stations have you contacts with?
I deal with most , have been in plenty & set up many different protocols for different customers needs & situations.
I'm telling you calling the site on a PA activation is not the norm.
Now you can either accept what I'm saying or keep arguing over & over. Its up to you.
But I'll give you 1 more bit of advice while I'm here.
Stop pretending to be something your not and stop trying to pass yourself off as something your not,.
People are coming on here looking for good information not false misleading statements from someone with little or no experience just looking to argue.
your inexperience is really showing in these unresearched statements your making.

Your house is the last place I'd want to go ..... I'm not pretending to be anything or pass to be anything
You say burglars aren't the smartest and are opportunists but then say they're going to have a GSM jammer.... ?!?!
If you don't agree with someone you go all high and mighty ... Times are changing .. Your experience is based on older systems (20 years +) of doing the same thing over and over again . So it's fair to say we are equal on new systems .

You install alarm panels ..there's nothing difficult about them .. You're not an electronic engineer .They all do the same thing at the end of the day ....

You've lost all credibility IMO

KoolKid

Evolution1 wrote: »

Your house is the last place I'd want to go ..... I'm not pretending to be anything or pass to be anything
You say burglars aren't the smartest and are opportunists but then say they're going to have a GSM jammer.... ?!?!
If you don't agree with someone you go all high and mighty ... Times are changing .. Your experience is based on older systems (20 years +) of doing the same thing over and over again . So it's fair to say we are equal on new systems .

You install alarm panels ..there's nothing difficult about them .. You're not an electronic engineer .They all do the same thing at the end of the day ....

You've lost all credibility IMO

But I'm not the one that is making totally unsubstantiated claims. So what's you verdict now on the UPC phone claims you made.?
You are pretending you know about alarms and security. Clearly you have little or no experience or knowledge of the industry. You are coming up with ridiculous scenarios that anyone in the industry knows never happens. Re the GSM jammers. I have experience of these being used,
I have no experience of some of the crazy examples you are coming out with. Burglars are not electronic engineers. But they do know how to use technology as basic and cheap as a phone jammer.

jmb1

KoolKid wrote: »

Generally we would recommend perimeter protection with sensors and contacts and PiRs in say the hall and landing to verify an alarm.

Hi Koolkid,
Why is it so ?
1) The need to verify an alarm only makes sense if you are under monitoring, in which case you need 2 signals. Otherwise, why should there be a need to verify an alarm ? Is there a risk of false alarms if you don't use a shock detector ?
2) PIRs can be seen by the burglar when he looks in the house by the window. Contacts on the window can't.

Scortho

to clarify Koolkid I was that employee.

if the alarm had no urn, it'd be key holders then house phone no.

If the alarm had a urn, then itd be gardaí straight away.

Sometimes however (say a pharmacy or a bookies in a dodgy area) then garda would be rang but it wasnt standard to ring garda if it had no urn.